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England u21’s v Switzerland 2pm


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Was I the only one shouting at the TV when Hudson-Odoi had that hissy fit about his boot coming off?

He sulked around the halfway line looking like some injured animal, unable to put his own boot back on. Then when the ball came near him he had that miraculous recovery only an injured footballer gets.

But when he lost the ball cheaply he was hurt again. 

His petulance went on and on with him just meandering around until some poor member of the England back room staff sprinted around the pitch with a new pair of boots. 

The icing on the cake was when he came back onto the pitch without the refs permission and got booked 

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On 25/03/2021 at 22:34, WolfOfWestStreet said:

I'm not going to overact after one game. The players are a good and I'm optimistic that many of this squad will go on to good things. 

I agree with you, but for the life of me I can't understand why players that look world beaters playing for their club can look so ineffectual playing for their country, we really did look clueless at times, the coach (management) must I assume take some of the blame. 

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16 minutes ago, pillred said:

I agree with you, but for the life of me I can't understand why players that look world beaters playing for their club can look so ineffectual playing for their country, we really did look clueless at times, the coach (management) must I assume take some of the blame. 

Because at club level they’re playing with better teammates than their England ones.  😉😉😉

I joke, but going back some years, did Gerrard have Torres, or Lampard have Drogba to pass to when playing for England?

Personally I think until recently our technique has let us down.  We now have Foden etc coming through who can play off either foot, work in crowded areas and retain the ball, etc.  For too long our players and their physical and industrial attributes have complimented the technical overseas players.  Ok, that’s a massive generalisation, but you see our failings when we come up a good technical opposition, whether they’re a Germany or lesser nation.  Sometimes we win through, but boy do we have what are perceived to be poor results / performances against these sides.  I’m not convinced that we are as good as we think we are, nor do we ever think we are underdogs either.

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Because at club level they’re playing with better teammates than their England ones.  😉😉😉

I joke, but going back some years, did Gerrard have Torres, or Lampard have Drogba to pass to when playing for England?

Personally I think until recently our technique has let us down.  We now have Foden etc coming through who can play off either foot, work in crowded areas and retain the ball, etc.  For too long our players and their physical and industrial attributes have complimented the technical overseas players.  Ok, that’s a massive generalisation, but you see our failings when we come up a good technical opposition, whether they’re a Germany or lesser nation.  Sometimes we win through, but boy do we have what are perceived to be poor results / performances against these sides.  I’m not convinced that we are as good as we think we are, nor do we ever think we are underdogs either.

Very true, did you know we are favourites for the upcoming Euros at the bookies? that's the British public for you, blind faith or the usual over optimism? we shall have to wait and see.

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16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Because at club level they’re playing with better teammates than their England ones.  😉😉😉

I joke, but going back some years, did Gerrard have Torres, or Lampard have Drogba to pass to when playing for England?

Personally I think until recently our technique has let us down.  We now have Foden etc coming through who can play off either foot, work in crowded areas and retain the ball, etc.  For too long our players and their physical and industrial attributes have complimented the technical overseas players.  Ok, that’s a massive generalisation, but you see our failings when we come up a good technical opposition, whether they’re a Germany or lesser nation.  Sometimes we win through, but boy do we have what are perceived to be poor results / performances against these sides.  I’m not convinced that we are as good as we think we are, nor do we ever think we are underdogs either.

Our so called 'Golden Generation' could not pass the ball and only looked dangerous on set pieces. 

I think how many look back at Gerrard is slightly inaccurate. I don't think his best was when in a normal midfield role, like when he was alongside Hammann.

He was in his absolute prime in behind Torres, almost like a free role with Macherano and Alonso behind him. Even hard working disciplined wide players like Kuyt in the side. Gerrard had absolutely loads of freedom to roam right and left and up top. But because of his physical strength, speed and work rate and tackling ability, he would do a great defensive job, but generally from much further forward than the 2 behind him.

So for England he was played in a midfield 2 in a 442. Lampard often being the other.

And very similar for Lampard at Chelsea though slightly different in shape. One holder in someone like Makelele, 2 box to box in Lampard and one other but Lampard having more of a licence of the 2. He'd be constantly in and around the opposing box. The likes of Makelele and Drogba and of course Robben who was fantastic, it meant Lampard could mainly concentrate on working hard, and attacking the opposing box and scoring goals and setting up goals.

