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I have to say it...


TomThumb84

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Ok, so this is not going to be that popular, but, I am completely underwhelmed by the obvious propaganda from the club on our youth players.

If you look at the level of attention given on social media to (for example), i) Sam Bell’s contract, ii) Sam Pearson starting in the first team, iii) Tommy Conway scoring in training, we are clearly being set up for a massive anti-climax in the summer.

Now, before anyone has a pop, and thats fine, I love the youth of our club coming through and always have, but, and I am sorry, I have not seen anything in any of them that suggests they are good enough to push us on, let alone cope at this level. They might be, with some games at a lower level, build up to it, but nothing says they are now at Championship level right now.

Eight months ago the club wanted and expected Top 6, lets face it, we have a different agenda now, and its a bit worrying.

I have always had, and always will have a “they are ours so they have to be good” problem.

It has held us back. I just think the “we all have to love a player because they come through the system” rhetoric is a bit restrictive.

Sorry, but I just want us to win some games, and challenge for the goal the club set out at the start of the season. 

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2 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

Ok, so this is not going to be that popular, but, I am completely underwhelmed by the obvious propaganda from the club on our youth players.

If you look at the level of attention given on social media to (for example), i) Sam Bell’s contract, ii) Sam Pearson starting in the first team, iii) Tommy Conway scoring in training, we are clearly being set up for a massive anti-climax in the summer.

Now, before anyone has a pop, and thats fine, I love the youth of our club coming through and always have, but, and I am sorry, I have not seen anything in any of them that suggests they are good enough to push us on, let alone cope at this level. They might be, with some games at a lower level, build up to it, but nothing says they are now at Championship level right now.

Eight months ago the club wanted and expected Top 6, lets face it, we have a different agenda now, and its a bit worrying.

I have always had, and always will have a “they are ours so they have to be good” problem.

It has held us back. I just think the “we all have to love a player because they come through the system” rhetoric is a bit restrictive.

Sorry, but I just want us to win some games, and challenge for the goal the club set out at the start of the season. 

The much maligned McGregor has reported that we will be looking to bring in a striker when Famaral leaves, apparently he already has a club lined up abroad. 
 

With finances reduced I am pretty sure next season will see a progression in game time and competence of the youngsters backed up by some decent experienced pros. 

I still believe that the objective is a top six finish and if any player is not good enough to be part of that then they won’t be in the first team on a regular basis.

 

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11 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

The much maligned McGregor has reported that we will be looking to bring in a striker when Famaral leaves, apparently he already has a club lined up abroad. 
 

With finances reduced I am pretty sure next season will see a progression in game time and competence of the youngsters backed up by some decent experienced pros. 

I still believe that the objective is a top six finish and if any player is not good enough to be part of that then they won’t be in the first team on a regular basis.

 

Top 6 finish????

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2 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

Ok, so this is not going to be that popular, but, I am completely underwhelmed by the obvious propaganda from the club on our youth players.

If you look at the level of attention given on social media to (for example), i) Sam Bell’s contract, ii) Sam Pearson starting in the first team, iii) Tommy Conway scoring in training, we are clearly being set up for a massive anti-climax in the summer.

Now, before anyone has a pop, and thats fine, I love the youth of our club coming through and always have, but, and I am sorry, I have not seen anything in any of them that suggests they are good enough to push us on, let alone cope at this level. They might be, with some games at a lower level, build up to it, but nothing says they are now at Championship level right now.

Eight months ago the club wanted and expected Top 6, lets face it, we have a different agenda now, and its a bit worrying.

I have always had, and always will have a “they are ours so they have to be good” problem.

It has held us back. I just think the “we all have to love a player because they come through the system” rhetoric is a bit restrictive.

Sorry, but I just want us to win some games, and challenge for the goal the club set out at the start of the season. 

I think Pearson’s 4-6 windows comment is more than honest enough. There’s no smoke and mirrors there I don’t think. People seem to be not comprehending what he is saying which is it will take 2-3 seasons before he will have us ready. If you take that at face value I fail to see where club shenanigans are coming from?

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49 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think Pearson’s 4-6 windows comment is more than honest enough. There’s no smoke and mirrors there I don’t think. People seem to be not comprehending what he is saying which is it will take 2-3 seasons before he will have us ready. If you take that at face value I fail to see where club shenanigans are coming from?

The Pearson time scale is very similar to the one quoted by Jack Charlton a few decades ago. It's not exactly as he said it but how I understood his thinking.

Year One - assessing, pruning and replacing the playing staff. Don't expect promotion then.

Year Two - more fine tuning of the playing staff but with fewer coming and going. Plan to be in with a shout of promotion.

Year Three - Promotion. Stable team/squad 

Year Four - consolidate in higher league. Give the team a chance but make some changes where necessary. 

Nearing or at end of Year Four, make way for your successor as the squad will need a fresh outlook.

The big difference at the time he said it, while he was still a club manager before he took the Ireland job, was that players could be bought and sold all year and not just in short periods. Hence Pearson's reference to 4 to 6 Transfer windows.

If he stays, Pearson could count the Four years from the start of next pre-season with this three month stint as a real bonus of getting a very close insight into the current squad and with so many out of contract.

