Quick moment of inappropriate positivity

[LondonBristolian]

If my calculations are correct, Janneh is the twelfth academy player to appear for us this season, plus two more on the bench. That's obviously not including Moore or Massengo, or players like Nurse, Britton, Pring and Cundy who don't seem that far away from progressing next season.

I know we've had a poor season but, giving that our youth output was pretty much Ribeiro and James Wilson in the period between Lita and Bryan, that's at least some sort of achievement. 

When was the last time we used that many academy products in a season?

 

[mozo]

Well if the 2020-21 season is remembered for the integration of a raft of young talents, a much needed club restructure, the opening of the training ground and the appointment of Big Nige, then we'll probably reflect on the atrocious results as a minor inconvenience.

[joe jordans teeth]

Youth output is all and well but when we are up shiz creek but safe it’s a easy positive,are they making us better is the question 

[LondonBristolian]

22 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Youth output is all and well but when we are up shiz creek but safe it’s a easy positive,are they making us better is the question 

I don’t quite agree. I think the question is “will they make us better in the long term?” As @mozosays above, I could accept this season if we bring through players that will go on to have great careers at the club. But, at the same time, the jury is very much out on that.

[joe jordans teeth]

3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don’t quite agree. I think the question is “will they make us better in the long term?” As @mozosays above, I could accept this season if we bring through players that will go on to have great careers at the club. But, at the same time, the jury is very much out on that.

I think the answer will be no when let’s say to put it nicely they are training with older players who are tosh let’s be honest,they need to go on loan and get away from that lot not be in that toxic environment 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Do we include Bakinson and Semenyo among the 12? First full season...

Pleasing to see Vyner's progress too, as well as his versatility albeit he is 23!

At this time though not all included in the 12.

O'Leary, Vyner, Moore, Bakinson, Massengo, Semenyo and perhaps Pring in the squad next season and seek good loans for the rest?

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Do we include Bakinson and Semenyo among the 12? First full season...

Pleasing to see Vyner's progress too, as well as his versatility albeit he is 23!

At this time though not all included in the 12.

Vyner, Moore, Bakinson, Massengo, Semenyo and perhaps Pring in the squad next season with good loans for the rest?

 

 

 

Have to disagree with you on Moore. Nowhere near the level we need imo. Hasn't come on a jot in the last two years. I would be looking to offload personally.

[Rossi the Robin]

8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Have to disagree with you on Moore. Nowhere near the level we need imo. Hasn't come on a jot in the last two years. I would be looking to offload personally.

Wouldn’t you say Moore is generally a decent player but has the odd stand out howler 

Cut them out and you’ve got a really good player- bit of a John Stones scenario 

 

[Numero Uno]

Just now, Rossi the Robin said:

Wouldn’t you say Moore is generally a decent player but has the odd stand out howler 

Cut them out and you’ve got a really good player- bit of a John Stones scenario 

 

We have to completely change the way we play over time to get to where NP wants us to be. Do I see Taylor Moore as having the attributes needed to be part of a front foot attacking team that can also keep it tight at the back WITHOUT making stupid mistakes on a regular basis? No, I don't. We have far too much "decent" in our squad and very little in the way of quality. That has to change and will cost money meaning "clubs in the bag" and ones who will come good in the "next 5 years" have got to go, simple as that. Their wages are needed to subsidise the quality we need to bring in. Being nice to players who don't quite measure up or might measure up in three years when the penny finally drops at 26 and offering them contracts is not the kind of model that a club like ours can afford to run. He's had TWO YEARS to gradually cut out his mistakes and whilst the likes of Zac Vyner show that they can put in blocks of games without these mistakes happening it simply isn't happening for Taylor Moore.

[The Nest Egg]

James Wilson...goodness me there's the answer to a tough pub quiz question

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 minutes ago, Newquay-Red said:

James Wilson...goodness me there's the answer to a tough pub quiz question

We were very close at one time under McInnes to having an entire back four of Wilsons.

[gary s]

It's great to see we are looking at youngsters , for many years we have had nothing to play for at the end of the season and not looked at our youngsters. Why not play them to see if they are good enough to stay or move on . 

