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Season Card Purchase and share purchase similarities.


Rich

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Sorry about the long title but I didn't want to tempt people in with click bait.

I also apologise if this has been discussed before, but here goes.

Imagine a stockbroker offering shares for sale in a company.

The company has been in decline for say, four years, though it seemed to be treading water before  a sudden downturn. 

It has spent an awful lot of money on it's infrastructure and stock, even though some of that stock has not increased in value, most probably decreased in value.

It has a good experienced though temporary shop floor manager running the show, with no assurance of the position being made permanent.

Fifty percent of the company's frontline staff are seeking employment elsewhere after not being offered new contracts, so the company would have to seek a new workforce to replace them.

The CEO and his right hand man have resigned to go to a smaller upcoming company.

The current owner wants to shift some of his shares in that company.

It's also possible that the company might lose it's position in the FT index and a considerable reduction in revenue.

Having listed those examples of this company. Do you think it would be an attractive opportunity for possible investors?

The reason I ask the question might be an obvious one, as that is what current season card holders of BCFC are being asked to do and within a restricted time limit. Some of those SC holders will be loyal and blindly support that company, others might well be a little more guarded, what would you do?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Rich said:

Sorry about the long title but I didn't want to tempt people in with click bait.

I also apologise if this has been discussed before, but here goes.

Imagine a stockbroker offering shares for sale in a company.

The company has been in decline for say, four years, though it seemed to be treading water before  a sudden downturn. 

It has spent an awful lot of money on it's infrastructure and stock, even though some of that stock has not increased in value, most probably decreased in value.

It has a good experienced though temporary shop floor manager running the show, with no assurance of the position being made permanent.

Fifty percent of the company's frontline staff are seeking employment elsewhere after not being offered new contracts, so the company would have to seek a new workforce to replace them.

The CEO and his right hand man have resigned to go to a smaller upcoming company.

The current owner wants to shift some of his shares in that company.

It's also possible that the company might lose it's position in the FT index and a considerable reduction in revenue.

Having listed those examples of this company. Do you think it would be an attractive opportunity for possible investors?

The reason I ask the question might be an obvious one, as that is what current season card holders of BCFC are being asked to do and within a restricted time limit. Some of those SC holders will be loyal and blindly support that company, others might well be a little more guarded, what would you do?

 

 

We're talking about supporting a football team not a company though

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18 minutes ago, Rich said:

Sorry about the long title but I didn't want to tempt people in with click bait.

I also apologise if this has been discussed before, but here goes.

Imagine a stockbroker offering shares for sale in a company.

The company has been in decline for say, four years, though it seemed to be treading water before  a sudden downturn. 

It has spent an awful lot of money on it's infrastructure and stock, even though some of that stock has not increased in value, most probably decreased in value.

It has a good experienced though temporary shop floor manager running the show, with no assurance of the position being made permanent.

Fifty percent of the company's frontline staff are seeking employment elsewhere after not being offered new contracts, so the company would have to seek a new workforce to replace them.

The CEO and his right hand man have resigned to go to a smaller upcoming company.

The current owner wants to shift some of his shares in that company.

It's also possible that the company might lose it's position in the FT index and a considerable reduction in revenue.

Having listed those examples of this company. Do you think it would be an attractive opportunity for possible investors?

The reason I ask the question might be an obvious one, as that is what current season card holders of BCFC are being asked to do and within a restricted time limit. Some of those SC holders will be loyal and blindly support that company, others might well be a little more guarded, what would you do?

 

 

Selling/buys season tickets is nothing like selling/buys shares.

You buy shares/equity to have a say in the running of the business/club. You buy a season ticket to watch football. 

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50 minutes ago, Big C said:

We're talking about supporting a football team not a company though

Yes I understand that and I've been doing it for a long time. I'm making comparisons as to whether it's a attractive venture, as in investing time and money for a season card. You can after all support a team, without any cash investment whatsoever.

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45 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Selling/buys season tickets is nothing like selling/buys shares.

You buy shares/equity to have a say in the running of the business/club. You buy a season ticket to watch football. 

I was making an analogy, I know the difference thanks.

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As some Liverpool, Man Utd etc fans are finding out, football is unique in that you can’t change your club, you’re stuck with it for life.

Bristol City are our club when everything is looking rosy and as some of us remember, our club when we’ve gone bust and lie in bottom place of the bottom league.

It’s the how we get out of difficult moments that attracts us back.

