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IGNORED

Our Fans are the problem, not Mark Ashton or Steve Lansdown


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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The HoR often is the Director of Football.  In Keith Burt’s case, he ran the playing budget, negotiated contracts, signed players etc.  He worked with the manager to identify the requirements of the players needed and directed the scouts and analysts (more about eyes than data though) to identify those players, including doing that himself.  All from Keith’s mouth.

Well, with that in mind, I would suggest that Mark has done a better job than Keith Burt when it comes to signings and outgoing transfer fees and was right to lose his job.

I still have no idea what MA pension has to do with anything even if it is a lot of money.  I couldn't care less about his pension. 

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Just now, AshtonYate said:

Well, with that in mind, I would suggest that Mark has done a better job than Keith Burt when it comes to signings and outgoing transfer fees and was right to lose his job.

I still have no idea what MA pension has to do with anything even if it is a lot of money.  I couldn't care less about his pension. 

How about his £527k p.a. Salary?

Who’s players did he sell?

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1 minute ago, AshtonYate said:

Well, with that in mind, I would suggest that Mark has done a better job than Keith Burt when it comes to signings and outgoing transfer fees and was right to lose his job.

I still have no idea what MA pension has to do with anything even if it is a lot of money.  I couldn't care less about his pension. 

About to have to duck out to do some work but my recollection of Keith Burt is shaking him by the hand and thanking him for the single best summer of transfers I can recall! What a side he and Cotts assembled.

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5 minutes ago, AshtonYate said:

Well, with that in mind, I would suggest that Mark has done a better job than Keith Burt when it comes to signings and outgoing transfer fees and was right to lose his job.

I still have no idea what MA pension has to do with anything even if it is a lot of money.  I couldn't care less about his pension. 

I think the issue is whether Mark Ashton is paid an average wage for his role or is his package significantly above average? In my opinion and from my knowledge of working with these types of people in companies similarly or larger sized than BCFC an average package for a CEO at Bristol City FC SHOULD be in the region of £350-£400K. With that in mind, would you describe the job he does as justifying his package? You might well think he does justify it but that is the perspective that many people are applying in order to make their own judgement.,

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7 minutes ago, AshtonYate said:

Well, with that in mind, I would suggest that Mark has done a better job than Keith Burt when it comes to signings and outgoing transfer fees and was right to lose his job.

I still have no idea what MA pension has to do with anything even if it is a lot of money.  I couldn't care less about his pension. 

Your thread was titled “our fans are the problem” but then also stated “fans don’t influence what happens on the pitch, and that not being unique to us” (paraphrased)..

So.... are the fans the problem? Pretty simply put, no.

Does MA get more stick the he deserves? Maybe, but hard to know unless you have an insight to share? You use David Lloyd as an example of someone saying positive things, there’s lots of people who have worked with him who do not say nice things so hmmmm....

Question to you, the club set out a top 6 aim this season, that wasn’t the fans. We are laughably far off that. You think that’s the fans fault?

 

 

Edited by ciderwithtommy
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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I think the issue is whether Mark Ashton is paid an average wage for his role or is his package significantly above average. In my opinion and from my knowledge of working with these types of people in companies similarly or larger sized than BCFC an average package for a CEO at Bristol City FC SHOULD be in the region of £350-£400K. With that in mind, would you describe the job he does as justifying his package? You might well think he does justify it but that is the perspective that many people are applying in order to make their own judgement.,

In the real world, a salary of £500k for a CEO would be commensurate to a business with revenues of £250m+ if not more.  Knowing someone in executive recruitment (cough cough) he will tell you that MA’s salary is way out of kilter.

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

How about his £527k p.a. Salary?

Who’s players did he sell?

Again, couldn't care less.  Not his fault he gets a decent wage, and just another example on how good a negotiator he is. Entirely up to SL what he pays on wages, and the fact he has billions I would suggest he knows better than you and I on finance and ROV.  £527k is around 1.5% of the £35,000,000 we received for the deals made from the Kelly and Webster HE negotiated. So, I'm not bothered by that. 

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19 minutes ago, AshtonYate said:

I'm not saying he can't be criticised, but the amount of criticism he gets IMO is WAY over the top.  The same with MA.  

Meh, that's your opinion. All I'm saying is that on the pitch, where it actually matters, we have spent over a decade trying and failing to match the achievements of the 07/08 season. That's the closest we've been to Prem football which is supposedly the aim. Sure, we've picked up the JPT and won league one, which is nice but not enough. 