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Wouldn’t you say Moore is generally a decent player but has the odd stand out howler 

Cut them out and you’ve got a really good player- bit of a John Stones scenario 

 

25 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We have to completely change the way we play over time to get to where NP wants us to be. Do I see Taylor Moore as having the attributes needed to be part of a front foot attacking team that can also keep it tight at the back WITHOUT making stupid mistakes on a regular basis? No, I don't. We have far too much "decent" in our squad and very little in the way of quality. That has to change and will cost money meaning "clubs in the bag" and ones who will come good in the "next 5 years" have got to go, simple as that. Their wages are needed to subsidise the quality we need to bring in. Being nice to players who don't quite measure up or might measure up in three years when the penny finally drops at 26 and offering them contracts is not the kind of model that a club like ours can afford to run. He's had TWO YEARS to gradually cut out his mistakes and whilst the likes of Zac Vyner show that they can put in blocks of games without these mistakes happening it simply isn't happening for Taylor Moore.

For me Moore’s best form in a City shirt in the last 2 seasons was:

• alongside Ashley Williams last season when Kalas and Baker were out
• with Vyner and Mawson playing in the middle this season

I think you might move him on if you get the right bid, but I’d be happy to see how he pans out next season.  Basically I’m on the fence.

 

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

For me Moore’s best form in a City shirt in the last 2 seasons was:

• alongside Ashley Williams last season when Kalas and Baker were out
• with Vyner and Mawson playing in the middle this season

I think you might move him on if you get the right bid, but I’d be happy to see how he pans out next season.  Basically I’m on the fence.

 

I can understand why you may be on the fence as he is still under contract so unless we get an acceptable bid that makes it difficult. With the ooc’s though I think NP has to be totally ruthless.......and I’m sure he will be. The more wages we pay on players who “might” come good reduces the amount we can pay for players who are good!!

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I can understand why you may be on the fence as he is still under contract so unless we get an acceptable bid that makes it difficult. With the ooc’s though I think NP has to be totally ruthless.......and I’m sure he will be. The more wages we pay on players who “might” come good reduces the amount we can pay for players who are good!!

Exactimundo.

[mozo]

Perhaps Blackpool will want him back, either loan or cheapish.

[milo1111]

54 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

We were very close at one time under McInnes to having an entire back four of Wilsons.

McInnes did manage to put out an entire back four of SHIT though almost every week.

McGivern , Fontaine, McManus, Foster , et al

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, Newquay-Red said:

James Wilson...goodness me there's the answer to a tough pub quiz question

Hasn’t had too bad a career: 250 or so games in the lower divisions, and presently at Ipswich.

No one has mentioned Cole Skuse as perhaps our most successful academy product of the last twenty years.

[Rossi the Robin]

37 minutes ago, milo1111 said:

McInnes did manage to put out an entire back four of SHIT though almost every week.

McGivern , Fontaine, McManus, Foster , et al

Wasn’t Fontaine CB in our play off season?

Saw him play for Ross County and chatted to  him in Inverness post match a couple of seasons ago -said it was ok up there but not as good as his Bristol time. Weren’t Liverpool looking at him at one point? 

[milo1111]

4 minutes ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Wasn’t Fontaine CB in our play off season?

Saw him play for Ross County and chatted to  him in Inverness post match a couple of seasons ago -said it was ok up there but not as good as his Bristol time. Weren’t Liverpool looking at him at one point? 

Fontaine was good for us for a long while under GJ but was shot to bits during McInnes reign. Much of the blame for that was McInnes fault IMO as he fonts was clearly in need of taking out of the firing line but kept getting picked and made error after error. He was never the same again.

I thought it was Southampton who were after him and IIRC we agreed a fee of 1m but he failed a medical then ended up signing a new deal with us not long after??

[Taz]

Issue with Fontaine is that he was flogged to death. 

Gradually started getting worse, and looking like he needed a break. Instead, he was made captain, and suddenly under too much pressure. You don't usually bench your captain do you?

The decline got worse, he stayed in the side, and got worse, then the side around him got worse even quicker.

By the end of his time here, he was a shadow of the player he once was. Shame, because with the right manager, right coaching, and better players around him, he could have been so much better. Bigger clubs were looking at him for a reason.

Liam Fontaine could and should have moved onto bigger and better things, earning us a decent amount in the process. Instead he went to Hibs on a free. That sums up how bad the club was at that time.

[pillred]

6 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don’t quite agree. I think the question is “will they make us better in the long term?” As @mozosays above, I could accept this season if we bring through players that will go on to have great careers at the club. But, at the same time, the jury is very much out on that.

The problem we seem to have and it's ongoing and I know we are not alone is that any player that seems to show any promise ie Lloyd kelly is quickly sold for a profit which immediately puts us back to square one, yes we can get exited that good young players are on the horizon but I find more and more I'm asking myself but how long can we keep hold of them Semenyo being the latest example with Crystal palace sniffing around (allegedly). 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Have to disagree with you on Moore. Nowhere near the level we need imo. Hasn't come on a jot in the last two years. I would be looking to offload personally.

