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Our Fans are the problem, not Mark Ashton or Steve Lansdown


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51 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Really interesting post.  The question of why Bristol had underachieved at sport for over 100 years is fascinating, and I’m no nearer to knowing the answer.  They used to say that more people played sport in Bristol, hence fewer supporters putting money into the club; or that it is a commercial city with no substantial grassroots for sport.  I think geography might come into it.  Bristol is slightly isolated and maybe we’ve been seen as an outlier for decades, whereas the likes of Leicester are part of a hub of football clubs.  But the fact is that we were the second southern club to join the Football League (after Arsenal) and almost all our success can in our first decade, which is embarrassing.  The whole thing is perplexing - given our demographic, Bristol is arguably the most underachieving city for competitive sport in Western Europe.

I've never understood why folks incorrectly conflate the population of a catchment area to assumed levels of sporting prowess? The more significant measure is the degree of engagement of the catchment community with local clubs (and that's pretty much applicable across sports.)

In City's case the population of Greater Bristol is now estimated to have hit the million mark, hence 98% of those folks never attend a City fixture. We may be the 'One Team In Bristol' but that's of interest to around 2% of the local population. T'was ever thus. Of the 7 STs I purchase not one holder has lived within 100 miles of Bristol for the past 40 years. In that time Bristol has seen one of the largest population migrations in the UK hence Sociologists and Political Scientists love to dissect the obvious difference in 'place' and 'belonging' elections have demonstrated. Incomers may like living in Bristol but have little or no affinity toward it, care not for its long-term planning or whether they'll tarry there long? I've lived in London for 40 years but am not a Londoner nor would choose to support anything other than my childhood club.

Contrast those clubs with high levels of local engagement and affinity (and static populations) - Burnley, Lens, Forest Green et al. Hugely punch about their weight and have done so for decades.

City / Bristol are massive underachievers but we're not even good enough to touch the bottom of the pile. Plymouth is often cited as a comparator but they, too, are trumped by the likes of the City of Wakefield. Who, you might ask? Well there's around 350k folks there supporting 3 or 4 rugby clubs whose names you won't have heard since Eddie Waring turned up his toes and whose highest figuring football team has been Frickley Athletic.

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1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

The largest stand-alone city in the UK without a league club is Chelmsford. 160,000 in the conurbation. Never been higher than Conference South. They have a crap rugby club as well.

That's because Chelmsford's too boring to have a football team :D

 

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2 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I thought I'd replied last night but obviously it didn't post. 

 

I'm not insinuating anything. 

Your post  directly accuses the OP of being a dupe poster as a way of shutting down discussions through trying to discredit. 

The hate aspect is that youve gone on record that you dislike MA having either met or worked or both with him, tempering your posts narrative. 

Because of your position as in stats here, long and numerous posts, Bristol post stuff, podcasts and everything else, your posts hold weight and thus if they say that you dislike someone, others will use that to draw on their decisions too, hence the toxic atmosphere shown on here, by many towards MA. Atracks have been repeated and over pretty much every aspect of him as a person, in business and then his position at the club. It's also driven further attacks towards other people at the club from SL JL and pretty much all and sundry including players who your posts dont think are performing. 

That influence is powerful and as a result when things challenge that your posts tend to get uppity or play dirty as demonstrated at the start of this one, or by trying to tell others how they should think, which is a  pretty poor show. 

The last time I saw a situation similar to this was in the field of retrogaming and someone who was a self professed Atari expert. It did not end well as things rapidly fell apart once people started to pick at things they'd said or done that under scrutiny fell apart and meant much of their influence, to the point of changing some of retrogaming history though misinformation and undue influence. 

I'm not doing here then anything aside from pointing out that, your posts have power and as such with everything else create a fiefdom which needs to be checked and nutured, less it whips up a cauldron of hate towards others. which is what your posts on 'everything that is wrong at Bristol City' tend to do and to be mindful of that. 

 

 

Still wow!

I don’t shut anyone down...I was all for understanding the other person’s view.  If anyone shut the debate down it was the OP.  The OP basically said “us fans” were the problem.  Pretty accusational standpoint.

