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IGNORED

Holden vs Nigel vs ???


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When the Lansdowns want to build another physical asset, for even rebadge the club, they hire people who have a proven track record of doing what needs to be done. They take advice and act on it. It's been rare that they've followed that path when it comes to the playing side of the football club. Hiring Nigel Pearson doesn't guarantee success but at least he knows what it looks like and can point to occasions on which he's delivered it. Cotts and GJ could do the same.

By contrast Lee Johnson...Dean Holden...Mark Ashton? 

 

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59 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

It's all about opinions. I find it just as absurd that if a group of players ( largely the same basic group for the majority of this season) can win matches, sometimes convincingly and against some decent opponents then it is clear they are capable of winning more.

Nigel Pearson has come in with an impressive CV although maybe some questions about Watford.....or Derby.

If he is the right man then how is it the case that performances are seemingly getting worse not better and we can no longer win a game against anyone.

How is it possible that this is SOLELY down to everyone except highly experienced tactician and player motivator, Nigel Pearson?

Early days but I'm so underwhelmed at his progress so far. And if Simpson was a statement signing- he's made the wrong statement.

 

It basically boils down to whether fans are patient or not. We know fans can be very impatient - remember that 'Matt Smith is Awful' thread??!

I'm not concerned at all about performances or results. We aren't going to get relegated, and it's probably for the best (long term) if Pearson sees our squad at its worst.

I appreciate some fans might have expected a bit of a new manager bounce - but what if the truth is that our squad is legitimately really poor and we aren't capable of beating teams at this level on a consistent basis? I don't think we're quite that bad, but we are very imbalanced.

For the record, he did a good job at Watford really and the sacking was unfair. Derby weren't in the best shape at the time either. His success with Leicester is a result of patience and a longer term approach.

Simpson's barely played so I don't think he can be written off.

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I don't think I've known the fanbase so aligned tbh. You will always get some differing opinion but the vast majority are in sync over what action is required. Never known this level of agreement tbh!! However, it is one man's club and what he thinks is the only thing that will matter ultimately.

Very true NU and it’s interesting to speculate about what the atmosphere would be like if we were actually allowed into games at present.

After so many gutless performances including seven conscutive defeats at the Gate, I‘d speculate that these parasites would be left in no doubt about our feelings.

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Just now, BrizzleRed said:

Very true NU and it’s interesting to speculate about what the atmosphere would be like if we were actually allowed into games at present.

After so many gutless performances including seven conscutive defeats at the Gate, I‘d speculate that these parasites would be left in no doubt about our feelings.

I dont think we would have lost 7 on the bounce if us fans were allowed in the ground... Strange times were in im afraid

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10 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

There were people wanting rid of GJ then too. Indeed, there's a thread to that effect in the Classics section on here, started during that run by a former poster who is now active on Twitter, Radio Bristol and podcasts and very much likes to portray himself as the smartest man in the room. Needless to say, he wasn't amused at it being bumped when GJ got us to the Championship playoffs.

Haha, I'd forgotten about that. Will have to re-read.

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15 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

We had a similar situation when GJ took over, when he rattled a few cages and we had that run of nine defeats, while he was asserting some authority.

Nigel Pearson also has the added problem of a injury depleated squad and an unprecedented number of ooc players who are clearly demonstrating they couldn’t give a shit about which division this club is playing its football in next season.  How do you motivate players who really don’t care and seemingly have no professional pride??

Rather than questioning NP’s ability to manage, imho our current situation just brings into sharp focus how deep our problems run.  I think we’ve papered over the cracks for far too long and if SL doesn’t grasp the nettle and address it now, I fear we could see this club continue to go backwards at an increasingly alarming rate.

Agreed, I stated it yesterday. Can’t believe some of the posts on here.
In NPs Coventry post match presser (which was quite revealing), he precisely exposed some of the weaknesses at the club without naming names and methodically stated that things have to change. No bull shit and fairy tale stories like we have been used to in the past. That team for Coventry was not his team, had no NP identity at all. It was an Ashton 11 and nothing else.

