Derby takeover ....

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 24/04/2021 at 13:50, Hxj said:

This is just sloppy writing.  The common approach on sacking managers now is that you keep them on the payroll as it usually cheaper.  If was paid off it is unlikely that was agreed before the end of January, and whilst the liability remains with the company that employed him, clearly the new owners will need to fund the cost.

 

If MM signs off the accounts confirming that there is no going concern issue he is committing to fund the company in full for the next 12 months.  Not sure he can afford that.  If he signs off the accounts as not a going concern he automatically puts the club in breach of EFL regulations.  Plus all the assets will need to be valued on a disposal basis, including the player contracts, probably putting the club significantly in breach of the FFP regulations.

 My belief is that Alonso is waiting to ensure that Derby are not relegated before completing.

Thanks, and that makes sense- keep on payroll can seem more common place now- if it's just pay for the duration of his contract as falls due until he finds another job, that liability would stay with the club, the new owners- Keogh true?

Like a Bury type situation? Hadn't even thought of that- so it could be a Bury Going Concern and a significant breach of FFP/P&S if on a disposal basis- double bubble!

Quite possibly, though I wonder if the EFL are minded to wave this one through...given some of the queries about the money, his bold statements "Spend £20m on an individual player" etc which would bring them right into conflict with FFP...though their FFP position is impossible to definitively judge given nothing for 2 years- the Going Concern thing, that makes sense.

What about "Material Uncertainty Going Concern", not the exact wording but in the past have seen a few clubs with that in their Accounts without punishment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Test- still playing around with formats.

Here we go- this is the Leasehold stuff for Pride Park...

Important bit on Part C appears to be 7-9. Registered Owner bit means the Owner of the Leasehold, not the Freehold- that would be Derby.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Now for the Freehold bit...

Point 6 seems most pertinent for this bit? Although Mel Morris and Points 4 and 5, the Localism Act? **** it, I assume it was all compliant with that though how can we know for certain.

Seems to suggest though, for the MSD charge/security something about no disposition without permission in writing?

Feels like Points 7-9 again. Seem to cover both Leasehold and Freehold.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Potentially linked to the Training Ground or Land nearby?

Actually quite unsure what this one is about, it seems to be in the area of Moor Farm but...is it a Leasehold or a Freehold?

 

Point 4 the MSD stuff. 

 

Points 4-6?

[Mr Popodopolous]

This seems to tie in, the Other Title Number listed for CH Charges from October 2020.

Do they actually own this then? Looks quite unclear...Title Absolute suggests YES but Point 2 in the Property Register suggests otherwise.  How would it affect a hypothetical dodge to sell and leaseback for P&S?

Seems they can't dispose of it currently anyway, based on the Restriction- not without Written Consent of MSD anyway. Read something about Locko as well.

Appears to tie in somewhat?

[Hxj]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What about "Material Uncertainty Going Concern", not the exact wording but in the past have seen a few clubs with that in their Accounts without punishment.

The phrasing is fine.  In short such issues are fine provided that they are explained as are the solutions.

If you look at the Bristol City Football Club Limited accounts for 2020 you will see numerous references to going concern, the material issues the company has and the disclosures in relation to how those are mitigated, in short SL will fund.  The second paragraph on page 13 is the most relevant to this issue.

In Derby's case if MM does not agree to fund it is difficult to see how the directors could submit accounts on the going concern basis as the same uncertainties exist.

If the Derby takeover took place next week and the new owners provided similar guarantees to Pula/SL then with appropriate evidence the accounts could be signed off.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Few interesting snippets online that I saw on my Timeline (of course being Twitter could be mischief-making/2 + 2=5 or other rubbish).

 

Looks to me as if MSD borrow the money to then lend on maybe? The 2nd loan was 8th October- dates check out...

Hard to tell if it's some attention seeker, or such but 9% interest on a £52m loan is a LOT of money to be found! 7.75% on £15m isn't that big but outside the PL is a decent amount of interest.

Think what the poster is suggesting is that Derby have taken two loans from MSD- £15m due by 2030, 7.75% interest and £52m at 9% interest, also due by 2030. Repayable in quarterly instalments- seems a decent amount to find for a non PL side! Also suggests that cash from Dell runs out after May in some subsequent Tweets.

Could of course be e.g. loans from the same company, same date but unrelated to Derby.