Perhaps I influence because I take the time to explain my thoughts?  Perhaps many OTIBers appreciate my posts because of that.  Do you think they hold weight because they’re long and numerous? I post because I love talking about football and Bristol City in particular.  Can’t please everyone though, fine if you think I play dirty, etc. You couldn’t be further away from the truth though.

Re MA - I’ve met the bloke twice, very brief chats.  As I explained in previous posts, on those occasions he was not in his natural environment and they were uncomfortable conversations for him.  I have no reason to dislike him as a person.  Happy for you to point out where I’ve said that...and the context if I did.  I’ve always countered the posters who moan about his corporate speak....in fact my reply to the OP started with exactly that.

I’m pretty consistent in my “dislike” of his performance on the Recruitment side, both in his time as consultant here and permanently since end of 2015.  And if you follow this thread and many others, you’ll read why.  You don’t have to agree, many don’t.  You’ll also see I credit him for other things though.  It ain’t black and white....and it’s opinion, opinion based on insight in some cases.

Some posters on here pick at my stuff all the time.  I learn from others, I use that learning to improve my understanding.

Thanks for giving me the insight into my divisive ways on OTIB.

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23 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

That's because Chelmsford's too boring to have a football team :D

 

 

Used to have one good pub, the Prince of Orange.  But that was obviously too exciting, so the council took its licence away and it was redeveloped as flats. :badmood:

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2 hours ago, Fiale said:

Also, why exactly do we need a voice at the EFL ? What exactly is it we are saying / getting that other clubs don't ?

As a club we strongly support FFP.

Could be that MA is partly responsible for the beefed up powers.

Rule changes or new Rules in the Championship required a minimum threshold of 18/24 clubs to agree- perhaps his lobbying has brought innovations into play e.g. Soft Embargoes, Past, Present, Future Monitoring and of course a tariff which can go as high as 21 points.

Perhaps in an EFL context, he was a key man in this respect. Suspect he's pushing hard, Derby vs EFL Appeal still ongoing.

Be assured, there are clubs who want FFP abolished or significantly changed.

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In terms of OP and League 1 and 2, potentially they were getting mixed up. 20 years ago the Leagues were of course Division One and Two, in reality the 2nd and 3rd level. We did yoyo a bit.

20 years of SL in charge has seen us in the 2nd tier more often than the 2 decades before. That's an improvement to a point.

Off the pitch? Stadium (Complete with revenue facilities), Training Ground. Improvement in terms of Infrastructure.

Always counterfactuals. Brentford have overtaken us though their spending has stepped up, Barnsley are in the playoffs atm which is brilliant work. Lot less revenue.

Otoh, Birmingham £37m wage bill in 2017/18. Almost relegated. Reading bottom third 2018/19, maybe 14th but relegation scrap for some time. £42m wage bill.

Attendances at AG highest since 1970s over a sustained period pre Covid. Interesting to see how it looks in 2021/22.

Our wages and expenditure. They maybe record breaking by our standards. Yet midtableish at this level.

Which is where we are at this season. Midtableish, and a fairly injury hit squad- lot of room for improvement however.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In terms of OP and League 1 and 2, potentially they were getting mixed up. 20 years ago the Leagues weee of course Division One and Two, in reality the 2nd and 3rd level. We did yoyo a bit.

20 years of SL in charge has seen us in the 2nd tier more often than the 2 decades before. That's an improvement to a point.

Off the pitch? Stadium (Complete with revenue facilities), Training Ground. Improvement in terms of Infrastructure.

Always counterfactuals. Brentford have overtaken us though their spending has stepped up, Barnsley are in the playoffs atm which is brilliant work. Lot less revenue.

Otoh, Birmingham £37m wage bill in 2017/18. Almost relegated. Reading bottom third 2018/19, maybe 14th but relegation scrap for some time. £42m wage bill.

Attendances at AG highest since 1970s over a sustained period pre Covid. Interesting to see how it looks in 2021/22.

Our wages and expenditure. They maybe record breaking by our standards. Yet midtableish at this level.

Which is where we are at this season. Midtableish, and a fairly injury hit squad- lot of room for improvement however.