FFS allow NP time to sort out this mess. Everyone knows the club is in a shambles on the field.
And it will take time to be sorted. Get rid of the lazy toe rags that just can’t be arsed, we all know who they are.
No overnight miracles next season IMO whoever is in charge.
I hope it is NP..

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Dont get the NP love in. 

He's done naff all 'with us' except make us worse not better. 

Sometimes managers and clubs dont work out, and at present this has the hallmarks of Pulis reign, inc signing unpopular players, crap football and a bunch of excuses. 

Really not impressed and relying on CVs based on what we've seen would have meant David James would have been one of our best players rather that absolute bobbins. 

 

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Just now, GasDestroyer said:

Agreed, I stated it yesterday. Can’t believe some of the posts on here.
In NPs Coventry post match presser (which was quite revealing), he precisely exposed some of the weaknesses at the club without naming names and methodically stated that things have to change. No bull shit and fairy tale stories like we have been used to in the past. That team for Coventry was not his team, had no NP identity at all. It was an Ashton 11 and nothing else.

FFS allow NP time to sort out this mess. Everyone knows the club is in a shambles on the field.
And it will take time to be sorted. Get rid of the lazy toe rags that just can’t be arsed, we all know who they are.
No overnight miracles next season IMO whoever is in charge.
I hope it is NP..

This is the point some of the supporters questioning NP are seemingly missing. It doesn't matter who we bring in, they have a huge rebuilding job on their hands. This current group of players cannot be moulded into a decent Championship side capable of winning games on a consistent basis at home by playing on the front foot. Once players let you down collectively there is literally only one solution to that...........

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3 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

I dont think we would have lost 7 on the bounce if us fans were allowed in the ground... Strange times were in im afraid

I’m not so sure about that.  
 

There’s a point when support ends and toxicity takes over and given the pathetic ‘efforts’ and lack of fight shown on the pitch, I can only see the poor little souls being even more pressurised on matchday and very much doubt we’d have seen a positive response from this shower

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The owner can look at the situation in many ways, but he must at least be pleased that HNM and Antoine figure well in NP plan's , and he has not been afraid to use our youth. These are huge positives for the owner, and I doubt there are many mangers big enough to go down that road. It has been said to death why the current team is not performing, it has been a long time coming, and was really evident after the pause last season when we cam back playing like a damp squid. It cost LJ his job, but that squad, is this squad, and has been assembled at huge cost in terms of transfer and wage bill. That the owner sanctioned a 5m 30 year old signing makes him also culpable for allowing such a return to old City practices. The club has not had a footballing identity or strategy for years. So what we have is a collection of players where no one kows what they were signed for because we have not had a clue how we were going to play in the first place. Add in many out of contract at the same time, others injured, others who don't want to be here, and a group of youngsters thrown into the fire . NP may or not be the right person, but he has clearly identified what many have been saying for a few years now. It is not a case of I told you so , more what on earth dd you expect. It has been so blatantly obvious it is only a shock people might be shocked. NP at least brings some experience, of both promotion and also the Prem league. No one else at the club has that. So if you are asking what is needed to get the Prem, there are few other people better suited. His task is the same as GJ and SC , we need to turn a sinking ship, and all of his comments could have been said in the past by both of those successful managers. We need a team, we need ability yes, but we need hunger and desire and above all a team. So rather than waste even more time, time that we do not have, why don't we set about confirming the manager, and get on with rebuilding the scouting, coaching and first team squad. Because time is of the essence. Waste more time, and anyone coming in will face exactly what NP has to face, the issues will not change. Yet they will even less time and even less opportunity to understand what is missing. No manager choice is perfect, but NP ticks more boxes than most and I am personally excited about him creating a solid squad and team, where our youth players can come in, be guided, supported and flourish alongside team mates who care. I would think the issue is rather turning, sign NP before he decides his own future is elsewhere. 