Loan 2- Most recent- was reportedly at CH on 8th October 2020.

Loan 1- The first- was widely reported as £15m- some dots to join but it could be.

[Mr Popodopolous]

A quick question, evening @Hxj apologies if you've already covered it in the past.

If Derby go into administration, can the floating charge crystalise? Still Derby fans on their forum seem not to make much reference to either the MSD loans or whether this can happen- main debt to Morris apparently.

[havanatopia]

Blimey Pops. I am rather blown away by your painstaking penchant for hugely time consuming detail. I assume you are not a full time worker. If you are you must have those little night time workers furrowing away heads deep in books. Bravo fella.

[Hxj]

15 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Few interesting snippets online that I saw on my Timeline (of course being Twitter could be mischief-making/2 + 2=5 or other rubbish).

 

Looks to me as if MSD borrow the money to then lend on maybe?

MSD have over £150 million in Loan Notes listed on the International Stock Exchange.  The money will have been borrowed from a related MSD company offshore.  The listing is tax planning - oops sorry prudent fiscal arrangement.

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

A quick question, evening @Hxj apologies if you've already covered it in the past.

If Derby go into administration, can the floating charge crystalise? Still Derby fans on their forum seem not to make much reference to either the MSD loans or whether this can happen- main debt to Morris apparently.

Usually yes.  The 'Events of Default' are unfortunately listed in the Loan Agreement not the Charge.

The issue for DCFC is the Fixed Charge over all the property.  That will bite the hardest and the fastest.

I doubt that the actual loans are to MM as that wouldn't make much sense commercially for him.  He might have signed a guarantee.

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Blimey Pops. I am rather blown away by your painstaking penchant for hugely time consuming detail. I assume you are not a full time worker. If you are you must have those little night time workers furrowing away heads deep in books. Bravo fella.

Tbh Hav, Covid brought about a few lifestyle changes for me- was burning candle at both ends work and leisure, somewhat- obviously any Travel Plans kiboshed since March 2020- indeed not actually been out of Bristol since 2nd week of Feb...2020!? Used to go out of Bristol several times a year to see mates elsewhere. Different types of work and less pubbing it- again been shut most of the last year this Pandemic, certainly not pub with mates or colleagues, Friday work finish until closing time ie midnight or such!  Pre Covid was weekly for me, probably not so good for me fun though it was!

Given me more time to delve into football finance etc, always something I was interested in.

Candle at both ends fizzling rather than burning, savings, was pushing burnout- bit of a different form of work for a while.

[Hxj]

Oh dear - all over the press that Alonso won't be buying Derby County ....

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 05/05/2021 at 13:39, Hxj said:

MSD have over £150 million in Loan Notes listed on the International Stock Exchange.  The money will have been borrowed from a related MSD company offshore.  The listing is tax planning - oops sorry prudent fiscal arrangement.

Usually yes.  The 'Events of Default' are unfortunately listed in the Loan Agreement not the Charge.

The issue for DCFC is the Fixed Charge over all the property.  That will bite the hardest and the fastest.

I doubt that the actual loans are to MM as that wouldn't make much sense commercially for him.  He might have signed a guarantee.

Thanks yet again for excellent insight- Fixed Charge over the Property- that sounds like it could get messy quickly if they default..

On 06/05/2021 at 08:57, Hxj said:

Oh dear - all over the press that Alonso won't be buying Derby County ....

Read snippets of Alonso's words- they seem to make little sense albeit I've not looked or heard in full. Something about taking on the debt to spend more on players- has he heard of FFP, that doesn't just go away for a start- Daily Mail suggested he wanted to use Derby to showcase (client?) players- amusingly though 5 of 6 would be ineligible due to Brexit.

On a sidenote, seems mad that we have more informed discussion on here about their financial situation than they do on DCFCFans. Very little mention of MSD Fixed Charges etc. Is it Pravda over there?

Here's one poster- had to laugh "tried to adhere to FFP".

Another one...

"I'm not one for conspiracy theories or anything" before going on to spout, er- why a conspiracy theory would you believe!

What's grossly unfair is trying to cheat FFP and by extension the system/compliant majority with the Stadium 'sale', and in some ways with the Amortisation going above and beyond- appealing the Keogh £2m also, Sam Rush was possibly a case they lost as well.