 

 

The question I would ask, no blame apportioned, is would Steve Lansdown himself after all the effort and investment made in 20 odd years be happy with where the club currently stands? Is £200m or whatever it is that has come out of his own pocket a fair level of investment to turn a club that was knocking around in between 2nd and 3rd tiers into one that is fairly solid 2nd tier but nothing better (barring a disaster and freak set of results over the next month)? I suspect he would have expected more on the football side by now.

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2 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

I thought I'd replied last night but obviously it didn't post. 

 

I'm not insinuating anything. 

Your post  directly accuses the OP of being a dupe poster as a way of shutting down discussions through trying to discredit. 

The hate aspect is that youve gone on record that you dislike MA having either met or worked or both with him, tempering your posts narrative. 

Because of your position as in stats here, long and numerous posts, Bristol post stuff, podcasts and everything else, your posts hold weight and thus if they say that you dislike someone, others will use that to draw on their decisions too, hence the toxic atmosphere shown on here, by many towards MA. Atracks have been repeated and over pretty much every aspect of him as a person, in business and then his position at the club. It's also driven further attacks towards other people at the club from SL JL and pretty much all and sundry including players who your posts dont think are performing. 

That influence is powerful and as a result when things challenge that your posts tend to get uppity or play dirty as demonstrated at the start of this one, or by trying to tell others how they should think, which is a  pretty poor show. 

The last time I saw a situation similar to this was in the field of retrogaming and someone who was a self professed Atari expert. It did not end well as things rapidly fell apart once people started to pick at things they'd said or done that under scrutiny fell apart and meant much of their influence, to the point of changing some of retrogaming history though misinformation and undue influence. 

I'm not doing here then anything aside from pointing out that, your posts have power and as such with everything else create a fiefdom which needs to be checked and nutured, less it whips up a cauldron of hate towards others. which is what your posts on 'everything that is wrong at Bristol City' tend to do and to be mindful of that. 

 

 

There's plenty of other posters who are far more virulent in their attacks on other posters/posts than @Davefevs! I would imagine most people on this forum are capable of forming their own opinion of MA and what is wrong with the club without Dave's input, I think you are overstating his influence on other members. 

I actually enjoy reading his posts and find them very insightful.

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2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

There's plenty of other posters who are far more virulent in their attacks on other posters/posts than @Davefevs! I would imagine most people on this forum are capable of forming their own opinion of MA and what is wrong with the club without Dave's input, I think you are overstating his influence on other members. 

I actually enjoy reading his posts and find them very insightful.

Welcome to my cult

Dance Flowers GIF by A24

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21 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

Do we get a membership pack? I demand at least a membership card, car sticker and a quarterly magazine or I'm not staying.

Yes, don’t be fooled by the National Trust branding, turn the free binoculars round the other way.

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Not watching Somerset bat, I hope?

Nope, been out for the day.

Still confident a side that produces more first class cricketers than any is on the right lines.

Some real talent through all the age groups.

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Having supported our club since the age of eleven and lived in Bristol, all my life (66years) and taken a very keen interest in the make up of our city and its surroundings, as well as the why's and where how of the club, I can say that, the reasons for our lack off success are mirrored throughout Bristol and the regions history.

We are a divided city politically, with numerous changes over my lifetime, from left wing to right wing to stuck in the middle. This leads to administrations being constantly changed and projects not finished or never started, due to not enough power allotted to the leaders of the city. Each administration needing the assistance of a smaller group to pass policies.

We are a divided city in terms of wealth, with a lesser proportion of working class people than other cities, those traditionally thought of as footballing cities. Meaning there are less people focused on supporting/following football per head of population. A few things happen because of this. 1, less revenue is provided for the club. 2, less people play football, so a smaller choice of better quality players come through the ranks, 3, there's less support within the corridors of power to support the club. I was thinking that in more modern times, this might alter, as there is now a larger emphasis to athleticism, as opposed to true grit, skill and determination, provided traditionally by the teams the further North you go, London has it's own toughness.