We love and miss the pain of being a loyal City fan. Get me back!

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1 hour ago, Rich said:

I was making an analogy, I know the difference thanks.

I think you have misunderstood what an analogy is. It's a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

If you were trying to compare buying a season ticket then an analogy would be buying a yearly cinema pass or even a year Netflix subscription or amazon prime. If you were to compare buying the football club an analogy would be buying a business or maybe a house is a better one. 

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7 minutes ago, Pezo said:

I think you have misunderstood what an analogy is. It's a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

If you were trying to compare buying a season ticket then an analogy would be buying a yearly cinema pass or even a year Netflix subscription or amazon prime. If you were to compare buying the football club an analogy would be buying a business or maybe a house is a better one. 

A very good analogy. You could easily buy a yearly cinema pass and then not particularly want to watch any of the films on offer (although you would have an idea of what is due for release and base your decision on that). We buy a season ticket for our club and are taking a gamble on whether the game v say, Forest will be a great one or a turkey.

The main thing is though that we are never, ever going to take our money elsewhere to a competitor because we`re not happy with the product - we`ll either carry on regardless or pack it in.

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25 minutes ago, Pezo said:

I think you have misunderstood what an analogy is. It's a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

If you were trying to compare buying a season ticket then an analogy would be buying a yearly cinema pass or even a year Netflix subscription or amazon prime. If you were to compare buying the football club an analogy would be buying a business or maybe a house is a better one. 

The analogy is investing your hard earned (or not) cash in a product, not knowing what you're going to get in return. It could be worth it, or not worth it.

"Analogies are complex and often rely on a reader or listener using logic to figure out what connection the user of the analogy is making".

I wasn't referring to buying the whole product as you seem to imply, just investing in it. Which is what you are doing when you buy the season card, whether you like it or not. It's a gamble, it might be worth it with a good season or it might not with a shyte season, like has just happened. The money raised by the sale of season cards is used just the same as that raised from a shares issue, it goes to running that business. Buying a season card guarantees nothing, other than being allowed to attend games (if they're played) and in a specific seat.  The similarities are numerous except, you get a card instead of a share certificate. And that share certificate especially in football is only ever likely to decrease in value. With the SC it decreases in value until worthless, like the shares bought in BCFC 1982.

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33 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

A very good analogy. You could easily buy a yearly cinema pass and then not particularly want to watch any of the films on offer (although you would have an idea of what is due for release and base your decision on that). We buy a season ticket for our club and are taking a gamble on whether the game v say, Forest will be a great one or a turkey.

The main thing is though that we are never, ever going to take our money elsewhere to a competitor because we`re not happy with the product - we`ll either carry on regardless or pack it in.

Nobody is suggesting that we take our money elsewhere, I'm just posing the question that with our current scenario, as I've listed, would you or anyone else consider packing it in, or delaying your purchase until it looked like a more positive future. We're currently being asked to invest (buy Season Cards) in something that is very grey at the moment.

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9 minutes ago, Rich said:

The analogy is investing your hard earned (or not) cash in a product, not knowing what you're going to get in return. It could be worth it, or not worth it.

"Analogies are complex and often rely on a reader or listener using logic to figure out what connection the user of the analogy is making".

I wasn't referring to buying the whole product as you seem to imply, just investing in it. Which is what you are doing when you buy the season card, whether you like it or not. It's a gamble, it might be worth it with a good season or it might not with a shyte season, like has just happened. The money raised by the sale of season cards is used just the same as that raised from a shares issue, it goes to running that business. Buying a season card guarantees nothing, other than being allowed to attend games (if they're played) and in a specific seat.  The similarities are numerous except, you get a card instead of a share certificate. And that share certificate especially in football is only ever likely to decrease in value. With the SC it decreases in value until worthless, like the shares bought in BCFC 1982.

You're making the assumption that "worth it" is entirely contingent on league position though. I enjoy going to see family/friends, have a few drinks, post crap on here... and even in the crap relegation seasons I'd still say my ticket was worth it.

When you buy shares you're basically buying them not because you love the company and want to support through thick and thin, but usually so you can make money.

Let's be honest, if we were buying City season tickets purely on what we knew we'd get in return we'd have all packed it in a long, long time ago.

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1 minute ago, IAmNick said:

You're making the assumption that "worth it" is entirely contingent on league position though. I enjoy going to see family/friends, have a few drinks, post crap on here... and even in the crap relegation seasons I'd still say my ticket was worth it.