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In the late 1960s psychologists at Stanford university experimented on 4 year olds by offering them a choice: have one marshmallow right now, or wait ten minutes and have two. 

The men in white coats followed the 4 year olds as they grew up, and they reckoned that those that chose to wait and have two marshmallows instead of gobbling the one on offer immediately were far more successful in life as adults (higher IQ, earned more, addicted less, not in prison etc).

The ability to delay gratification turns out to be a useful life skill. Bristol City fans are well practiced in delaying gratification but we do wobble every now and then (fetch the men in white coats ....)

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4 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Dont get the NP love in. 

He's done naff all 'with us' except make us worse not better. 

Sometimes managers and clubs dont work out, and at present this has the hallmarks of Pulis reign, inc signing unpopular players, crap football and a bunch of excuses. 

Really not impressed and relying on CVs based on what we've seen would have meant David James would have been one of our best players rather that absolute bobbins. 

 

What excuses have been made? I think he's been very good in his interviews. He's honest, frank, tells the truth and doesn't use cliches really.

The Pulis comparison is also pretty extreme and he's only signed one player so far !

Also - David James was just a big name, was clearly on the decline when we signed him. 

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1 hour ago, dave36 said:

If backed means he was able to cherry pick the out of work, past their sell by football pensioners for free then I agree

Williams? Mawson? Sessegnon? Martin?

Admittedly the latter was 31 when he signed, but to me that hardly makes him a “pensioner”. Robert Lewandowski is the very same age, I wouldn’t be too disappointed to see him tip up in BS3 any time soon..

No one exactly forced Holden to sign Brunt, did they?

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1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

There’s more to life than CVs.  

True, but the best indication of what someone might do in the future is surely to look at what they have done/achieved in the past.

DH MAY have turned it around, NP may NOT, but the law of averages says he is a much better bet.  In the absence of a crystal ball, CVs (by which I mean track records) are all we have.

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What excuses have been made? I think he's been very good in his interviews. He's honest, frank, tells the truth and doesn't use cliches really.

The Pulis comparison is also pretty extreme and he's only signed one player so far !

Also - David James was just a big name, was clearly on the decline when we signed him. 

Blame everything and everyone, yet his responsibility to set up and motivate the team. 

We're worse now then when Holden left...

It's something like played 8, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 5 at the moment. 

Hardly screams 'success'  does it? 

 

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2 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Blame everything and everyone, yet his responsibility to set up and motivate the team. 

We're worse now then when Holden left...

It's something like played 8, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 5 at the moment. 

Hardly screams 'success'  does it? 

 

It's a tiny sample size and he's had no transfer window. In my opinion, he can't really be judged until he's had a window. 

I don't think he blamed 'everything and everyone' - he just said what most fans believe. He was frank and honest. 

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2 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Blame everything and everyone, yet his responsibility to set up and motivate the team. 

We're worse now then when Holden left...

It's something like played 8, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 5 at the moment. 

Hardly screams 'success'  does it? 

 

It's been disappointing, but in fairness to Pearson is there an obvious short term fix? The same issues of poor coaching and poor tactics have been present for the last two seasons, that's not something that can be changed overnight. The fact that we're terrible at home with and without fans suggests, to me, that the football coached by Johnson and Holden wasn't good enough. I expected Pearson to have more of an impact in terms of results, but I think performances are on the whole improving and the size of the job cant be underestimated. 

Whoever gets the job in the summer needs a transfer window before they're judged, that was the same platitude given to Holden despite clearly being out of his depth, the same needs to be given to be Pearson.