Being a divided city with less traditional support for football, having two teams also hinders the chances of success. WD&HO WILLs refused to sponsor City as it would have been unfair on the other lot. So they sponsored the power boat racing and the tennis. Later John Wills sponsored Swindon Town and left the legacy of South Bristol with the highest rates of lung cancer in the country. Other money traditionally leaves Bristol and goes to the rugby in Bath, Bristol is now competing because of SL.

I think it mostly boils down to us not being as demanding and downright boisterous as other areas (both physically and vocally) with successful clubs. We're too soft, too apathetic, too accepting of mediocrity. As a fan base, I've always thought of us as reactive as opposed to proactive, basically we're typically Bristolian. Yet more demanding that that other bunch.

Strange that places like Ipswich, Norwich, Portsmouth, Southampton, Reading, even Swindon can reach the promised land, especially as they are all smaller with probably a similar percentage of possible football followers, as in Bristol. There's one thing missing from those places. And until we get rid of that lot, we'll truly struggle to have sustained success, unless we market ourselves as a regional club, encompassing towns like Taunton, Bridgwater, Gloucester and anywhere there's reasonable transport links and a decent untapped population interested in football.

We also rarely produce A list performers, bands or whatever on a regular basis, because there's no real drive and grit to achieve anything really and, nothing from the past to act as an inspiration. We currently are a very nice city bobbing along being mediocre and, until more people take an active role in our society, instead of leaving the roles of councilors and doers to people that have arrived here from other parts, that have no affiliation to our city, then it will most likely remain the same. It would be interesting to find out the number of people in power that are local to our area, in comparison to other cities.

Bloody hell, I'm depressed now. :)? 

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I have noticed today that SL has/is to step down from his position as chairman with Ravenscroft "to concentrate on his Sporting interests in Bristol" "while remaining the major share holder" seems new news, interesting or not? :dunno:

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On 08/04/2021 at 15:39, Davefevs said:

Ta.  Always happy to explain my view / rationale.

I do tend to get touchy when the response is “you’re wrong” because you don’t work in football.  Always happy to take alternate views on board too

The debating style of the OP has remarkable likeness to a poster who recently decided to stop following Bristol City, even using some very similar (same?) phrases as that poster.

Mmmm!

Interesting. I think your hunch might be correct. I've only read the OP's post after reading your post here.. and it's a bit tin foil of me.. but now you mention it it does read like dear @Prinny trying very hard not to write like @Prinny.

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7 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I lived in Leeds for a couple of years and when we get posts on here saying how mean our fans were for booing at a game and being entitled it always makes me laugh in comparison to the fans I knew up there. Our team get an incredibly easy ride in comparison.

I remember a few years ago us being 2-0 up at Elland road and Leeds being boo'd off at half time. Came back out and I'm pretty sure it finished 2-2.

Down here we'd have been quietly tutting to each other before shuffling off to queue for the bogs and squint at the half time results.

Looking at the state of affairs for the last few years I think we're perhaps just too nice... So maybe it is partly the fans "fault" but not for the reasons the OP has said!

I think Leeds fans (rightly so really) see themselves as a PL club. I think at the moment most fans accept we are at about the right sort of level. I reckon if we were L1 (which is probably the equivalent of the way Leeds fans see this league) our fans would give the team a tougher time when struggling. 

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While I understand the arguments surrounding the nature of Bristol as a location and city and what it has achieved collectively in the past, I can't help but think, the one single factor in our history that holds us back is that were not a very well run club.

Every time we seem to be on the cusp of success we always seem to do something to conspire to bollocks it all up.

I was only a baby in the 70's but we all well know the boardroom decisions that lead to the loss of our top-flight status and subsequently almost the loss of the whole club.

We claw our way back to the second tier thanks to the hard work and dedication of people like Terry Cooper and the chairmanship of Des Williams and then what? We bollocks it all up with the reform group and all the financial misconduct around the Atyeo stand while we fall apart on the pitch.

In comes Scott Davidson and off we go again, a well meaning bloke and a fan of the club. We do progress and return to tier 2 but hey ho, we fall apart again and after a succession of terrible managerial appointments (Bennie, The former chief scout and the Clueless), Davidson falls out with the rest of the board and round we go again.

Danny Wilson comes and goes leaving some great footballing memories on the pitch but a bunch drunken lunatics off it. 