When you buy shares you're basically buying them not because you love the company and want to support through thick and thin, but usually so you can make money.

Let's be honest, if we were buying City season tickets purely on what we knew we'd get in return we'd have all packed it in a long, long time ago.

No I'm not making that assumption. I'm asking if people think it's worth buying a season card now, when so much is up in the air.

I have obviously made the mistake of putting a different take on things, by comparing it to buying shares in the same product.

By mistake, I mean people cannot see the comparison between investing (buying shares) in a company where the future is uncertain and, buying a season card for BCFC where the future is uncertain.

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18 minutes ago, Rich said:

The analogy is investing your hard earned (or not) cash in a product, not knowing what you're going to get in return. It could be worth it, or not worth it.

"Analogies are complex and often rely on a reader or listener using logic to figure out what connection the user of the analogy is making".

I wasn't referring to buying the whole product as you seem to imply, just investing in it. Which is what you are doing when you buy the season card, whether you like it or not. It's a gamble, it might be worth it with a good season or it might not with a shyte season, like has just happened. The money raised by the sale of season cards is used just the same as that raised from a shares issue, it goes to running that business. Buying a season card guarantees nothing, other than being allowed to attend games (if they're played) and in a specific seat.  The similarities are numerous except, you get a card instead of a share certificate. And that share certificate especially in football is only ever likely to decrease in value. With the SC it decreases in value until worthless, like the shares bought in BCFC 1982.

A season card isn't an investment its a consumable, you buy an investment with the expectation of some benefit/return in the future.

You know exactly what your going to get when you buy a season ticket - you get access to Ashton Gate for 23 games (usually) and priority access to cup games. It's always worth it because you know what you are getting. 

Funds aren't spent the same way, if share issues are used to pay OpEx costs I will be very surprised.

Season Cards are also illiquid whereas a share certificate will be very easy to sell. 

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22 minutes ago, Rich said:

No I'm not making that assumption. I'm asking if people think it's worth buying a season card now, when so much is up in the air.

I have obviously made the mistake of putting a different take on things, by comparing it to buying shares in the same product.

By mistake, I mean people cannot see the comparison between investing (buying shares) in a company where the future is uncertain and, buying a season card for BCFC where the future is uncertain.

No I get that - what I'm saying is I will "invest" regardless because of the stuff which is certain. The pints, the friends/family, and so on.

The uncertainty around the league position and how we play is an added bonus for me, but it's not the reason I'm "investing" in the first place. That's in contrast to something I have no emotional attachment to and am entirely dependant on the outcome for my happiness - such as purchasing a share.

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Just now, IAmNick said:

No I get that - what I'm saying is I will "invest" regardless because of the stuff which is certain. The pints, the friends/family, and so on.

The uncertainty around the league position and how we play is an added bonus for me, but it's not the reason I'm "investing" in the first place. That's in contrast to something I have no emotional attachment to and am entirely dependant on the outcome for my happiness - such as purchasing a share.

My investment is likely to be similar to yours, I enjoy the day out. I'm trying to find out how others that might not be so emotionally involved are planning. I'm sure the club are anxious to find that out as well.

 

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Funnily enough, a friend around the time I was renewing my season card last year said, why bother buying that if there’s a pandemic upon us, put the money in Bitcoin instead.

I told him not to be daft and that it’d all be over by early summer. If I had my £525, of which I’m about to receive the last bit back this week without seeing a single game, would be worth around £5k now

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21 minutes ago, Pezo said:

A season card isn't an investment its a consumable, you buy an investment with the expectation of some benefit/return in the future.

You know exactly what your going to get when you buy a season ticket - you get access to Ashton Gate for 23 games (usually) and priority access to cup games. It's always worth it because you know what you are getting. 

Funds aren't spent the same way, if share issues are used to pay OpEx costs I will be very surprised.

Season Cards are also illiquid whereas a share certificate will be very easy to sell. 

Not sure you're getting what I'm saying, especially when you say you know what you're getting with a season card, consumable? You also buy a season card with, to use your words, "expectation of some benefit/return in the future".  We never know what we're getting really, but, with  a change in structure right from the top, through to the playing staff and administrative changes, it's even less of a clear picture of what we'll be getting at this present moment.

