European Super League

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

How do you think fans turned this around?

Fans (combined with pressure from people with a platform ie players and pundits) made a huge amount of noise about it. Everyone was talking about it and it was clear from the reaction it was a landslide of negative opinion. I think it was strength of feeling that turned this around.

If stadiums were open I genuinely believe it would've been a bit unsafe for some of these owners and board members responsible. They completely underestimated how unpopular this was. 

[Steve Watts]

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think actually in this instance there was fan power. They clearly drastically underestimated the backlash. I don't really know how, all it would've taken is a few focus groups of supporters to understand the strength of feeling. As you say, a total PR disaster.

I presume that each club signed up to an NDA at the start of this process and so fans focus groups would've been a non-starter.  Cotswold red is probably right in that they assumed because their clubs would be "elite forever" that fans would crave that and fall into line.  Arrogance of the highest order.

[Phileas Fogg]

Just now, Steve Watts said:

I presume that each club signed up to an NDA at the start of this process and so fans focus groups would've been a non-starter.  Cotswold red is probably right in that they assumed because their clubs would be "elite forever" that fans would crave that and fall into line.  Arrogance of the highest order.

Good point, you're probably right.

Interestingly on Twitter there was a far more positive reaction from international fans of these clubs (as you'd expect I suppose) who were clearly the target market. I think if it had come to fruition the "legacy fans" would've boycotted the games.

[Keep the Faith]

It’s utterly bizarre how this has worked out. You would assume they were very much aware of how unpopular it would be which is why it was all so clandestine.

However as soon as this became apparent they all back track. Surely they did a full assessment of likely outcomes before they went ahead with this and I can’t really understand how they didn’t have a plan for this sort of reaction. It’s all very strange and feels like it’s been rushed through.

All this talk of football clubs being businesses but a business (a successful one anyway) wouldn’t even consider making and implementing a decision as big as this in such a way.

You would assume at the very least they expected an initial negative reaction which they planned on riding out. Perhaps it was the threat of legal intervention from the government that they didn’t anticipate and really spooked them. They probably thought that with COVID going on they wouldn’t care but actually everyone was just happy to have something else to talk about for a bit!

[CyderInACan]

Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

Interestingly on Twitter there was a far more positive reaction from international fans of these clubs (as you'd expect I suppose) who were clearly the target market. I think if it had come to fruition the "legacy fans" would've boycotted the games.

Isn't that just one of the most demeaning things about this entire charade? They really had no idea. 

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Fans (combined with pressure from people with a platform ie players and pundits) made a huge amount of noise about it. Everyone was talking about it and it was clear from the reaction it was a landslide of negative opinion. I think it was strength of feeling that turned this around.

If stadiums were open I genuinely believe it would've been a bit unsafe for some of these owners and board members responsible. They completely underestimated how unpopular this was. 

Surely the voices that resonated were player, managers, sponsors. 

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

How do you think fans turned this around?

To coin a Pearson phrase it was a collective effort from fans, ex-players, players, managers, clubs, associations and even politicians that turned this around. Far better effort from them in my opinion than a minority of people who seemed to meekly accept that the Big 6 hold the power and will do what they like with nothing you can do about it. Some people had no faith. There are still problems to be sorted out but the types of grovelling apology from Arsenal and the Liverpool owner (which would be hugely embarrassing to a billionaire like him) have shown what can be achieved if people care enough to stand up and be counted.

[CotswoldRed]

Well, I hope they're all liable for hundreds of millions of pounds having gone back on their agreements. 

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, mozo said:

Surely the voices that resonated were player, managers, sponsors. 

It's a collective, without the fan noise you may not have had the rest. 

It seems like you don't want to put this down to fan pressure, why?

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, CyderInACan said:

Isn't that just one of the most demeaning things about this entire charade? They really had no idea. 

The clip from sky highlighted their appalling arrogance. Talking about their disregard for the wider good of football. Kin disgusting

[Steve Watts]

4 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Isn't that just one of the most demeaning things about this entire charade? They really had no idea. 

Oh they probably did, but ticket revenue is a drop in the ocean for these clubs so they wouldn't have cared.  It's all about the sponsorship.  As soon as they realised that sponsors may start pulling out because of the negative press - guilt by association and all that - they withdrew.