It's all opinions. I'm not expecting any European trophies or anything, just that for the 100s of millions Lansdown has poured into the club there's not much on the pitch to show for it in terms of tangible results. The training ground and stadium improvements are incredible, but are ultimately for nothing if they don't help bring success on the pitch, at least for me.

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7 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

About to have to duck out to do some work but my recollection of Keith Burt is shaking him by the hand and thanking him for the single best summer of transfers I can recall! What a side he and Cotts assembled.

A side that was about to be relegated from the championship.  Everyone seems to miss that part out.  

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In the real world, a salary of £500k for a CEO would be commensurate to a business with revenues of £250m+ if not more.  Knowing someone in executive recruitment (cough cough) he will tell you that MA’s salary is way out of kilter.

I'm not sure why people get so sensitive when people question it. I am self employed and if I started adding £150 onto my daily rate I might have to explain to a prospective Client what they are getting at my inflated hourly rate compared to the guy down the road from me who charges the average daily rate. I would probably be short of work fairly quickly too!!

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5 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

Your thread was titled “our fans are the problem” but then also stated “fans don’t influence what happens on the pitch, and that not being unique to us” (paraphrased)..

So.... are the fans the problem? Pretty simply put, no.

Does MA get more stick the he deserves? Maybe, but hard to know unless you have an insight to share? You use David Lloyd as an example of someone saying positive things, there’s lots of people who have worked with him who do not say nice things so hmmmm....

Question to you, the club set out a top 6 aim this season, that wasn’t the fans. We are laughably far off that. You think that’s the fans fault?

 

 

No, of course not.  But it certainly isn't MA's either.  

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A lot of posters are talking about the relationship between the CEO and the manager, here is where a lots of the misconceptions are born, until Nige appeared our club has not had a manager but a coach under the current CEO.
LJ proved emphatically that he was working with what he was given, not necessarily what he asked for, which was reflected in his bizarre team selections and favouritism, Holden also had to work with the tools to hand, though I don’t feel he had favourites.

We can only guess where we would be if injuries had not become such a big problem and that situation must be addressed urgently - so many hamstrings cannot be a coincidence, either the fitness and training is wrong or our pretty pitch is causing problems - has to be sorted!

SL. We can’t really fault him, he’s poured millions into the club he obviously loves and he’s made some mistakes along the way, surprise! He’s human too! 
However we will never see players tearing up contracts to keep the club afloat under his reign!

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Don't make the mistake of thinking this forum is the barometer for how the majority of fans think or feel about the club.

Most are largely apathetic however we have a vocal minority on here having meltdowns about the tea lady not buying into the clubs DNA or getting hooked by troll posters who delight in sowing discord.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, dave36 said:

A lot of posters are talking about the relationship between the CEO and the manager, here is where a lots of the misconceptions are born, until Nige appeared our club has not had a manager but a coach under the current CEO.
LJ proved emphatically that he was working with what he was given, not necessarily what he asked for, which was reflected in his bizarre team selections and favouritism, Holden also had to work with the tools to hand, though I don’t feel he had favourites.

We can only guess where we would be if injuries had not become such a big problem and that situation must be addressed urgently - so many hamstrings cannot be a coincidence, either the fitness and training is wrong or our pretty pitch is causing problems - has to be sorted!

SL. We can’t really fault him, he’s poured millions into the club he obviously loves and he’s made some mistakes along the way, surprise! He’s human too! 
However we will never see players tearing up contracts to keep the club afloat under his reign!

We now have 18 year old kids doing hamstrings..................

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4 minutes ago, AshtonYate said:

Again, couldn't care less.  Not his fault he gets a decent wage, and just another example on how good a negotiator he is. Entirely up to SL what he pays on wages, and the fact has billions I would suggest he knows better than you and I on finance and ROV.  £527k is around 1.5% of the £35,000,000 we received for the deals made from the Kelly and Webster deals HE negotiated. So, I'm not bothered by that. 

Nor the £41.4m losses he’s presided over either then?  Okay, that’s fine.

We won’t hear you mentioning player wages in any player performance related debate then.  Just so I’m clear...yeah?

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51 minutes ago, Chairman Mao said:

Say what you like about MA but he does seem to sell players on well. Before he came in wasn't our record transfer fee received Ade Akinbiyi?

I've never really felt sure about people suggesting we only get the fees we do for players since he's been here, because of him. Do people think if he wasn't here we'd not have got the same? Especially considering the way the market went crazy in the past 4/5 years anyway.