I don't want to invest in a season card, if we're likely to have a rookie manager and a smaller, lower quality squad. If we had a seasoned manager and a commitment to improve our squad, using the knowledge of that manager. I'd certainly be a lot happier, as I'm sure many thousands of others would be, to invest in those season cards. Then sit back and enjoy the journey, rather than go along regardless and enjoy everything else bar the football, which has been the case for quite a few seasons now. 

4 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

Funnily enough, a friend around the time I was renewing my season card last year said, why bother buying that if there’s a pandemic upon us, put the money in Bitcoin instead.

I told him not to be daft and that it’d all be over by early summer. If I had my £525, of which I’m about to receive the last bit back this week without seeing a single game, would be worth around £5k now

Hindsight Ralph.

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14 minutes ago, Rich said:

Not sure you're getting what I'm saying, especially when you say you know what you're getting with a season card, consumable? You also buy a season card with, to use your words, "expectation of some benefit/return in the future".  We never know what we're getting really, but, with  a change in structure right from the top, through to the playing staff and administrative changes, it's even less of a clear picture of what we'll be getting at this present moment.

I don't want to invest in a season card, if we're likely to have a rookie manager and a smaller, lower quality squad. If we had a seasoned manager and a commitment to improve our squad, using the knowledge of that manager. I'd certainly be a lot happier, as I'm sure many thousands of others would be, to invest in those season cards. Then sit back and enjoy the journey, rather than go along regardless and enjoy everything else bar the football, which has been the case for quite a few seasons now. 

Hindsight Ralph.

I think we have fundamental differences, you say invest - I say purchase, you seem to worry about if the quality of football - I pay to watch Bristol City at any quality - as a friend said to me earlier today "If I know anything about being a football fan and enjoying the experience, it’s that the actual quality of football being played isn’t the secret ingredient". 

If you want quality football then I would suggest (with a heavy heart) becoming a plastic fan and following probably Liverpool last season and Man City this season.

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44 minutes ago, Rich said:

Nobody is suggesting that we take our money elsewhere, I'm just posing the question that with our current scenario, as I've listed, would you or anyone else consider packing it in, or delaying your purchase until it looked like a more positive future. We're currently being asked to invest (buy Season Cards) in something that is very grey at the moment.

I fit this scenario at this time. For football reasons, I'm considering whether to renew or not because with three years of complete dross and minimal entertainment, it's not an attractive proposition. I also feel that our club is not ours anymore. Those who run it, in the main, seem to treat us as if we'll keep coming back whatever happens. 

The employment of Nigel Pearson or another with similar experience and achievement, may well encourage me to renew. 

Now add to the above the other influences on renewing or not.

I am approaching 78 years, relatively fit and healthy, except for a non cancerous prostate problem. I've had an the two vaccines against Covid. Never thought I would stop going until I died, but I don't miss a six hour spell of travelling to and from Ashton Gate to watch dross. So at this moment, I don't have a clue whether I will renew or not.

The same applies to my Bears ST except that this is one of the best teams in my lifetime with an amazing tenacity, skill and never say never attitude. Part of Bristol Sport but I consider those who manage and play for it do really care about the fans. So I suspect I will renew.

 

 

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I don’t know why there is such an argument over your analogy Rich. I perfectly well understand what you mean. 
I commented similar on the season card thread last week. There is an uncertainty over what next season brings more than there ever has been in the past. 
No manager, no ceo, an owner wanting to sell, a chairman wanting to live 5,000 miles away, half the team likely not returning, no idea if we’ll even be allowed in, and if so in what numbers and under what restrictions. 
It doesn’t make for a very attractive way of spending £500. 
I’m sure most current sc holders will renew, but I for one am going to be leaving it as late as possible, and even then, I may make a late call to not bother. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry said:

I don’t know why there is such an argument over your analogy Rich. I perfectly well understand what you mean. 
I commented similar on the season card thread last week. There is an uncertainty over what next season brings more than there ever has been in the past. 
No manager, no ceo, an owner wanting to sell, a chairman wanting to live 5,000 miles away, half the team likely not returning, no idea if we’ll even be allowed in, and if so in what numbers and under what restrictions. 
It doesn’t make for a very attractive way of spending £500. 
I’m sure most current sc holders will renew, but I for one am going to be leaving it as late as possible, and even then, I may make a late call to not bother. 

With all the uncertainty I am leaving it for a bit to see what is announced, I will likely renew anyway but wanted to hold out in a token gesture. 