[exAtyeoMax]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

Surely the voices that resonated were player, managers, sponsors. 

And governments. Johnson could’ve bought in new laws to stop it

[CotswoldRed]

My son has been watching that Spurs thing on Amazon of late. I don't watch it, but on passing through a few times I've thought "that Levy chap - wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him". 

[exAtyeoMax]

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's a collective, without the fan noise you may not have had the rest. 

It seems like you don't want to put this down to fan pressure, why?

An angry mob doesn’t have any financial sway. Yes it would’ve helped but if they had no regard for the legacy fans in the first place! As everyone says, money talks!!

[Super]

John Henry the first with a grovelling apology.

[Spud55]

I think they massively underestimated the fans in this country, let's remember most players are fans as well before they play, I think they assumed there would be a split in the fans, they will have always expected some backlash but I think they assumed that they would only come from the hardcore support, and it would be at worst a 50/50 split and the armchair fans would love the idea. 

Then it became apparent that this was not the case and the vast majority of fans not only disliked the idea they were massively opposed to it, to the point where it transcended every club, we're it not for Covid you would have had Man U and Liverpool fans marching together, Man U and Leeds fans, arsenal and spurs fans united against this they can't stand against that even before you add in almost every fan of every football club in the country. 

Add the players, pundits and Govt to this mix and they were in a massive hole that they had dug for themselves. 

They failed to understand that the proper fans of even the bug teams put immense value on the pyramid and the structure as a whole. 

Back when I used to go away a lot you would cross paths with fans of the big teams going away and unlike some of the armchair fans who would belittle fans of the smaller clubs the "proper" fans understand that the clubs are different and their players are better but the fans are no different, just because they had Aguero the man City fans know that it felt no different to them when Aguero scored against QPR than it did to Carlisle fans when Glass scored too keep them in the league. 

[Olé]

15 minutes ago, Keep the Faith said:

It’s utterly bizarre how this has worked out. You would assume they were very much aware of how unpopular it would be

I'm sure with all the face saving now required that all manner of stuff is going to leak about how this came about.

I'm really beginning to wonder (particularly as they're left clinging to this shambles) whether Perez and the two cripplingly indebted Spanish clubs tricked the rest of them (certainly the English clubs) into this - note the ESL was being setup by a private equity house used by Perez (Key Capital Partners in Madrid) and they'd have fed everyone else the term sheet.

That means Perez and Key Capital would quite likely have been securing the lending from JP Morgan and weaving the story on the media partners they had lined up to everyone else. This would have created a FOMO for all the English clubs when in fact Perez was just trying to hook these other rich clubs to come and make possible a cash cow to keep his ship afloat.

The only bizarre thing is how easily English clubs were suckered in. There was a great tweet last night from Simon Kuper who is a fantastic football author and financial journalist, along the lines that we wildly overestimate how clever executives in football clubs are (I've always felt the same about MA when people say he sounds like a businessman - he doesn't). 

By the way, this is not me making an easy excuse for the English clubs, I have nothing to defend them for and hope they're sanctioned for this brazen attempt to shaft the rest of us - however England has nothing like the corruption around football clubs in Spain, Italy, Portugal etc (often state enabled) and so the six were likely naive to how far Perez would stoop. 

Clubs like Real Madrid and Barca (and by no means only them) bend every rule they can, seek state favour on matters such as land ownership, tax, and do so in order to throw ridiculous sums of money at their clubs. Being president of these clubs affords huge influence which is why people like Perez see maintaining the flow of cash as critical to their own prestige.

My bet is he saw this as just another exercise in manipulating all those around him to prop up his own horrific economics. I am sure Barcelona and Juventus would have been onside too, they have a similarly dubious history of seeking advantages. At worst, six English clubs in a lucrative domestic league were conned into shifting their financial power into Madrid's orbit.

No doubt by Sunday a lot of them, including several in England (Man Utd my bet led the charge given how leveraged in debt they are too) were 100% onboard with the idea, but I can well believe Man City or Chelsea got in more reluctantly as they're not saddled with debt. Let's see what they all now say about this, either way, NONE of them should be easily forgiven.