Since Ashton has been here, the big 7 that we've sold (Transfermarkt)

Webster for £20m
Kelly for £13m
Kodjia for £12m
Reid for £10m
Brownhill for £9m 
Flint for £7m
Bryan for £6m

Webster, Kodjia, Kelly & Flint all had a long time left on their contracts. Webster probably the best CB in the champ that season, Kodjia was one of the top goalscorers in his first season & Kelly is young, and English which tends to add a premium on. 

Flint was sold at around about his value at the time, Gibson moved on from Boro that same summer for £15m, Mawson went Fulham for £15m, Mepham went Bournemouth for £12m.

Brownhill we were forced into a sale because of the release fee in the summer,  £9m was probably a good fee considering. 

Reid at £10m & Bryan at £6m were probably also good fees whilst not being great. Neither were going to sign new deals so had to get rid before they became free agents the following summer. 

I feel like most of our big saleable assets have gone, most were here prior to MA joining. How many have signed since that we're likely to turn a decent profit on?

Now of course that's all opinion, but I just don't see reason to get carried away like most some.

Edited by Carey 6
I say most, I mean some. Most now dislike the man!
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14 minutes ago, AshtonYate said:

No, of course not.  But it certainly isn't MA's either.  

You need to change the title of the thread then as you have answered your own question. 
 

“Certainly” isn’t Marks fault, hmmmm - Think an explanation might be needed on that one as well, as you are asking people to justify their stance. 

 

Edited by ciderwithtommy
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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

OP.

If you genuinely think my view of club employee performance is based on the fact they wear a suit, talk in a Corporate way, etc, then you’ve seriously misjudged where my view comes from.  I expect him to wear a suit, I expect him to talk in a way according to his role.  If you think I’ve joined a witch hunt, then check the analysis and investigation I’ve done.  If that happens to tie up nicely with what others have found out too, some through direct experience of dealing with him, then it’s gonna inform abd influence other posters’ views too, that’s how things work!

I also expect him to take responsibility for the delivering the strategy of the owner through the board (of which he is a director) to the various areas of the football club, and on the playing side through the manager / head-coach,

He performs some of those aspects well, administration of a football operation, representing SL’s view at the EFL.

He fails on some too....contract strategy, recruitment, succession planning of staff and players....and those also have a huge bearing on the overall financial strategy of sustainability.  We are nowhere near sustainable.

If you want to give him credit for a successful period, where do you start to see the decline starting?  Or haven’t you acknowledged that if you give him credit for the good, you have to do the other side too.

If you judge that purely on league position (which is a silo attitude imho) then have you missed that we went backwards last season and more again this season?  Or do you choose to ignore that, because it doesn’t fit your agenda.

As for SL, he is not beyond criticism.  I’m grateful for what he’s done, but it’s not a charitable donation either.  There is a big grey area between “giving £150m to BCFC” and investing £150m in BCFC.  When he talked a couple of years back and said (paraphrased) when supporters have invested what I have they can have a bigger say, he showed that there is more to his work that charity!

Well done for actually giving the OP evidence of ways in which MA has so clearly failed in his role as CEO.    I notice that, in his many responses since his opening one, the OP has not countered any of the points you make except with the losing argument of "yes but have you ever worked in a football recruitment? or, were you actually there?" or some such.

People keep going on about the big transfer fees.   Any good commercial director or lawyer could achieve the same especially when there is known competition for a player.

The job of a CEO is to develop and deliver the strategy as agreed with the board.     There has been precious little evidence of strategy in the last 18 months, but the nearest we got to hearing it was in the infamous Ashton Gate press conference introducing Dean Holden as the new manager after a comprehensive 10 week search.     When asked why City were, yet again, appointing a deputy when it has so often failed for us in the past, the answers from JL and MA were that we've built a "machine" (JL's term) to support whoever gets the job, so it's different now.   He meant the Academy, training facilities, recruitment and medical team.       So the strategy is a kind of grow your own talent - sell it off and re-invest in youth.    Fair enough except not when you have no real footballing brain at the top of it (or anywhere in the club).  And you definitely can not grow you own Head Coach that way.

So,  that strategy failed in several ways, all of which are reported in this thread.     SL has had to intervene and appoint a true footballing person in the manager role and it is patently clear for all to see that it will take Nige at least 2 years - maybe six transfer windows - to rebuild the mess that Ashton has created.     The proof of the pudding will be if the new manager is allowed to do what he needs to and whether Ashton sticks around.

 

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I'm also going to ask this here, because I've heard rumours of it in the past. 

Does MA only use a few football agents/agencies & refuse to use others? 

I don't know if this is common for football clubs in this division but I hope we're not limiting ourselves as to what players we sign because of personal relationships etc. I know Pep wont work with Raiola though, so it could be common. 