PS. Four years is usually the life span of a manager at club level with only the select few like Ferguson and Wenger going on much longer. One might even say that Klopp is suffering the four year curse but that is another thread for the Liverpool fans and forum.

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12 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The Pearson time scale is very similar to the one quoted by Jack Charlton a few decades ago. It's not exactly as he said it but how I understood his thinking.

Year One - assessing, pruning and replacing the playing staff. Don't expect promotion then.

Year Two - more fine tuning of the playing staff but with fewer coming and going. Plan to be in with a shout of promotion.

Year Three - Promotion. Stable team/squad 

Year Four - consolidate in higher league. Give the team a chance but make some changes where necessary. 

Nearing or at end of Year Four, make way for your successor as the squad will need a fresh outlook.

The big difference at the time he said it, while he was still a club manager before he took the Ireland job, was that players could be bought and sold all year and not just in short periods. Hence Pearson's reference to 4 to 6 Transfer windows.

If he stays, Pearson could count the Four years from the start of next pre-season with this three month stint as a real bonus of getting a very close insight into the current squad and with so many out of contract.

But if the message is " don't expect promotion next season " , thats not a good line when trying to sell season tickets.  

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2 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

But if the message is " don't expect promotion next season " , thats not a good line when trying to sell season tickets.  

If you've well and truly bought into the customer rather than supporter thing then probably not.

I'm buying my season ticket without needing to be bullshitted that we will be aiming for Top 6 next season. In fact I'm fed up to the back teeth of hearing Steve Lansdown and Mark Ashton failing miserably to insult my intelligence with their bullshit at season ticket selling time. If fans can't see for themselves before they buy their season ticket that we are not Top 6 material what are they actually watching?

Nigel Pearson hasn't hidden anything - he needs 4-6 windows and has made that crystal clear. If the club right now, two individuals in particular, were to come out and say Top 6 is the aim it would be more likely to PUT ME OFF buying a season ticket to be honest as it would be yet more outright bullshit for the umpteenth time. It's a strange concept that you claim to support a football club but only if the Board lie and say we are aiming for Top 6 (with bottom 6 standard players currently).......and then you take that statement as gospel and moan like **** when the manager and his sub-standard players (for the aim spouted) fail......and then repeat year after year.

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2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If you've well and truly bought into the customer rather than supporter thing then probably not.

I'm buying my season ticket without needing to be bullshitted that we will be aiming for Top 6 next season. In fact I'm fed up to the back teeth of hearing Steve Lansdown and Mark Ashton failing miserably to insult my intelligence with their bullshit at season ticket selling time. If fans can't see for themselves before they buy their season ticket that we are not Top 6 material what are they actually watching?

Nigel Pearson hasn't hidden anything - he needs 4-6 windows and has made that crystal clear. If the club right now, two individuals in particular, were to come out and say Top 6 is the aim it would be more likely to PUT ME OFF buying a season ticket to be honest as it would be yet more outright bullshit for the umpteenth time. It's a strange concept that you claim to support a football club but only if the Board lie and say we are aiming for Top 6 (with bottom 6 standard players currently).......and then you take that statement as gospel and moan like **** when the manager and his sub-standard players (for the aim spouted) fail......and then repeat year after year.

Of course ‘ top six ‘ has to be the objective, it may not be achievable in the short term but if promotion is not the goal then what is the club working towards ?

It is a dangerous route to go down if you aim for mid table because beneath that is a relegation tussle. 
 

Any football club has to be looking for year on year improvement because if not then you get trampled on and overtaken by those who have.

Did I believe that we’d make the playoffs this season ? 
 

For a while ‘ yes’ . We nearly did it with LJ and it didn’t seem beyond credibility to go one step further with the addition of one or two players, notably Wells.

That is history now. 
 

We need to build again and that will take time but this division is so unpredictable that with a good run at the right time who’s to say what could happen ? 
 

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1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

Of course ‘ top six ‘ has to be the objective, it may not be achievable in the short term but if promotion is not the goal then what is the club working towards ?

It is a dangerous route to go down if you aim for mid table because beneath that is a relegation tussle. 
 

Any football club has to be looking for year on year improvement because if not then you get trampled on and overtaken by those who have.

Did I believe that we’d make the playoffs this season ? 
 

For a while ‘ yes’ . We nearly did it with LJ and it didn’t seem beyond credibility to go one step further with the addition of one or two players, notably Wells.

That is history now. 
 

We need to build again and that will take time but this division is so unpredictable that with a good run at the right time who’s to say what could happen ? 
 

Unrealistic aims are stupid and simply demotivate everyone and put people under totally unnecessary pressure when it becomes very obvious very quickly that the aims cannot and will not be achieved.

Improvement next season will be consistently competing rather than being outplayed week after week. In fact that will be a massive improvement and results will take care of themselves.

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3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Top 6 finish????

I don't think there's anything wrong with "Top 6" as a 'stretch' target.

Mid-table more achievable.

We have to remember that it's not entirely in our hands: a lot depends on other clubs' relative strength.

There's a lot facing transfer embargos, and the likes of Bournemouth will be looking to offload if they don't go up.

