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22 hours ago, mozo said:

I told them the game would be better with a cricket style referral process, whereby the captain or gaffer of each team has 2 referrals and the referee will not use video assistance unless a referral is made.

Dammit I wish I could retake the survey, I totally agree and have had this exact thought before. It should work similar to the NFL, which from what I've seen works very well. Each coach has 3 so say 'Challenges' each half. They throw a red flag on the pitch, which indicates their desire that a decision is reviewed.

Except for goal line technology which should remain as it is, football should be allowed to flow uninterrupted. Perhaps they should experiment with the NFL model - let VAR be a silent witness, only called upon to 'review' a decision when challenged by a coach/manager. They are allowed three reviews per half.

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2 hours ago, OneCity said:

Dammit I wish I could retake the survey, I totally agree and have had this exact thought before. It should work similar to the NFL, which from what I've seen works very well. Each coach has 3 so say 'Challenges' each half. They throw a red flag on the pitch, which indicates their desire that a decision is reviewed.

Except for goal line technology which should remain as it is, football should be allowed to flow uninterrupted. Perhaps they should experiment with the NFL model - let VAR be a silent witness, only called upon to 'review' a decision when challenged by a coach/manager. They are allowed three reviews per half.

If it has to stay, I could get on board with manager/captain calls for a review.

But I'd limit it to one per half (which, of course, you keep if your appeal is upheld, but forfeit if the decision goes against you).

Chances to appeal should be in short supply, so the manager or captain only uses them when we really, really feel they have been cheated, i.e. when they think that an obvious error has been made.

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7 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

What exactly makes it enhance the experience for everyone?

For me it's not how it currently enhances the football experience, it is how it has the potential to improve the game.

Human error in can be seriously problematic, the difference between a team cheating and getting away with it or not. If we have the tech to safeguard on field decision making, we should do, especially when a single decision in a playoff final could cost a club millions.

Use it wisely, improve the game.

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8 minutes ago, mozo said:

For me it's not how it currently enhances the football experience, it is how it has the potential to improve the game.

Human error in can be seriously problematic, the difference between a team cheating and getting away with it or not. If we have the tech to safeguard on field decision making, we should do, especially when a single decision in a playoff final could cost a club millions.

Use it wisely, improve the game.

From what I've seen so far the potential for improving the game is very small - its not like cricket or tennis in this respect and nor should we try and make it like that.

I don't trust them to get it right either. I don't want to see last minute goals ruled out (after analysing for 3 minutes) for a toenail offside yet that is what we will always have with it unless they significantly change the format of it.

The only thing I think that may work is one referral per team per game. But whilst they work out a new format that can be trialled it should be scrapped.

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12 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

From what I've seen so far the potential for improving the game is very small - its not like cricket or tennis in this respect and nor should we try and make it like that.

I don't trust them to get it right either. I don't want to see last minute goals ruled out (after analysing for 3 minutes) for a toenail offside yet that is what we will always have with it unless they significantly change the format of it.

The only thing I think that may work is one referral per team per game. But whilst they work out a new format that can be trialled it should be scrapped.

I agree with your last sentence although I'd be fine with 2 referrals

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Just now, mozo said:

I agree with your last sentence although I'd be fine with 2 referrals

I wouldn't do 2 because that would mean 4 referrals per game as I expect teams would use both and we could be stopping for over 10 minutes. I think 1 is ideal as it would be precious for a team to make it count and hopefully also keep the time wasting down on checking.

I would also say it can only work for clear and obvious error (ie like cricket the 'on field' decision is key). I think main thing is stuff like the passion of scoring the winner isn't ripped away by a toenail etc. To be honest when it was first started they sold it on clear and obvious which sounded acceptable but it was never used that way. 

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Hate it with a passion, if City go up or it comes to the championship it will be non league for me. If City went up I probably would do a season of it before watching non league, also City getting hammered every game wouldn’t help 🤣

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My feelings are that VAR has ruined the game.

Let's look at this in simple terms:

We go to football matches for enjoyment (or in the hope of enjoyment being a City fan).

The main moment of enjoyment is when a goal is scored.

VAR takes away that moment, you cannot properly celebrate, it's always in the back of your mind whether it will go to VAR and then be disallowed.