That bloke from Brandon tool hire comes and goes, we break the spirit of one of the best footballing servants we've ever had, then we almost almost achieved the dream....

And....

We slowly destroy ourselves again, poor signings, poor managerial choices and the inevitable relegation.

So back. We build yet again...

More success, back in to tier two yet again. It goes pair shaped so in comes LJ.

We start moving in the right direction. We beat Man Utd. We give Man City a good game. We are in the top two. We desperately, desperately need to be bold in the Jan 18 transfer window but.... Nah, of course we don't do it and fall away again.

The latest high water mark before we gradually fall apart.

Don't get me wrong. I don't for one second believe Steve and the fam don't love this club and that they desperately want to see us in the top flight. The fact of the matter is, to be successful you need to hire the best people. We have shown now for over 40 years, we aren't great at doing that.

Until we get all of our ducks in a row both on and off the pitch we will always find a way to cock it all up.

It's not the fans, it's not the history of Bristol or the city of Bristol itself that is to blame for our lack of success.

It's purely down to the fact that we have never capitalised on the success we've had when we've had it by having the right people in the right place at the right time.

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19 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

While I understand the arguments surrounding the nature of Bristol as a location and city and what it has achieved collectively in the past, I can't help but think, the one single factor in our history that holds us back is that were not a very well run club.

Every time we seem to be on the cusp of success we always seem to do something to conspire to bollocks it all up.

I was only a baby in the 70's but we all well know the boardroom decisions that lead to the loss of our top-flight status and subsequently almost the loss of the whole club.

We claw our way back to the second tier thanks to the hard work and dedication of people like Terry Cooper and the chairmanship of Des Williams and then what? We bollocks it all up with the reform group and all the financial misconduct around the Atyeo stand while we fall apart on the pitch.

In comes Scott Davidson and off we go again, a well meaning bloke and a fan of the club. We do progress and return to tier 2 but hey ho, we fall apart again and after a succession of terrible managerial appointments (Bennie, The former chief scout and the Clueless), Davidson falls out with the rest of the board and round we go again.

Danny Wilson comes and goes leaving some great footballing memories on the pitch but a bunch drunken lunatics off it. 

That bloke from Brandon tool hire comes and goes, we break the spirit of one of the best footballing servants we've ever had, then we almost almost achieved the dream....

And....

We slowly destroy ourselves again, poor signings, poor managerial choices and the inevitable relegation.

So back. We build yet again...

More success, back in to tier two yet again. It goes pair shaped so in comes LJ.

We start moving in the right direction. We beat Man Utd. We give Man City a good game. We are in the top two. We desperately, desperately need to be bold in the Jan 18 transfer window but.... Nah, of course we don't do it and fall away again.

The latest high water mark before we gradually fall apart.

Don't get me wrong. I don't for one second believe Steve and the fam don't love this club and that they desperately want to see us in the top flight. The fact of the matter is, to be successful you need to hire the best people. We have shown now for over 40 years, we aren't great at doing that.

Until we get all of our ducks in a row both on and off the pitch we will always find a way to cock it all up.

It's not the fans, it's not the history of Bristol or the city of Bristol itself that is to blame for our lack of success.

It's purely down to the fact that we have never capitalised on the success we've had when we've had it by having the right people in the right place at the right time.

I agree, this is exactly what happens with our club, no denying it at all. Which is what I hanker to regarding Bristol and the region as a whole. The people that run the show are not as driven and knowledgeable as with other clubs, just like the other things within Bristol, so they get overturned by the next mediocre group/person that comes along thinking they can change it.

People go on about Lansdown being an astute businessman and, I can't really argue with that, as there are bound to be things in business that he's good at but in my opinion, Lansdown's role was more to do with keeping the business model nice and tidy and filing the forms at the right time and sorting the accounts, which is after all what he is, an accountant. While the hard nosed Hargreaves pushed the business to it's massive success and continued to do so when Lansdown left the business.

There's no denying that he's made a lot of mistakes in running BCFC which would prove your theory but, this time, there's been nobody to challenge him and change the course of the club, into another chapter of mediocrity, which is all he's achieved in his 20 odd years in charge.

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