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4 minutes ago, Pezo said:

With all the uncertainty I am leaving it for a bit to see what is announced, I will likely renew anyway but wanted to hold out in a token gesture. 

Yep. I think that’s what quite a lot of people are doing - certainly lots that I know. 
I’m in that boat too, although my mind actually changes on a daily basis at the moment as to whether I will or won’t. 

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11 minutes ago, Pezo said:

I think we have fundamental differences, you say invest - I say purchase, you seem to worry about if the quality of football - I pay to watch Bristol City at any quality - as a friend said to me earlier today "If I know anything about being a football fan and enjoying the experience, it’s that the actual quality of football being played isn’t the secret ingredient". 

If you want quality football then I would suggest (with a heavy heart) becoming a plastic fan and following probably Liverpool last season and Man City this season.

Using different terminology for obtaining a season card is hardly a fundamental difference, after all, this seasons purchase of my season card has been a poor investment. We all know the meaning of an investment to produce a gain/profit, there are also other investments such as :an act of devoting time, effort, or energy to a particular undertaking with the expectation of a worthwhile result. Like supporting your team.

When I said I don't think you're getting what I'm saying, what I should have said is, you haven't a clue what I'm saying. And your last jibe about becoming a plastic is typical of someone that follows blindly without daring to question what is on offer. Do me a favour and keep that trashy comment to yourself in the future.

I want the same commitment from my club that I've invested in for fifty five years. My commitment won't change and I've never said or indicated that it would. I've questioned what commitment the club are willing to come up with, baring in mind that at the time of season cards going up for sale, with a limited timeframe to purchase them, that there probably hasn't been a period when the future has been so unclear, apart from 1982. Will that lack of clarity pursuade others to invest their hard earned cash, into a season card, which might give them hope of something better than we've been served up of late. 

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21 minutes ago, Pezo said:

With all the uncertainty I am leaving it for a bit to see what is announced, I will likely renew anyway but wanted to hold out in a token gesture. 

Exactly what I've been asking.

 

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7 hours ago, Rich said:

Exactly what I've been asking.

Yeah I get what your trying to say now it's just that analogy and terminology threw me a bit. 

To give an analogy it sounded to me like you were comparing buying a year pass to a cinema or buying shares in the cinema, and you were trying to figure out which or if either would be a worthwhile investment, my point was that it's difficult to compare the 2, both appeal to different people wanting different things. The cinema year pass isn't an investment, it's like when people say a house is an investment - we'll unless your renting it out it's actually a liability - your not getting anything from it except maintenance costs.

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9 hours ago, Rich said:

Exactly what I've been asking.

 

Not really. Your analogy with a company is a false one. People don’t normally invest in companies to be altruistic, they invest to make a profit.  There is usually no real connection between the investor and the company. You don’t support a football club to make money, you give them your money because you see a connection. (Perhaps that is something the ‘Big 6’ would do well to remember )

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I first started buying a season ticket, when the stadium became all seated. Before that I would buy a ticket for the enclosure and would be able to stand in (roughly) the same place with the same people.

I don't buy a season ticket with the expectation of watching a good game - although, occasionally it does happen ?

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2 hours ago, BCFCinNW6 said:

Put simply, I think you're conflating business with pleasure. 

I was creating a hypothetical situation in regards to the company. If you read the scenario, it's exactly the same as BCFC, which is a company. Then merely asking if it was an attractive proposition, of course, the two examples are different in their structure.  

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11 hours ago, E.G.Red said:

Not really. Your analogy with a company is a false one. People don’t normally invest in companies to be altruistic, they invest to make a profit.  There is usually no real connection between the investor and the company. You don’t support a football club to make money, you give them your money because you see a connection. (Perhaps that is something the ‘Big 6’ would do well to remember )

Sorry, I disagree. Investments are not only about making a profit, they come in all different guises. In terms of buying shares in a company, you are correct, that's usually done to make a profit. You can invest time and energy into helping, creating, or improving something, whether that be by connection such as a social group, or a physical way say by providing your labour to help a relative. By purchasing a season card, I think you are  helping to give stability to that club by paying up front, therefore allowing that club to plan for the future, isn't that the reason they want to sell season cards. As such I feel you are investing in the future of the club, even though after a certain time your investment becomes worthless and the cycle begins again. By investing in the future you hope that you will see the benefits during that period and that's where the enjoyment comes in, hopefully.

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