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24 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

The owner can look at the situation in many ways, but he must at least be pleased that HNM and Antoine figure well in NP plan's , and he has not been afraid to use our youth. These are huge positives for the owner, and I doubt there are many mangers big enough to go down that road. It has been said to death why the current team is not performing, it has been a long time coming, and was really evident after the pause last season when we cam back playing like a damp squid. It cost LJ his job, but that squad, is this squad, and has been assembled at huge cost in terms of transfer and wage bill. That the owner sanctioned a 5m 30 year old signing makes him also culpable for allowing such a return to old City practices. The club has not had a footballing identity or strategy for years. So what we have is a collection of players where no one kows what they were signed for because we have not had a clue how we were going to play in the first place. Add in many out of contract at the same time, others injured, others who don't want to be here, and a group of youngsters thrown into the fire . NP may or not be the right person, but he has clearly identified what many have been saying for a few years now. It is not a case of I told you so , more what on earth dd you expect. It has been so blatantly obvious it is only a shock people might be shocked. NP at least brings some experience, of both promotion and also the Prem league. No one else at the club has that. So if you are asking what is needed to get the Prem, there are few other people better suited. His task is the same as GJ and SC , we need to turn a sinking ship, and all of his comments could have been said in the past by both of those successful managers. We need a team, we need ability yes, but we need hunger and desire and above all a team. So rather than waste even more time, time that we do not have, why don't we set about confirming the manager, and get on with rebuilding the scouting, coaching and first team squad. Because time is of the essence. Waste more time, and anyone coming in will face exactly what NP has to face, the issues will not change. Yet they will even less time and even less opportunity to understand what is missing. No manager choice is perfect, but NP ticks more boxes than most and I am personally excited about him creating a solid squad and team, where our youth players can come in, be guided, supported and flourish alongside team mates who care. I would think the issue is rather turning, sign NP before he decides his own future is elsewhere. 

As well as rebuilding the coaching, scouting and first team structure, the medical staff need sorting too. The problem is that Mark Ashton built that team of humans and I can’t imagine him backing down on his decisions. So I don't see Nige staying unless Ashton goes.

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9 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Blame everything and everyone, yet his responsibility to set up and motivate the team. 

We're worse now then when Holden left...

It's something like played 8, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 5 at the moment. 

Hardly screams 'success'  does it? 

 

So who is your choice that you believe can come in and implement the major changes required? You don't believe we will be re-signing 17 out of contract players in a squad that has largely failed do you? Or do you think that watching us win when we've had 5 shots and the opposition 25 shots is the right type of football to be playing?

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17 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Blame everything and everyone, yet his responsibility to set up and motivate the team. 

We're worse now then when Holden left...

It's something like played 8, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 5 at the moment. 

Hardly screams 'success'  does it? 

 

We have actually won three matches (if you include Swansea), but I understand your point.

Edited by PHILINFRANCE
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1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Where does it say that?

Let's quote SL, the financals for this season when it comes to sign them off will be "horrific". 

 

Financial prudence will mean like any other seasons "trading" will take place with the sale of a number of players that have value. 

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9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

So who is your choice that you believe can come in and implement the major changes required? You don't believe we will be re-signing 17 out of contract players in a squad that has largely failed do you? Or do you think that watching us win when we've had 5 shots and the opposition 25 shots is the right type of football to be playing?

 

 

Answered choices here.  The rest of your post is full of some odd leading questions, that there's no point in answering as it will just lead to more infueuration that I'm clearly not on the page as your self. 

Hopefully that helps :)

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7 minutes ago, KegCity said:

It's been disappointing, but in fairness to Pearson is there an obvious short term fix? The same issues of poor coaching and poor tactics have been present for the last two seasons, that's not something that can be changed overnight. The fact that we're terrible at home with and without fans suggests, to me, that the football coached by Johnson and Holden wasn't good enough. I expected Pearson to have more of an impact in terms of results, but I think performances are on the whole improving and the size of the job cant be underestimated. 

Whoever gets the job in the summer needs a transfer window before they're judged, that was the same platitude given to Holden despite clearly being out of his depth, the same needs to be given to be Pearson.