Some of them seem to have a school of thought that they can get the Stadium back by the Debtor due being wiped, ie Pride Park- yet that appeared as £81.1m in Cash Flow in 2017/18, both the club and the consolidated.

A few are advocating admin but debts secured against Pride Park and Training Ground (and everything else tbh)...

Saw a suggestion on my Twitter Timeline that if they defaulted, the lender could force them to sell players. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ah excellent, been quoted on DCFCfans or cited anyway. I occasionally cut through to an audience. 

2 point deduction would be splendid if the Appeal comes through for this season. 

Mel Morris and Rooney in League One would be a great thing. It would be very funny.

Odd thing is, Tamworth Ram and G Star Ram appear to be sensible posters yet spouted some shite on this subject. No idea about Curtains.

Is Dopey David still running that place.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ah well if you can't beat them, join them. 

Not been to Pride Park before as an away fan...Covid permitting there's always next season eh. Wonder if they'll quote this.

[Betty Swallocks]

Alonso has this morning posted pictures on his Twitter of ‘his’ house in Marbella in an attempt to give the impression that he has some wealth.

Only issue is, the picture is a screen-grab of an apartment in America which was originally used in a TikTok video. 
 

I hope he passes the owners test, will be great fun for everyone else. 

[phantom]

On 08/05/2021 at 21:49, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ah excellent, been quoted on DCFCfans or cited anyway. I occasionally cut through to an audience. 

2 point deduction would be splendid if the Appeal comes through for this season. 

Mel Morris and Rooney in League One would be a great thing. It would be very funny.

Odd thing is, Tamworth Ram and G Star Ram appear to be sensible posters yet spouted some shite on this subject. No idea about Curtains.

Is Dopey David still running that place.

EFL confirmed they have been found guilty of an offence from over two years ago

No announcement today but EFL looking to impose ASAP, could be fine OR points deduction

[Sweeneys Penalties]

and Richard Keogh has just cost 'em £2.3 million

[daored]

Another Derby County takeover OFF as talks with prospective owner Erik Alonso cancelled

[Unan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57114346

Derby County's takeover by Spanish businessman Erik Alonso is off.

Alonso's No Limit Sports Limited company agreed a deal to buy the club on 7 April but has since been unable to complete the transaction.

It is the second failed takeover at Pride Park this year after Rams owner Mel Morris called off the sale of the club to Derventio Holdings in March.

Derby, managed by Wayne Rooney, avoided relegation from the Championship this season by a point.

However, on Tuesday the English Football League won part of an appeal against the club over some of its accounting policies, with a points penalty or fine possible.

Speaking after keeping the Rams up with a 3-3 final-day draw against relegation rivals Sheffield Wednesday, former Manchester United and England striker Rooney said the club needed clarity over the ownership.

Alonso previously had a short period working as an advisor at Wednesday and had said his eventual goal was to take Derby to the Champions League after agreeing to purchase the club.

Morris has been looking to sell Derby for a number of months having put in around £200m of his own money to try to help the team win promotion to the Premier League without success.

The Derby-born businessman took over the club in September 2015 and, although they reached the play-offs in three of his first four campaigns as owner, they were unable to reach the top flight.

A deal to sell the club to Derventio Holdings, who were effectively owned by Sheikh Khaled bin Saquer Zayed Al Nahyan, a cousin of Manchester City owner Sheikh Mansour, was agreed in November but, after a period of inactivity on the purchase, Morris pulled out of the sale.

'Alonso claims caused alarm bells' - Analysis

BBC Radio Derby commentator Ed Dawes

I think Rams fans could have a sense of relief about them over this decision.

Although this is the second collapsed takeover of Derby County this year, it is clear that if the club do not feel the deal is right for the future then they are happy to walk away from it.

Erik Alonso has been very upfront about his plans to buy Derby, refinancing Pride Park to push the sale through and investing that money in the team. But some of his other claims have caused alarm bells to ring among supporters.

Targeting the Premier League is a realistic ambition, getting them into the Champions League is not. His social media activity has also caused raised eyebrows.

What happens next is anyone's guess, but Derby are still a suitable target for anyone who has an interest in the business of football and it should be no surprise if chairman Mel Morris is already talking to other suitors.

[Guest]

[Hxj]

They won't even have me as a member on their forum!