[Steve Watts]

 

8 minutes ago, Super said:

John Henry the first with a grovelling apology.

And it looked like he hated every minute of it.  It smacked of when you were a kid and your mum told you to say sorry to the neighbour for destroying her rose bush!

[mozo]

41 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's a collective, without the fan noise you may not have had the rest. 

It seems like you don't want to put this down to fan pressure, why?

I genuinely think that had the ESL done a better job at selling this to important stakeholders such as sponsors, managers and players, they would have been happy to ignore the uproar from fans.

I also worry about fan hubris when in reality we are ignored time and again.

Hope you're right that fans had influence. Certainly the collective did.

[Carey 6]

It was a load of factors which has made them pull out. 

Fans voicing their discontent. 

Current & Ex players all hating it. Pundits like Neville, Carra and Lineker all saying they would not work on it. 

Sky, BT & Amazon all distancing themselves

A few big clubs turning it down anyway.

UK Gov threatening to get involved. 

I'm actually *prowed* of how everyone has come together, now let's keep it up and push for further reforms to the game. 

[Roger Red Hat]

21 minutes ago, Olé said:

That means Perez and Key Capital would quite likely have been securing the lending from JP Morgan

Yep, I read yesterday that JP Morgan are bankrolling the Bernebeu refurb to the tune of something like 500m.

There's also some interesting info on the appalling person who now owns AC Milan.

[exAtyeoMax]

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12282293/owners-arent-as-powerful-as-they-think

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's a collective, without the fan noise you may not have had the rest. 

It seems like you don't want to put this down to fan pressure, why?

 

28 minutes ago, mozo said:

I genuinely think that had the ESL done a better job at selling this to important stakeholders such as sponsors, managers and players, they would have been happy to ignore the uproar from fans.

I also worry about fan hubris when in reality we are ignored time and again.

Hope you're right that fans had influence. Certainly the collective did.

 

15 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

It was a load of factors which has made them pull out. 

Fans voicing their discontent. 

Current & Ex players all hating it. Pundits like Neville, Carra and Lineker all saying they would not work on it. 

Sky, BT & Amazon all distancing themselves

A few big clubs turning it down anyway.

UK Gov threatening to get involved. 

I'm actually *prowed* of how everyone has come together, now let's keep it up and push for further reforms to the game. 

Whilst it’s a romantic notion to believe that fan power played a part here, I personally don’t think it did. 
Rewind to Sunday afternoon, when the fans hadn’t heard anything about this and there was no current ‘fan pressure’. UEFA, The FA etc had all already told these clubs that if they go through with it then they’ll be kicked out of their own leagues. 
 

Now, the Super League plan was to play it alongside the existing domestic leagues. So the very fact they UEFA etc held their nerve and said “no, you won’t be allowed in our competitions”, is the main factor at play here. 
 

Yes, the fan, media and player backlash does hold some sway, but it’s incredibly minor. 
These clubs of course will now come out and try to save face by saying “it’s the strength of feeling of the fans which turned us around”, but the true reality is that the major turning point will have been that they’d be kicked out of their current lucrative leagues. 
 

In short, they’ve looked at the finances - we currently have £1. If we do this league we get an extra 50p, giving us £1.50 overall. Once the existing £1 was taken off the table they’ve realised they’ll only be making 50p. 
Let’s not be naive and think that there was some romantic notion that these billionaires took the fans feelings into account. It’s still 99.99% a monetary decision. 

[JoeAman08]

14 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Yep, I read yesterday that JP Morgan are bankrolling the Bernebeu refurb to the tune of something like 500m.

There's also some interesting info on the appalling person who now owns AC Milan.

Yea and Inter are in a mess because their Chinese owners have bern told by the Chinese government they need to stop investing so much into football. That is why there are rumours about their best players leaving. Almost all of the foreign clubs involved have massive money issues and this was their way out of years of bad management. 

[CotswoldRed]

42 minutes ago, Olé said:

I'm sure with all the face saving now required that all manner of stuff is going to leak about how this came about.

