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Bristol City Investment


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2 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

Potentially. But all billionaires are not created equal. Although both a moral issue, there  is a big difference between using zero hours contracts and having a journalist hacked up because he made you a bit upset with his words. 

I was simply making a point around morality knowle. I'm not interested in politicizing it.

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2 hours ago, Red_Alligator said:

I was simply making a point around morality knowle. I'm not interested in politicizing it.

Not sure I follow this. 

I read your point as anyone who is a billionaire has some moral questions to answer. Which I would think is a political point about capitalism, no? Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

My point is just that, maybe that is right. But even if you are ok with a capitalist system where people can become billionaires when there are so many people with nothing at all, you can still look at those billionaires and make different moral judgements about them individually - how they got so rich and what they have done with their money and power. 

So just using the Newcastle example, I would be much more comfortable with Mike Ashley as owner than MBS, even though, football-wise, MBS would probably be better for my club.

So, if Ive understood you right, I agree with you that no one gets that rich without some pretty selfish or dubious behaviour and so there may always be some moral compromise in taking big investment from a rich person. But there are a few people in the world that if BCFC were sold to then I'd be immediately done as a fan. Personal choice and I definitely dont judge people that would feel differently. 

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3 hours ago, Harry said:

No, not independent options, just one that I thought I’d throw out there for discussion. 
I think it would be ballsy as it would be looking at what is universally (amongst fans) deemed as a successful model in Germany and having the courage to implement it in England. 
If you look at the German clubs, they make a profit. They even do this with lower ticket prices. They bring more money in through sponsorship and commercial revenue. 
FFP pretty much restricts what an outside investor can put in (and thus take out) anyway. Perhaps it’s time to consider a different model, one where the fans are at the heart of it and the clubs run themselves as ‘proper’ businesses (ie budgeting themselves based on matchday revenue, commercial revenue, sponsorship etc) rather than relying on rich men to cover their own losses. 

Could you just import the German model into England though? 

Maybe this is the season coming up if it was ever to work just because there is likely to be a bit of a reset in wage levels for ooc players moving to new clubs. And lower wages in Germany is a big reason that model works there. 

But there is also the tradition of fan/worker ownership/representation in football/business; the 50+1 rule that binds nearly all othere clubs in Germany so everyone playing on same level. And to pick up on my earlier point, seeing as how many newcastles fans were so willing to accept money from Saudi Arabia without any moral qualms, I think the culture in English clubs is they want big backers to spend big money on big transfers and prioritise that over fan representation. 

Also, I don't know enough about it, by Bayern are so totally dominant in Germany that is the 50+1 rule inhibiting anyone's ability to compete?

I love the idea in principle, though, dont get me wrong. Just struggling to see how it would translate into English football if one lone actor decided to bring it in at their club. And without SLs financial backing (which I assume he'd withdraw after giving club away), who is picking up the bill for our losses each year? We'd have to totally reset our wage bill to make sure we weren't losing so much each year - and, reading through this forum, that is definitely not what fans here are looking for. Quite the opposite. 

 

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18 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Not sure I follow this. 

I read your point as anyone who is a billionaire has some moral questions to answer. Which I would think is a political point about capitalism, no? Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

My point is just that, maybe that is right. But even if you are ok with a capitalist system where people can become billionaires when there are so many people with nothing at all, you can still look at those billionaires and make different moral judgements about them individually - how they got so rich and what they have done with their money and power. 

So just using the Newcastle example, I would be much more comfortable with Mike Ashley as owner than MBS, even though, football-wise, MBS would probably be better for my club.

So, if Ive understood you right, I agree with you that no one gets that rich without some pretty selfish or dubious behaviour and so there may always be some moral compromise in taking big investment from a rich person. But there are a few people in the world that if BCFC were sold to then I'd be immediately done as a fan. Personal choice and I definitely dont judge people that would feel differently. 

Thanks knowle, nice response, and i think that broadly we are in agreement.

 

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14 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Could you just import the German model into England though? 

Maybe this is the season coming up if it was ever to work just because there is likely to be a bit of a reset in wage levels for ooc players moving to new clubs. And lower wages in Germany is a big reason that model works there. 