Good post Keg.

However it’s been four seasons rather than two and after the lame display at Coventry it’s hard to see how performances have improved.

We’ve said before on here that Nige has inherited a poorly recruited squad and not even Pep would have turned things around in the short time NP has been here.

I think many of us would like Nige to be in charge next season. It’s refreshing to see candour in his interviews and saying what he’s seen. He points the finger at the entire team rather than throwing any of them under the bus.

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What has become ever more apparent in recent weeks is the complex mess we are in. 
 

The decline started under LJ (who overall I liked). Last summer, when a change of tack (i.e. a more experienced manager) was needed we ended up with Holden. Added to that a concerning amount of injuries, questionable recruitment, players devoid of confidence and/or not caring, and bad playing habits (like Rowe’s backpass, and I don’t like singling him out because he’s been ok for us). 
 

I must admit I thought NP would have a more positive effect short term (the signs weren’t there in the Swansea game), but the habits the team are in run deep. GJ faced a similar problem when he was appointed and we went in a long losing run. 
 

NP needs to be given a contract and allowed to build his own side. And by that I don’t mean splurging cash for a promotion push (that feels like a distant dream) - I mean a team next season who are hungry and well-drilled. Signings to fit the style of play NP decides on who give us value for money. The basis is there with the likes of HNM and Semenyo, two young players who have been giving their all despite the more experienced players around then looking like they’ve never been on a football pitch before. 
 

The main positive is that with so many OOC players we have a chance to clear the decks and re-build. 
 

Is anything guaranteed under NP? No. But he is surely very well placed to sort out the mess we are in, especially coming in with an experienced outsider’s perspective who will have the know-how to try to address the problems we face. 

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18 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Blame everything and everyone, yet his responsibility to set up and motivate the team. 

We're worse now then when Holden left...

It's something like played 8, won 2, drawn 1 and lost 5 at the moment. 

Hardly screams 'success'  does it? 

 

No, we are pretty much the same now as when Holden left with the difference being that we generally get beat at the moment not humiliated. You have a short memory I think and have obviously forgotten that we were averaging 1-2 shots PER GAME over a 4-5 game period I think it was but I might stand corrected when Holden left - not shots on target, shots in TOTAL. There were games where we didn't have a shot on target and didn't earn a corner - but you need to take off the rose tinted spectacles to spot them. We were getting comprehensively outplayed game after game. Watford was the single worst performance by any Bristol City team for years. Huddersfield at home where we actually WON 2-1 was one of the biggest examples of getting outplayed I have ever witnessed. Did you see that game?

No, Pearson hasn't been a success right now, in fact I can see why some people are underwhelmed a little, but whoever takes over the sorry mess we are in the end result from the fans perspective will be the same. Patience is required, patience that you perhaps don't have? I back Nigel Pearson over Dean Holden, Michael Appleton and any other realistic candidate out there to carry out a major rebuild job that is required. Then I would judge him and if he doesn't deliver then we know what happens in football management......

We live in a world where people expect instant gratification for everything.......want it all, want it now. Prepare to be disappointed.

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35 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

In the late 1960s psychologists at Stanford university experimented on 4 year olds by offering them a choice: have one marshmallow right now, or wait ten minutes and have two. 

The men in white coats followed the 4 year olds as they grew up, and they reckoned that those that chose to wait and have two marshmallows instead of gobbling the one on offer immediately were far more successful in life as adults (higher IQ, earned more, addicted less, not in prison etc).

The ability to delay gratification turns out to be a useful life skill. Bristol City fans are well practiced in delaying gratification but we do wobble every now and then (fetch the men in white coats ....)

Interesting.

Obviously you don’t want to make anything on here all about yourself, so if I had a “friend” who couldn’t stand marshmallows, what would that say about me, I mean “him”?