I hadn't even posted anything!

[bcfc01]

22 minutes ago, Hxj said:

They won't even have me as a member on their forum!

I hadn't even posted anything!

Your reputation precedes you.

Sounds like the Pikeys forum 

[havanatopia]

On 05/05/2021 at 18:39, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh Hav, Covid brought about a few lifestyle changes for me- was burning candle at both ends work and leisure, somewhat- obviously any Travel Plans kiboshed since March 2020- indeed not actually been out of Bristol since 2nd week of Feb...2020!? Used to go out of Bristol several times a year to see mates elsewhere. Different types of work and less pubbing it- again been shut most of the last year this Pandemic, certainly not pub with mates or colleagues, Friday work finish until closing time ie midnight or such!  Pre Covid was weekly for me, probably not so good for me fun though it was!

Given me more time to delve into football finance etc, always something I was interested in.

Candle at both ends fizzling rather than burning, savings, was pushing burnout- bit of a different form of work for a while.

ditto much of the world Pop.

You have most certainly delved deep that is for sure.

What is the latest on the FL points deduction ?

On 06/05/2021 at 02:57, Hxj said:

Oh dear - all over the press that Alonso won't be buying Derby County ....

Because he can't ! . Bit like when I was a youngster and I quite fancied the Rover 800 2 Door Coupe Vitesse; a very handsome vehicle and I took a test drive and said to the salesman, "I'm having that beauty". I went home, spoke to the Accountant and he said bluntly, 'you are not buying it, you don't have enough income or cash' I was crying into my cuppa tea. But he was right. Alonso has 5 beans but needs about 20,000. He got his maths wrong too. I'd say he made a lucky escape though just like me.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Nice little article I saw on my Twitter feed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9580807/Potential-Derby-County-buyers-WALKING-AWAY-discovering-debts-60MILLION.html

I'll say firstly that the figure appears to be a worst case scenario- but even assuming the only debts are those listed...£20m HMRC + £8m Cocu and co + £17.5m MSD=£45.5m. Not excessive for a Championship perennial really.

Has the Keogh Employment case been added in, not read the article in full.

Debts that could total as much as £60m...oof! Inclusive of that £20m HMRC deferral and let's be fair plenty of- maybe all clubs in the Football League- have taken up the offer during Covid, nothing wrong with it- it's just a lot to find at this time!  No wonder that their stated wage bill was only £1.2m a month according to reports- it was before PAYE/HMRC, maybe as well inclusive of some flexi furlough for non footballing staff...£1.2m wage bill a month given that the Consolidated Wage bill in 2017/18 was £46m always seemed a bit of a drastic and unlikely drop? Even the Club Wage bill in 2017/18 once Wage, NI/HMRC and Pension all factored, came to around £40m IIRC.

I struggled to believe in other words, that Consolidated Wage Bill including all factors drops from £46m in 2017/18 to £1.2m per month now- if we include NI/HMRC, Pension, staff across the entirety of the Group etc.

I was under the impression that a 2nd loan existed too against Moor Farm, and the debt against Pride Park was merely the first- caveat here, it could be the case that the Moor Farm loan is lower by far and £15m + maybe £2.5m Moor Farm Loan=£17.5m? That bit is of course pure guesswork by me...

Alonso always seemed like a no-hoper irrespective IMO- his Twitter was entertaining, his alleged political views very much less so, but a Championship football Club owner?? That said, Derby reportedly used Transfermarkt as one part of the justification for Player Valuations as per the Written Reasons- so then again...

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Hxj said:

They won't even have me as a member on their forum!

I hadn't even posted anything!

Haha! I suspect I would if I attempted to join get much the same...

Add to that Kieran Maguire and Matt Hughes- they don't much care for those 2...

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nice little article I saw on my Twitter feed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9580807/Potential-Derby-County-buyers-WALKING-AWAY-discovering-debts-60MILLION.html

I'll say firstly that the figure appears to be a worst case scenario- but even assuming the only debts are those listed...£20m HMRC + £8m Cocu and co + £17.5m MSD=£45.5m. Not excessive for a Championship perennial really.

Has the Keogh Employment case been added in, not read the article in full.