So in a weak division, we might have a chance.

Besides, "avoid relegation" is hardly inspiring for either fans or players.

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Just now, SecretSam said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with "Top 6" as a 'stretch' target.

Mid-table more achievable.

We have to remember that it's not entirely in our hands: a lot depends on other clubs' relative strength.

There's a lot facing transfer embargos, and the likes of Bournemouth will be looking to offload if they don't go up.

So in a weak division, we might have a chance.

Besides, "avoid relegation" is hardly inspiring for either fans or players.

Given Pearson has already said 4-6 windows it would be odd to state Top 6. Competitive is what I would expect........with runs of games where we don’t hit double figure shots in total, zero or one shot on target, one corner etc. a thing of the past.

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5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Given Pearson has already said 4-6 windows it would be odd to state Top 6. Competitive is what I would expect........with runs of games where we don’t hit double figure shots in total, zero or one shot on target, one corner etc. a thing of the past.

"Competitive" isn't an objective. Objectives need to be measurable.

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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I’m sure NP could come up with something that isn’t unrealistic.

Not his job. Objectives will be set by someone at the top of the club, possibly everyone's favourite pantomime villain. The manager agrees them, but they are his (her) performance metric to achieve.

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2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

If you've well and truly bought into the customer rather than supporter thing then probably not.

I'm buying my season ticket without needing to be bullshitted that we will be aiming for Top 6 next season. In fact I'm fed up to the back teeth of hearing Steve Lansdown and Mark Ashton failing miserably to insult my intelligence with their bullshit at season ticket selling time. If fans can't see for themselves before they buy their season ticket that we are not Top 6 material what are they actually watching?

Nigel Pearson hasn't hidden anything - he needs 4-6 windows and has made that crystal clear. If the club right now, two individuals in particular, were to come out and say Top 6 is the aim it would be more likely to PUT ME OFF buying a season ticket to be honest as it would be yet more outright bullshit for the umpteenth time. It's a strange concept that you claim to support a football club but only if the Board lie and say we are aiming for Top 6 (with bottom 6 standard players currently).......and then you take that statement as gospel and moan like **** when the manager and his sub-standard players (for the aim spouted) fail......and then repeat year after year.

Brilliant response to a rather naive post.

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2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Unrealistic aims are stupid and simply demotivate everyone and put people under totally unnecessary pressure when it becomes very obvious very quickly that the aims cannot and will not be achieved.

Improvement next season will be consistently competing rather than being outplayed week after week. In fact that will be a massive improvement and results will take care of themselves.

Why was “Top 6” unrealistic at the start of the season?

That was the objective the board set after spending the last three years improving our status at Championship level.

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Just now, And Its Smith said:

Either fans can see a 17/18/19 year old and have a good idea of what they will be become or they can’t. If any fan looks at these players and thinks that what they are now is what they will be like in 2-3-4 years then they are naive.  

Naive to not understand why we are “bigging” these lads up now as first team players in the present when we have made a complete mess of recruiting players that can push us towards the Prem.

Seems to me all of a sudden we have to get behind a bunch of “maybe good enough but exciting cause they are young” lads because that is the only thing worth mentioning after the abysmal incompetence of managing this shambles in the last 18 months.

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9 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Naive to not understand why we are “bigging” these lads up now as first team players in the present when we have made a complete mess of recruiting players that can push us towards the Prem.

Seems to me all of a sudden we have to get behind a bunch of “maybe good enough but exciting cause they are young” lads because that is the only thing worth mentioning after the abysmal incompetence of managing this shambles in the last 18 months.

What do you want the club to be saying at the moment? We are losing most games, a load of players are leaving and the club will not want to talk about summer strategy now.

We have a lot of very good youngsters, more than ever before. To not highlight that would be bizarre.

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10 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

What do you want the club to be saying at the moment? We are losing most games, a load of players are leaving and the club will not want to talk about summer strategy now.

We have a lot of very good youngsters, more than ever before. To not highlight that would be bizarre.

Saying nothing would be better, I worry we are setting these lads up to fail based on the standards the fans have been led to believe we want to achieve.

Rather than overkill (my opinion) on Sam Bell signing a contract (I wish him well of course), or Tommy Conway finishing from 10 yards in training (I wish him well of course), I would like to see our communication channels full of positive long-term managerial and first team player contract news.

Unfortunately the club cannot seem to escape this “smoke and mirrors” distraction strategy/culture, and take the average fan for a mug who is easily pulled away from what really counts, a strategy that I would have hoped the club had learnt their lesson with, but clearly have not, with the now ridicule-laden hyperbole that came with appointing Dean Holden.

This is not a dig at any of these lads, more at the club who are a paper thin propaganda machine (my opinion).

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47 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Why was “Top 6” unrealistic at the start of the season?

That was the objective the board set after spending the last three years improving our status at Championship level.

Because the players were nowhere near the standard required and can only play on the counter attack. Add in an inexperienced Manager and the absolute shambles that is this season was always on the cards. The Owner and Board are a bunch of bullshitters when it comes to on field targets, proven time and again.

If people want to fall for it more fool them.

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