It was ridiculous imo that Carrick or Hargreaves did not play more. Carrick in particular. Pep has said Carrick was as good as all the others like Busquets. But in this country the media and fans were obsessed with goals and assists, not realising that you need those deeper that will not be getting those goals and assists to let the likes of Lampard and Gerrard do what they do for their clubs.

We generally went with 442 back then. Which is not so much of a problem and can be a very solid shape defensively. But with wingers and central midfielders wanting to get forward it, it didn't look right. Players in roles they didn't look comfortable in.

I also think we had a problem in thinking we were better than we were, including the manager and players. If only a manager could have seen our strengths were in having physically strong, hard working players, very good defenders, but not capable of outplaying our opponents.

We should have set up to be solid, almost Mourinho like and realise that once we get the ball in and around the opposing box on the break we'd have the players capable of scoring. And always being so dangerous on set pieces. It was often actually our defending as a team that let us down back then. 

For me only one player was absolutely world class at international level in his England performances and that was Ashley Cole. Consistently superb and even better in the big games against the very best up against him like Ronaldo in those Portugal games or Arteta in that 1-0 win against Argentina.

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Thought Gary Neville was top drawer too.  We had other good players too.  But pegs and holes springs to mind.  Erickson to some extent played players on tactical fit rather than name.  Trevor Sinclair LW for example.

Under Schteeeve he dropped Beckham and played Gerrard RM/W with Crouch and Defoe up top, Downing LM/W.

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6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thought Gary Neville was top drawer too.  We had other good players too.  But pegs and holes springs to mind.  Erickson to some extent played players on tactical fit rather than name.  Trevor Sinclair LW for example.

Under Schteeeve he dropped Beckham and played Gerrard RM/W with Crouch and Defoe up top, Downing LM/W.

Yeah Gary Neville was a reliable right back. He missed the 2002 world cup, but he generally did well for England.

Yeah I remember Sinclair having a great game against Argentina. I don't think we had many options in that tournament to play there. Gerrard missed the tournament. Lampard was not yet that good. So at least that allowed Scholes to play centrally alongside Butt, not having to shift him out wide.

To be fair we didn't do too badly in that tournament. Struggled against Sweden but held on for a point, a bore 0-0 against Nigeria to ensure we made the knockouts. But a fantastic 1-0 win over Argentina, one of my all time favourite England wins. And a convincing 3-0 win against Denmark before Brazil game.

That Brazil side we lost to were sensational. But Ronaldinho did get sent off and we looked no better even against 10 men. Completely outclassed.

I think it was that tournament that Beckham stories all over the press every day leading up to it about his injury. He was so clearly unfit and played so poorly. It was a big problem with Erikssen, he just had to play those star names.

The team you say there. I can't remember how often Gerrard played wide right. But I do remember one home game at some premier League ground where Gerrard played wide right, Downing left and Defoe and crouch up top and we we thrashed someone, Poland maybe? But he seemed to move away from that idea for some reason. Gerrard was good on the right to be fair.

Good memories of England back then. Plenty of painful ones as well!

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Yeah Gary Neville was a reliable right back. He missed the 2002 world cup, but he generally did well for England.

Yeah I remember Sinclair having a great game against Argentina. I don't think we had many options in that tournament to play there. Gerrard missed the tournament. Lampard was not yet that good. So at least that allowed Scholes to play centrally alongside Butt, not having to shift him out wide.

To be fair we didn't do too badly in that tournament. Struggled against Sweden but held on for a point, a bore 0-0 against Nigeria to ensure we made the knockouts. But a fantastic 1-0 win over Argentina, one of my all time favourite England wins. And a convincing 3-0 win against Denmark before Brazil game.

That Brazil side we lost to were sensational. But Ronaldinho did get sent off and we looked no better even against 10 men. Completely outclassed.

I think it was that tournament that Beckham stories all over the press every day leading up to it about his injury. He was so clearly unfit and played so poorly. It was a big problem with Erikssen, he just had to play those star names.