But there is also the tradition of fan/worker ownership/representation in football/business; the 50+1 rule that binds nearly all othere clubs in Germany so everyone playing on same level. And to pick up on my earlier point, seeing as how many newcastles fans were so willing to accept money from Saudi Arabia without any moral qualms, I think the culture in English clubs is they want big backers to spend big money on big transfers and prioritise that over fan representation. 

Also, I don't know enough about it, by Bayern are so totally dominant in Germany that is the 50+1 rule inhibiting anyone's ability to compete?

I love the idea in principle, though, dont get me wrong. Just struggling to see how it would translate into English football if one lone actor decided to bring it in at their club. And without SLs financial backing (which I assume he'd withdraw after giving club away), who is picking up the bill for our losses each year? We'd have to totally reset our wage bill to make sure we weren't losing so much each year - and, reading through this forum, that is definitely not what fans here are looking for. Quite the opposite. 

 

On the contrary, I’d happily see us take the lead and attempt to implement this sort of change, and if it meant we became a football club that lived within its means but ended up in L1, so be it. Wouldn’t bother me. I’d hope that many more would follow, and then it’ll even itself out again. 

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39 minutes ago, Harry said:

On the contrary, I’d happily see us take the lead and attempt to implement this sort of change, and if it meant we became a football club that lived within its means but ended up in L1, so be it. Wouldn’t bother me. I’d hope that many more would follow, and then it’ll even itself out again. 

That would be great.

...

Just a thought... If Lansdown were (hypothetically) in advanced talks with investors, when, if at all, would he involve the Supporters Club and Trust?

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7 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

the tradition of fan/worker ownership/representation in football/business

The German model is misunderstood.  It sounds just like fan ownership and representation but it is anything but.  The structures in place simply ensure that a tiny number of individuals wield huge amount of power and unlike in the UK they simply spend the sponsors money rather than theirs.  

With the rise of RB Leipzig other clubs are slowly moving towards a UK model.

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I can remember at one of those Lansdown meets the fans at an away pub things that Steve used to do once a year, Wolverhampton I think it was.

It was just after the Malaysians had taken over Cardiff and were changing blue to red etc.

I asked him if he could promise he wouldn’t sell City to someone like that.

His answer started badly, a straight “No, I can’t guarantee that” but then he did say that after a recent visit to Cardiff he found the whole place soulless and had completely lost it’s identity and hoped Bristol City would never be in that situation.

It did make me realise he wasn’t going to be one of those owners that hangs around until his dying days, not in the capacity he is now anyway.

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We have to remember investment into Bristol Sport and BCFC are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Steve has a huge multiillion pound project to get of the ground, and I imagine the investment will relate more to the new indoor arena, hotel, housing, and commercial work than BCFC.

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11 minutes ago, Fiale said:

We have to remember investment into Bristol Sport and BCFC are not necessarily the same thing.

 

Steve has a huge multiillion pound project to get of the ground, and I imagine the investment will relate more to the new indoor arena, hotel, housing, and commercial work than BCFC.

Nope. It’s BCFC. He’s looking for someone to buy the football club. He’s keeping all the other stuff for himself. 

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Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

How does that affect ownership of the stadium?

My best guess is that the stadium is separate. It’s purely the football club that is for sale. 
I guess that’s at least one positive from SL, in that whomever buys the club from him won’t be doing it as some sort of land-grab, as the purchase is for the football club only and not the stadium, training ground, etc. 

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50 minutes ago, Harry said:

My best guess is that the stadium is separate. It’s purely the football club that is for sale. 
I guess that’s at least one positive from SL, in that whomever buys the club from him won’t be doing it as some sort of land-grab, as the purchase is for the football club only and not the stadium, training ground, etc. 

If it is only BCFC Ltd, he’d have to split out Ashton Gate Ltd (Stadium) from BC Holdings Ltd (non-trading).  That’s obviously possible.  I sense SL wants to keep the infrastructure.