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24 minutes ago, Richard Head said:

As well as rebuilding the coaching, scouting and first team structure, the medical staff need sorting too. The problem is that Mark Ashton built that team of humans and I can’t imagine him backing down on his decisions. So I don't see Nige staying unless Ashton goes.

I rather think Ashton has his eyes on another prize, bringing in the investors who will one day buy out SL. So he maybe more flexible that previous. NP has said he has no issue working with a DOF, but it needs to be a real DOF not Ashton. He can still negotiate the deals, but not be involved in talent identification. 

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49 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Dont get the NP love in. 

He's done naff all 'with us' except make us worse not better. 

 

No further points looked likely this season under Holden and the 7 points NP gained from the Birmingham and Swansea wins, plus the Blackburn draw, should see us safe.

That numerous players may have now downed tools due to their reprehensible characters, will turn out to be another bonus of his arrival.

It has highlighted exactly which players must kicked out of the club asap.

We've got a good idea who they are, Pearson knows exactly who they are, and pretty soon he'll be giving those names to SL.

Edited by Nogbad the Bad
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7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Interesting.

Obviously you don’t want to make anything on here all about yourself, so if I had a “friend” who couldn’t stand marshmallows, what would that say about me, I mean “him”?

The literature is clear. Such a person's opinion on Dariusz "Jacki" Dziekanowski is not to be trusted.

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1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

But that's just football right - as you mentioned Watford how were they first team to beat Liverpool last year (and 3 - 0 after 18 consecutive wins or something ridiculous), but then ended up getting relegated in 19th? Surely those players were capable of beating Liverpool?

For me it's about regression to the mean as a team. You have highs and lows but over a season usually you'll end up somewhere in the middle. I saw a few highs (comparatively) from our players early in the season, some lows in the middle, and now we're poor and bumbling along lower mid table which is probably about where we are as a squad in my opinion. I think my prediction in the thread at the start of the year was 17th.

I think Pearson is slightly stuck in the middle of wanting to make changes to how we play, but also can't rip up the coaching the players have had over this last year on day one as that risks even more chaos...  as well as probably not having the personnel who can implement how he wants to play anyway.

On Simpson, I think they worked together in the past. For me it's an "I need some eyes I trust in that dressing room as something is seriously wrong" as much as a signing for the pitch.

 

Yep, I think this is exactly it.  He needs someone from the outside to get an inside view when his back is turned.

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

..............and what you correctly state is what could kill the whole thing. The issue many people have if we get the likes of Appleton in instead, is not that he won't realise that the squad is sub-standard and needs a major overhaul, you would require BCFC Owner/Board Member levels of "football blindness" to think that it doesn't, but what players will the likes of Appleton attract that will make things significantly better in the medium to longer term?

We might find out this summer 😳😳😳

Serioudly though, the guy has done ok since Ashton left him in 2015.  He’s stood on his own two feet and recruited pretty well.  I hope he’s learned there’s a better way of recruitment.

41 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Dont get the NP love in. 

He's done naff all 'with us' except make us worse not better. 

Sometimes managers and clubs dont work out, and at present this has the hallmarks of Pulis reign, inc signing unpopular players, crap football and a bunch of excuses. 

Really not impressed and relying on CVs based on what we've seen would have meant David James would have been one of our best players rather that absolute bobbins. 

 

you don’t get it (the love-in) because....

....you are purely looking at it from what happens on the pitch.  That’s important, but when there’s a festering mess beneath the surface, you’re focusing on the wrong thing.

Listen to the interviews.  Some of the players have downed tools.  He doesn’t want to throw the youngsters in because they might become damaged.  So some of those wasters are being picked.  He’s trying to be responsible, he’s taking ownership.  Running those youngsters now by throwing in 6 or 7 of them (he considers HNM and Semenyo as 2 youngsters) might destroy them.

I don’t think it’s a love-in either, it’s just a recognition by fans that we are in a mess and we have someone prepared to call it out.  Wake up to the mess at least.

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