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It looks like the club decided last summer to tread water whilst the pandemic burned through football's finances. They refused to agree a big transfer pot for Hughton and eventually settled on a managerial Holden strategy to limp through the seaon. Super frustrating for fans who were expected to carry on paying for entertainment, but means the club's in a relatively great position financially.

With ten clubs facing embargoes, City go in to the transfer window facing much less competition than usual. With an unusual number of players out of contract City also have more financial flexibility when it comes to wages than they've ever had before. 

Presumably Ashton's got to get some credit for that.

Whether or not there's a good plan in place or a team who can be trusted to spend it wisely is a different matter.

 

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1 minute ago, Carey 6 said:

I'm also going to ask this here, because I've heard rumours of it in the past. 

Does MA only use a few football agents/agencies & refuse to use others? 

I don't know if this is common for football clubs in this division but I hope we're not limiting ourselves as to what players we sign because of personal relationships etc. I know Pep wont work with Raiola though, so it could be common. 

There are definitely ‘favoured’ agencies, but that’s perfectly normal within football and I wouldn’t slam Ashton on that - it’s widespread. 
The problem isn’t the ones which Ashton favours, it’s the ones he refuses to use. The speculation of course is then, why would you refuse to use some but favour others??? I’ll leave that to everyone’s own interpretation. 

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46 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

When was this? Given only 4 years of our history have been spent in the bottom division of English Professional Football to which we have only been relegated ONCE? Are you confusing us with a different club I can think of that play in the Bristol area?

I spotted that, I assumed they didn’t know what sort of yo-yo club we were so hedged their bets with league 1 or 2! 

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5 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

It looks like the club decided last summer to tread water whilst the pandemic burned through football's finances. They refused to agree a big transfer pot for Hughton and eventually settled on a managerial Holden strategy to limp through the seaon. Super frustrating for fans who were expected to carry on paying for entertainment, but means the club's in a relatively great position financially.

With ten clubs facing embargoes, City go in to the transfer window facing much less competition than usual. With an unusual number of players out of contract City also have more financial flexibility when it comes to wages than they've ever had before. 

Presumably Ashton's got to get some credit for that.

Whether or not there's a good plan in place or a team who can be trusted to spend it wisely is a different matter.

 

Suspect most of the 10 are admin embargoes, likely to be listed ASAP, and have no impact as all.

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Suspect most of the 10 are admin embargoes, likely to be listed ASAP, and have no impact as all.

That weakens my point but it doesn't negate it. The transfer market will be weaker this year and City have got money to spend as a result of an unpopular and frustrating but deliberate policy. There are definite upsides.

Again - whether or not City will have a team or a plan to spend it well is a different matter.

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14 minutes ago, Daniro said:

Well done for actually giving the OP evidence of ways in which MA has so clearly failed in his role as CEO.    I notice that, in his many responses since his opening one, the OP has not countered any of the points you make except with the losing argument of "yes but have you ever worked in a football recruitment? or, were you actually there?" or some such.

People keep going on about the big transfer fees.   Any good commercial director or lawyer could achieve the same especially when there is known competition for a player.

The job of a CEO is to develop and deliver the strategy as agreed with the board.     There has been precious little evidence of strategy in the last 18 months, but the nearest we got to hearing it was in the infamous Ashton Gate press conference introducing Dean Holden as the new manager after a comprehensive 10 week search.     When asked why City were, yet again, appointing a deputy when it has so often failed for us in the past, the answers from JL and MA were that we've built a "machine" (JL's term) to support whoever gets the job, so it's different now.   He meant the Academy, training facilities, recruitment and medical team.       So the strategy is a kind of grow your own talent - sell it off and re-invest in youth.    Fair enough except not when you have no real footballing brain at the top of it (or anywhere in the club).  And you definitely can not grow you own Head Coach that way.

So,  that strategy failed in several ways, all of which are reported in this thread.     SL has had to intervene and appoint a true footballing person in the manager role and it is patently clear for all to see that it will take Nige at least 2 years - maybe six transfer windows - to rebuild the mess that Ashton has created.     The proof of the pudding will be if the new manager is allowed to do what he needs to and whether Ashton sticks around.

 

Ta.  Always happy to explain my view / rationale.

I do tend to get touchy when the response is “you’re wrong” because you don’t work in football.  Always happy to take alternate views on board too

The debating style of the OP has remarkable likeness to a poster who recently decided to stop following Bristol City, even using some very similar (same?) phrases as that poster.

Mmmm!

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