Moore is an interesting one, can't quite make up my mind really. 4th or 5th choice, in and around cover- the squad, still with room for growth.

Think eg when he'd been not bad early season in 2019/20 albeit prone to an error, him as RCB, Kalas central and Benkovic- right age range for a higher line, all not bad to good on the ball.

Likewise I did wonder for a while about Kalas and Moore as a pair, provided the right midfield in front.

Kalas incidentally last couple of games has had quite a high passing accuracy- I'd like to see that side develop moreso in addition to his blocks and interceptions.

Moore was fairly decent early season, albeit always that error potential. Seem to recall he was quite good at Sheffield United in the Cup, even though we went down to 10.

Something like I dunno:

Kalas and A N Other ie new, 1st choice.

Vyner or new A N Other- 1st Reserve, Vyner can also slot into CM and RB. Maybe both as 1st Reserve depending.

Given we won't be able to go mad on cash splashing, Moore as 4th or 5th CB with potential to work up. Subject to what wages he's on here, I could see that or similar moving forward next season.

[Engvall’s Splinter]

8 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Hasn’t had too bad a career: 250 or so games in the lower divisions, and presently at Ipswich.

No one has mentioned Cole Skuse as perhaps our most successful academy product of the last twenty years.

Skuse?

Surely Reid and Bryan have surpassed him?

[Robbored]

It’s good to see so any academy players coming game thru but how many would have made their debuts f it weren’t for the horrendous injury City have had this season?

 

[tin]

14 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Youth output is all and well but when we are up shiz creek but safe it’s a easy positive,are they making us better is the question 

Very true. I’d like to see a youngster or two show flashes of real promise in these dead rubbers but I haven’t seen that. The chances they’ve had are a sad reflection on our senior pros. 

[mozo]

9 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Moore has had good games as well as bad. In the cup vs Millwall he was very impressive. Looking back at last season he played best alongside Kalas too, like he did there in that Millwall game.

Sheffield United away I thought he was best of our back 3. 

Earlier in the season some very good performances too. So he does have the ability to play well. Just needs consistency, which he has not yet shown.

As a back up option he'd be fine imo. When on form his ability to bring the ball out adds a lot to the team.

Would be ideal if he could cover other positions. When he joined I remember he said he can play centre mid and right back. Don't have a clue how good he is in those other two positions now though.

Yeah the million dollar question is will Moore find that Championship level consistency? The next question is should we be patient enough to see if he can do it here?

[Lanterne Rouge]

10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Moore has had good games as well as bad. In the cup vs Millwall he was very impressive. Looking back at last season he played best alongside Kalas too, like he did there in that Millwall game.

Sheffield United away I thought he was best of our back 3. 

Earlier in the season some very good performances too. So he does have the ability to play well. Just needs consistency, which he has not yet shown.

As a back up option he'd be fine imo. When on form his ability to bring the ball out adds a lot to the team.

Would be ideal if he could cover other positions. When he joined I remember he said he can play centre mid and right back. Don't have a clue how good he is in those other two positions now though.

The thing I`ve always thought about TM is that he lets mistakes get to him, he can`t seem to regain his confidence that easily after he`s made one. He almost seems to go back into his shell for a game or two.

[dREDful]

10 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Hasn’t had too bad a career: 250 or so games in the lower divisions, and presently at Ipswich.

No one has mentioned Cole Skuse as perhaps our most successful academy product of the last twenty years.

Bobby Reid could only dream over the career Skuse has had!

My main memories of Skuse was his constant apologising to the East End for allowing midfields to over run us every week as pathetically gave up our spot in the Championship.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Moore has had good games as well as bad. In the cup vs Millwall he was very impressive.

apart from that back pass from the halfway line that went out for a corner

Looking back at last season he played best alongside Kalas too, like he did there in that Millwall game.

chart below regarding who he played alongside.

Sheffield United away I thought he was best of our back 3. 

Earlier in the season some very good performances too. So he does have the ability to play well. Just needs consistency, which he has not yet shown.

As a back up option he'd be fine imo. When on form his ability to bring the ball out adds a lot to the team.

Would be ideal if he could cover other positions. When he joined I remember he said he can play centre mid and right back. Don't have a clue how good he is in those other two positions now though.

Still never quite understand why his run of games last season came to an end at Barnsley.  Subbed after 72 mins for Baker with City 2-0 up.  Drew 2-2.  Johnson logic I guess.

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