I'm really beginning to wonder (particularly as they're left clinging to this shambles) whether Perez and the two cripplingly indebted Spanish clubs tricked the rest of them (certainly the English clubs) into this - note the ESL was being setup by a private equity house used by Perez (Key Capital Partners in Madrid) and they'd have fed everyone else the term sheet.

That means Perez and Key Capital would quite likely have been securing the lending from JP Morgan and weaving the story on the media partners they had lined up to everyone else. This would have created a FOMO for all the English clubs when in fact Perez was just trying to hook these other rich clubs to come and make possible a cash cow to keep his ship afloat.

The only bizarre thing is how easily English clubs were suckered in. There was a great tweet last night from Simon Kuper who is a fantastic football author and financial journalist, along the lines that we wildly overestimate how clever executives in football clubs are (I've always felt the same about MA when people say he sounds like a businessman - he doesn't). 

By the way, this is not me making an easy excuse for the English clubs, I have nothing to defend them for and hope they're sanctioned for this brazen attempt to shaft the rest of us - however England has nothing like the corruption around football clubs in Spain, Italy, Portugal etc (often state enabled) and so the six were likely naive to how far Perez would stoop. 

Clubs like Real Madrid and Barca (and by no means only them) bend every rule they can, seek state favour on matters such as land ownership, tax, and do so in order to throw ridiculous sums of money at their clubs. Being president of these clubs affords huge influence which is why people like Perez see maintaining the flow of cash as critical to their own prestige.

My bet is he saw this as just another exercise in manipulating all those around him to prop up his own horrific economics. I am sure Barcelona and Juventus would have been onside too, they have a similarly dubious history of seeking advantages. At worst, six English clubs in a lucrative domestic league were conned into shifting their financial power into Madrid's orbit.

No doubt by Sunday a lot of them, including several in England (Man Utd my bet led the charge given how leveraged in debt they are too) were 100% onboard with the idea, but I can well believe Man City or Chelsea got in more reluctantly as they're not saddled with debt. Let's see what they all now say about this, either way, NONE of them should be easily forgiven.

Good Post!

I'll forgive them, so long as it comes wrapped in a 30 point deduction (for next season). 

Would make the season really exciting as most will risk relegation and be out of Europe the year after. 

And it will introduce all sorts of financial risk. 

[Lrrr]

7 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Good Post!

I'll forgive them, so long as it comes wrapped in a 30 point deduction (for next season). 

Would make the season really exciting as most will risk relegation and be out of Europe the year after. 

And it will introduce all sorts of financial risk. 

I think I’d say the PL impose a season ban from Europe on all clubs, not that this effects Arsenal.... and a 12 month transfer embargo. However all PL clubs have to sign an exclusivity agreement (at least 50 years) that they’ll only participate in UEFA/FIFA/FA etc authorised competitions. 

[Kingswood Robin]

European Super League?

 

[mozo]

4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I think I’d say the PL impose a season ban from Europe on all clubs, not that this effects Arsenal.... and a 12 month transfer embargo. However all PL clubs have to sign an exclusivity agreement (at least 50 years) that they’ll only participate in UEFA/FIFA/FA etc authorised competitions. 

Just a thought, what do the Champions League sponsors and TV networks want? Are they happy for their product to be deprived many key players in their product?

Any punishment that causes financial loss to football - off the back of Covid - could be cutting your nose off?

I'm just trying to think like the money men here.

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

And governments. Johnson could’ve bought in new laws to stop it

So he kept saying. I’m not quite so sure how though. Not if the clubs were determined enough, and not without creating all sorts of unforeseen consequences. It would have been knee jerk legislation at its worst. We’ll never know I guess. 

[TonyTonyTony]

10 minutes ago, mozo said:

Just a thought, what do the Champions League sponsors and TV networks want? Are they happy for their product to be deprived many key players in their product?

Any punishment that causes financial loss to football - off the back of Covid - could be cutting your nose off?

I'm just trying to think like the money men here.

Yes but they have to be punished - severely to make them never do it again. If UEFA are scared of losing revenue in CL because the big 12 are not in it for a season or 2, so be it. Letting them get away with it will only increase their sense of entitlement. Go in like a tonne of bricks - points deduction next season, so they will struggle to qualify for CL, transfer embargo and massive fine. *******