The team you say there. I can't remember how often Gerrard played wide right. But I do remember one home game at some premier League ground where Gerrard played wide right, Downing left and Defoe and crouch up top and we we thrashed someone, Poland maybe? But he seemed to move away from that idea for some reason. Gerrard was good on the right to be fair.

Good memories of England back then. Plenty of painful ones as well!

Greece....European Champs....4-0 / 4-1 something like that.

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9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Because at club level they’re playing with better teammates than their England ones.  😉😉😉

I joke, but going back some years, did Gerrard have Torres, or Lampard have Drogba to pass to when playing for England?

Personally I think until recently our technique has let us down.  We now have Foden etc coming through who can play off either foot, work in crowded areas and retain the ball, etc.  For too long our players and their physical and industrial attributes have complimented the technical overseas players.  Ok, that’s a massive generalisation, but you see our failings when we come up a good technical opposition, whether they’re a Germany or lesser nation.  Sometimes we win through, but boy do we have what are perceived to be poor results / performances against these sides.  I’m not convinced that we are as good as we think we are, nor do we ever think we are underdogs either.

Completely agree with this and Gerrard was a prime example - his energy complimented people who could understand tactics (ok bit harsh). I’d also say Terry - spent years playing in a well organised team that disguised his lack of pace. But he got stuck in so he was a warrior. I actually feel we’re much nearer being a threat at tournaments now because of the technical players we have coming through (thanks to Wenger for starting this process).

I’d also say (speaking of tournaments) that Southgate has it spot on when he doesn’t base England on a gung ho strategy using our attacking ‘riches’. Even teams with good central defenders and covering midfielders don’t win tournaments this way. 

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1 minute ago, steveybadger said:

Completely agree with this and Gerrard was a prime example - his energy complimented people who could understand tactics (ok bit harsh). I’d also say Terry - spent years playing in a well organised team that disguised his lack of pace. But he got stuck in so he was a warrior. I actually feel we’re much nearer being a threat at tournaments now because of the technical players we have coming through (thanks to Wenger for starting this process).

I’d also say (speaking of tournaments) that Southgate has it spot on when he doesn’t base England on a gung ho strategy using our attacking ‘riches’. Even teams with good central defenders and covering midfielders don’t win tournaments this way. 

Terry - good shout.  How good was Carvalho alongside him?

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Yeah Gary Neville was a reliable right back. He missed the 2002 world cup, but he generally did well for England.

Yeah I remember Sinclair having a great game against Argentina. I don't think we had many options in that tournament to play there. Gerrard missed the tournament. Lampard was not yet that good. So at least that allowed Scholes to play centrally alongside Butt, not having to shift him out wide.

To be fair we didn't do too badly in that tournament. Struggled against Sweden but held on for a point, a bore 0-0 against Nigeria to ensure we made the knockouts. But a fantastic 1-0 win over Argentina, one of my all time favourite England wins. And a convincing 3-0 win against Denmark before Brazil game.

That Brazil side we lost to were sensational. But Ronaldinho did get sent off and we looked no better even against 10 men. Completely outclassed.

I think it was that tournament that Beckham stories all over the press every day leading up to it about his injury. He was so clearly unfit and played so poorly. It was a big problem with Erikssen, he just had to play those star names.

The team you say there. I can't remember how often Gerrard played wide right. But I do remember one home game at some premier League ground where Gerrard played wide right, Downing left and Defoe and crouch up top and we we thrashed someone, Poland maybe? But he seemed to move away from that idea for some reason. Gerrard was good on the right to be fair.

Good memories of England back then. Plenty of painful ones as well!

The best Gerrard played for Liverpool was when Benitez played him wide right. Ironically given that Beckham seemed undroppable because He was who he was, and there was the cult of Stevie G, I think England would’ve been better playing them in the other’s main position. But then we get into the obsession with midfielders bombing into the box and wide midfielders putting crosses in so it didn’t /wouldn’t ever have happened. But imagine Gerrard’s energy working flanks and Beckham’s Tinnion-esque (😄) passing ability in the middle. I still think it would’ve worked better....
 

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3 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

The best Gerrard played for Liverpool was when Benitez played him wide right. Ironically given that Beckham seemed undroppable because He was who he was, and there was the cult of Stevie G, I think England would’ve been better playing them in the other’s main position. But then we get into the obsession with midfielders bombing into the box and wide midfielders putting crosses in so it didn’t /wouldn’t ever have happened. But imagine Gerrard’s energy working flanks and Beckham’s Tinnion-esque (😄) passing ability in the middle. I still think it would’ve worked better....
 