Debts that could total as much as £60m...oof! Inclusive of that £20m HMRC deferral and let's be fair plenty of- maybe all clubs in the Football League- have taken up the offer during Covid, nothing wrong with it- it's just a lot to find at this time!  No wonder that their stated wage bill was only £1.2m a month according to reports- it was before PAYE/HMRC, maybe as well inclusive of some flexi furlough for non footballing staff...£1.2m wage bill a month given that the Consolidated Wage bill in 2017/18 was £46m always seemed a bit of a drastic and unlikely drop? Even the Club Wage bill in 2017/18 once Wage, NI/HMRC and Pension all factored, came to around £40m IIRC.

I struggled to believe in other words, that Consolidated Wage Bill including all factors drops from £46m in 2017/18 to £1.2m per month now- if we include NI/HMRC, Pension, staff across the entirety of the Group etc.

I was under the impression that a 2nd loan existed too against Moor Farm, and the debt against Pride Park was merely the first- caveat here, it could be the case that the Moor Farm loan is lower by far and £15m + maybe £2.5m Moor Farm Loan=£17.5m? That bit is of course pure guesswork by me...

Alonso always seemed like somewhat of a no-hoper irrespective IMO- his Twitter was entertaining, his alleged political views very much less so, but a Championship football Club owner?? That said, Derby reportedly used Transfermarkt as one part of the justification for Player Valuations as per the Written Reasons- so then again...

Computer was playing up and I ran out of Edit time so I would add, I certainly believe it's dropped in the last 3 years- just not by £30-35m!

Article had no reference to the Keogh Judgement Award, but that is a debt unless it's been paid up instantly- could be included in the rest- been reported as £2.3m.

[GreedyHarry]

19 hours ago, Banned User said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57114346

Derby County's takeover by Spanish businessman Erik Alonso is off.

Alonso's No Limit Sports Limited company agreed a deal to buy the club on 7 April but has since been unable to complete the transaction.

It is the second failed takeover at Pride Park this year after Rams owner Mel Morris called off the sale of the club to Derventio Holdings in March.

Derby, managed by Wayne Rooney, avoided relegation from the Championship this season by a point.

However, on Tuesday the English Football League won part of an appeal against the club over some of its accounting policies, with a points penalty or fine possible.

Speaking after keeping the Rams up with a 3-3 final-day draw against relegation rivals Sheffield Wednesday, former Manchester United and England striker Rooney said the club needed clarity over the ownership.

Alonso previously had a short period working as an advisor at Wednesday and had said his eventual goal was to take Derby to the Champions League after agreeing to purchase the club.

Morris has been looking to sell Derby for a number of months having put in around £200m of his own money to try to help the team win promotion to the Premier League without success.

The Derby-born businessman took over the club in September 2015 and, although they reached the play-offs in three of his first four campaigns as owner, they were unable to reach the top flight.

A deal to sell the club to Derventio Holdings, who were effectively owned by Sheikh Khaled bin Saquer Zayed Al Nahyan, a cousin of Manchester City owner Sheikh Mansour, was agreed in November but, after a period of inactivity on the purchase, Morris pulled out of the sale.

'Alonso claims caused alarm bells' - Analysis

BBC Radio Derby commentator Ed Dawes

I think Rams fans could have a sense of relief about them over this decision.

Although this is the second collapsed takeover of Derby County this year, it is clear that if the club do not feel the deal is right for the future then they are happy to walk away from it.

Erik Alonso has been very upfront about his plans to buy Derby, refinancing Pride Park to push the sale through and investing that money in the team. But some of his other claims have caused alarm bells to ring among supporters.

Targeting the Premier League is a realistic ambition, getting them into the Champions League is not. His social media activity has also caused raised eyebrows.

What happens next is anyone's guess, but Derby are still a suitable target for anyone who has an interest in the business of football and it should be no surprise if chairman Mel Morris is already talking to other suitors.

I’m not very clever at all this but in the analysis they say refinancing Pride Park would push the sale through. How would that help as I thought they don’t own their ground any more?

[downendcity]

6 minutes ago, GreedyHarry said:

I’m not very clever at all this but in the analysis they say refinancing Pride Park would push the sale through. How would that help as I thought they don’t own their ground any more?

Where there's a Mel there's a way! 

[Jerseybean]

Don’t think you could give DC away - as I understand it there is a £60m debt to be repaid within a year and a likely points deduction heading their way - basket case +++