I like the sound of that from a feeling that it’s “protecting us” point of view.  Flip-side is whether that’s exciting enough to get investment.  The obvious carrot is / was £100m+ from achieving promotion.  The danger is £50m costs vs £16m revenue on the pure football side.  I suspect investors would want a slice of the AG revenues too.

Gonna be interesting to watch this.

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I cant see any investor making a move at the moment. The situation with the ESL effects all football finance. Someone said above the carrot for any investor is 100M PL cash - if the big 6 leave the PL revenues will almost certainly drop. Its all up in the air. Not unless SL just wants out, and will sell on the cheap, but that seems unlikely given what he has put in.

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Sometimes, I hate football. I just want to go and watch my team, however rotten, feel that pride as they come out, representing MY home town.

I hate all the money stuff. I know it was inevitable, particularly after the PL was set up, but it still stinks. 

I'm not interested in seeing the greatest players in the world, showing off their skills. If that was all I wanted, I'd just go and watch one of those unfathomable e-sports events (I mean, WHY?!?!?!?!?!)

I would rather we were a League 2 under-achiever like Exeter, owned by the fans, than a PL superteam propelled by (shady) money.

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5 hours ago, Harry said:

Nope. It’s BCFC. He’s looking for someone to buy the football club. He’s keeping all the other stuff for himself. 

Given the events of the past couple of days I would think the Bristol Sport is a far more investable commodity than BCFC just now

 

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10 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Sometimes, I hate football. I just want to go and watch my team, however rotten, feel that pride as they come out, representing MY home town.

I hate all the money stuff. I know it was inevitable, particularly after the PL was set up, but it still stinks. 

I'm not interested in seeing the greatest players in the world, showing off their skills. If that was all I wanted, I'd just go and watch one of those unfathomable e-sports events (I mean, WHY?!?!?!?!?!)

I would rather we were a League 2 under-achiever like Exeter, owned by the fans, than a PL superteam propelled by (shady) money.

We dream of an away day at Yatton

 

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1 hour ago, BigTone said:

Blue Flame or The Star ?

To be fair I left Clevedon in 1968 whe I was 13 and have only been back briefly since then but if you can recommend one or the other to meet up in sometime.....(when you return from France in your private plane!)

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5 minutes ago, Midred said:

To be fair I left Clevedon in 1968 whe I was 13 and have only been back briefly since then but if you can recommend one or the other to meet up in sometime.....(when you return from France in your private plane!)

Must be the Flame

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7 hours ago, Harry said:

Nope. It’s BCFC. He’s looking for someone to buy the football club. He’s keeping all the other stuff for himself. 

Do not believe that for a second.

Buying the football club from a bloke that effectively owns the ground and training facilities and rents those out to multiple other entities would need some kind of an idiot purchaser....But hey they are out there I guess LMFAO! 

 

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7 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Do not believe that for a second.

Buying the football club from a bloke that effectively owns the ground and training facilities and rents those out to multiple other entities would need some kind of an idiot purchaser....But hey they are out there I guess LMFAO! 

 

Roman bought Chelsea but doesn’t own the pitch or the name of the club. 

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9 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

That depends, it can work the other way, and make the club portable. Like Wimbledon/MK . Or you get in a mess like Coventry did. Club without the ground is not ideal either. Not sure a football club without a ground is worth very much outside the Prem league anyway. You could buy City and ground share with a Prem side, ot over the bridge at Cardiff. Tongue in cheek, but selling the club without the ground is safeguarding nothing long term, and when SL is long gone who knows what might happen. I cannot see the ground being put into a trust for the rugby and football clubs. It will get sold one day as part of the real estate project. Who knows who will end up owning it. 

Good points.

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49 minutes ago, Harry said:

Roman bought Chelsea but doesn’t own the pitch or the name of the club. 

Chelsea and Bristol City not the best comparison. However unless you are telling me an oligarch to whom money is absolutely no object is interested then I will tell you right now SL will sell the entirety of Bristol Sport and that oligarch would have it absolutely no other way.

Now not to go down how money gets from Rubles to sterling via dollars to far, but it is an enterprise in itself!

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