Yeah good point. Gerrard was used right a fair bit under Benitez. But I always remembered Kuyt to be wide right a lot and Gerrard almost up top with Torres, obviously roaming deeper and wide with Torres being the proper number 9 looking to get in behind. Gerrard very good in either role. But not a deep midfielder. He was a runner, not a disciplined defensive midfielder. But England often used him in too displined a role.

Agree Gerrard wide right for England really could have worked. I'd even say a false 9 might have worked too! As an attacking player he was a right handful.

Beckham I agree with. I think it was at  AC Milan on loan that he played sort of right central of a 3 in midfield and it really suited him. He wasn't holding like at times he was at Real, that really didn't suit him. But he was able to still get balls into the box from an inside right position with a winger on the outside.

I actually think Beckham and Neville, however great it worked for United in the prem, did not work well at international level so much. Beckham would come too deep and we really lacked a direct threat down the right with no real pace in those 2.

I think there could have been a formula with the players we had in some tournaments to do get further than we did.

 

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22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Terry - good shout.  How good was Carvalho alongside him?

Carvalho up there with the very best centre backs the Prem has ever seen imo. Fantastic player. And Makelele in front of them too. What a player he was.

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16 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Terrific player and of course a certain Makelele in front of them in Mourinho’s first Chelsea title winning season. Not bad protection (or balance).

Ahh did not see you put this. Might as well have copied and pasted this comment in my last one haha

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State of the 21's under Boothroyd is embarrassing, I know other countries have good youth sides too but the quality of our 21's even if we're not winning games we should be massively competing, looks like all the players will be getting the summer off. 

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19 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

State of the 21's under Boothroyd is embarrassing, I know other countries have good youth sides too but the quality of our 21's even if we're not winning games we should be massively competing, looks like all the players will be getting the summer off. 

Why do England always select complete Dinosaurs as managers, Boothroyd, Southgate, Pearce, Big Sam, McClaren, Wilkinson etc 

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7 minutes ago, Galway Red said:

Why do England always select complete Dinosaurs as managers, Boothroyd, Southgate, Pearce, Big Sam, McClaren, Wilkinson etc 

Not sure you can describe Southgate as a dinosaur?

One thing is very clear, Boothroyd shouldn't be in charge of the U21's anymore.

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On 25/03/2021 at 13:05, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Even the most pessimistic England fan will find it difficult to argue that there are some absolute quality English players coming through. 

They really are doing their best to make this statement look optimistic aren't they. Another hopeless display do you still stand by your comment?

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7 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Not sure you can describe Southgate as a dinosaur?

One thing is very clear, Boothroyd shouldn't be in charge of the U21's anymore.

I can’t think of any other major football country that would put a League 1 standard manager in charge of their Under 21’s. In fact I’m not sure there would be a huge number of clubs at that level who would be in a mad rush to appoint Boothroyd.

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On 27/03/2021 at 21:39, JonDolman said:

Carvalho up there with the very best centre backs the Prem has ever seen imo. Fantastic player. And Makelele in front of them too. What a player he was.

Formidable player Makelele. 

So we have Makelele as the holding midfielder. Very few get passed him. 

A centre back pairing or Carvalho and Terry. Those that get by Makelele struggle to get through those two. 

Those lucky enough to get by Carvalho and Terry then had to score passed Cech in goal. Just brick wall after brick wall. 

It's no wonder they finished the league on 95 points and only conceded 15 league goals all season. 

Like the arsenal side a few years prior, they should have won a champions league. (eventually Chelsea did years later but this lot were something else) 

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10 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Not sure you can describe Southgate as a dinosaur?

One thing is very clear, Boothroyd shouldn't be in charge of the U21's anymore.

He started one game with Henderson, Dier and Rice in midfield while Grealish sat on the bench, typical English management decision, will be interesting to see what his midfield will be when everyone is available, Foden, Grealish, Mount, Maddison and Barnes are great players but I've got my doubts that we'll see any two of them in the same team when it comes to the big tournaments 

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