Imagine Korey's goal vs Man U - many peoples favourite City moment - you would have half celebrated, but then it probably would have gone to VAR, minced around, goal given, but that initial moment of joy would have been lost.

Edited by bbew
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28 minutes ago, bbew said:

My feelings are that VAR has ruined the game.

Let's look at this in simple terms:

We go to football matches for enjoyment (or in the hope of enjoyment being a City fan).

The main moment of enjoyment is when a goal is scored.

VAR takes away that moment, you cannot properly celebrate, it's always in the back of your mind whether it will go to VAR and then be disallowed.

Imagine Korey's goal vs Man U - many peoples favourite City moment - you would have half celebrated, but then it probably would have gone to VAR, minced around, goal given, but that initial moment of joy would have been lost.

This! This is why VAR stinks!

Bin it!

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Football isn’t entertainment to the detriment of the correct decision entirely. The sheer number of decisions that VAR is getting right where linesman or referees have got it wrong proves it has a place, but as said before they tried applying VAR to the laws of the game when those laws were written with no technology possible at that time or even an idea. The laws of the game need a thorough rewriting to make them compatible with VAR, offside for example should go back to being any part of the body full stop IMO, much, much easier to measure when you’re only looking for the furthest forward body part rather than an armpit etc, offside should only occur when two thick lines don’t cross over and I’m talking half a foot at least, you could use Hawkeye like tech for cricket and if the ball is inline with the stumps which is quick. Line generated where they are atm but as said thicker, technology should be able to say quickly whether the two lines are touching. It’s similar to how its run now but has leniency to not totally penalise attackers. 
 

As said referrals will not work, 90th minute and you’re down by a goal and the opposition uses their remaining review because they can and play has to stop for a review of nothing essentially, you’re counter attack and chance to equalise is gone. You can’t play on to the next time the ball goes out of play, in theory what if it didn’t go out of play for 10 minutes? Are you going to say you have to play 10 more minutes to make up for it? If you say the next time the ball isn’t in an advantageous situation to a team then it becomes highly subjective, I’ve seen games stopped for a foul being given rather than advantage where it was 3v4 however the 3 were exceptionally talented and you’d back them even with the defenders having an extra player. 

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When VAR was proposed it was to correct "clear and obvious" errors, nothing wrong with that concept at all.

Trouble is that it has been used to try to be precise down to mm, like calling offside by the distance of somebody's big toe-nail.

Revert to only using it for "clear and obvious" errors and it would be fine.

 

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6 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Football isn’t entertainment to the detriment of the correct decision entirely. The sheer number of decisions that VAR is getting right where linesman or referees have got it wrong proves it has a place, but as said before they tried applying VAR to the laws of the game when those laws were written with no technology possible at that time or even an idea. The laws of the game need a thorough rewriting to make them compatible with VAR, offside for example should go back to being any part of the body full stop IMO, much, much easier to measure when you’re only looking for the furthest forward body part rather than an armpit etc, offside should only occur when two thick lines don’t cross over and I’m talking half a foot at least, you could use Hawkeye like tech for cricket and if the ball is inline with the stumps which is quick. Line generated where they are atm but as said thicker, technology should be able to say quickly whether the two lines are touching. It’s similar to how its run now but has leniency to not totally penalise attackers. 
 

As said referrals will not work, 90th minute and you’re down by a goal and the opposition uses their remaining review because they can and play has to stop for a review of nothing essentially, you’re counter attack and chance to equalise is gone. You can’t play on to the next time the ball goes out of play, in theory what if it didn’t go out of play for 10 minutes? Are you going to say you have to play 10 more minutes to make up for it? If you say the next time the ball isn’t in an advantageous situation to a team then it becomes highly subjective, I’ve seen games stopped for a foul being given rather than advantage where it was 3v4 however the 3 were exceptionally talented and you’d back them even with the defenders having an extra player. 

I'm against VAR and would celebrate it's removal as it simply isn't fit for purpose in football.

However the issues with referrals being used for time wasting can be countered with strict penalties.

If a player appeals a ban and their appeal is deemed "frivolous" actions has be taken, apply the same here.

If a team uses a VAR referral on something where there was nothing contentious, they get a fine, multiple offences build up the fine and serial offenders risk a points deduction. However this would require the FA to have some balls.

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14 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

However this would require the FA to have some balls.

And there’s your problem, no way a Chelsea or united gets a points deduction and a fine won’t be big enough vs picking up points. You then get into dangerous territory as well, all you need is to see a player on the floor and ask for a referral, what if the player only gets seen to by the physio for 30 seconds but is fine? If coaches then just say they didn’t see why their player was down and you can’t prove the player was faking 

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22 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

What exactly makes it enhance the experience for everyone?

If it was improved it could help to reduce instances of diving/cheating in the game. Personally I’d back anything that gets rid of diving as improving the experience. Nothing worse than opponents benefiting from cheating. 
 

 

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20 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

If it was improved it could help to reduce instances of diving/cheating in the game. Personally I’d back anything that gets rid of diving as improving the experience. Nothing worse than opponents benefiting from cheating. 
 

 

VAR isn't going to eradicate diving.

 

Strong retrospective action could, VAR won't.

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I hate the way VAR is being applied. I agree that it degrades the enjoyment of football. 
When it was first mooted I was in favour. I thought that it could be a useful tool for the referee to call upon if he needed reassurance. I thought it would HELP the officials rather than overrule them. 
It should be there for the referee to request. 
I also think that the team captains should be able to request it if they are disputing a ‘major’ decision such as a penalty or red card - but with an automatic yellow card for time wasting if the original decision is upheld. That would make them think very seriously about requesting it - they could only do it twice. 
it should be possible under those rules for most games never to even use VAR at all. 

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35 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I hate the way VAR is being applied. I agree that it degrades the enjoyment of football. 
When it was first mooted I was in favour. I thought that it could be a useful tool for the referee to call upon if he needed reassurance. I thought it would HELP the officials rather than overrule them. 
It should be there for the referee to request. 
I also think that the team captains should be able to request it if they are disputing a ‘major’ decision such as a penalty or red card - but with an automatic yellow card for time wasting if the original decision is upheld. That would make them think very seriously about requesting it - they could only do it twice. 
it should be possible under those rules for most games never to even use VAR at all. 

The problem with what you are suggesting is that very few, if any, would just ref the game naturally. Knowing they could check would linger in the minds and it would be used more and more.

As I’ve said, it gads nothing to the game and doesn’t increase its enjoyment.

I have no idea why it’s being used.

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I don't see the abuse of VAR referrals being a thing. Just watch how it works in the NFL, I don't think I've ever seen it exploited or used tactically like some are saying it might be in football. Maaaaybe it could happen? But to an NFL coach that red flag is very very precious, they know from experience that it must be used wisely and sparingly. That's why they employ analysts up in the stands, sitting behind a bank of screens, and it is they who make the call down to the sidelines as to whether a review is in order or not, based on a best guess percentage chance of a decision being overturned or upheld. And those decision come quickly, the window of opportunity is pretty small after all.

The equivalent in football might be only when a goal is at stake, like a penalty for or against, not some petty offside decision or a dodgy foul.

I think VAR challenges/referrals is the way forward, and the only way to improve this mess.

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On 31/03/2021 at 13:49, OneCity said:

I don't see the abuse of VAR referrals being a thing. Just watch how it works in the NFL, I don't think I've ever seen it exploited or used tactically like some are saying it might be in football. Maaaaybe it could happen? But to an NFL coach that red flag is very very precious, they know from experience that it must be used wisely and sparingly. That's why they employ analysts up in the stands, sitting behind a bank of screens, and it is they who make the call down to the sidelines as to whether a review is in order or not, based on a best guess percentage chance of a decision being overturned or upheld. And those decision come quickly, the window of opportunity is pretty small after all.

The equivalent in football might be only when a goal is at stake, like a penalty for or against, not some petty offside decision or a dodgy foul.

I think VAR challenges/referrals is the way forward, and the only way to improve this mess.

The NFL as a sport is completely incomparable to football.

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On 31/03/2021 at 13:49, OneCity said:

 

I don't see the abuse of VAR referrals being a thing. Just watch how it works in the NFL, I don't think I've ever seen it exploited or used tactically like some are saying it might be in football. Maaaaybe it could happen?

 

NFL plays take less than 30 seconds and are recorded in downs so each play can be broken down. Football as said the ball can stay live for 5 minutes so far more open to abuse tactically. 

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