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Lansbury Red Overturned


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6 minutes ago, grifty said:

Referees mistakes are 'generally' fine if they explain after the game what they saw.

e.g. My initial reaction was it hit the bar, however my linesman was certain that the player used his hand and on his advice I awarded the penalty.

You can't argue with that and I think 95% of fans would say fair enough.

 

What I didn't like in the videos and watching it live is you could see the ref wasn't sure, started towards pointing towards a corner and then 5/6 Sheff Wed players run up in his face waving their arms and pointing at Lansbury, then the ref points to the spot.

Now it's been proved he didn't touch his hand, all those players are effectively 'cheating' and should be fined/banned for a match.

I'd agree in some circumstances and not this one. If a player goes down in the box, the defender gets sent off and the attacker, who knows he has dived pushes for the red then yes, that is cheating. 

But here? Not at all. The players will have seen the ball loop down, Lansbury's hand go up and the ball bounce upwards in time with it. By the same reasoning that the penalty should not have been given as the ref could not have been sure what he saw, the players certainly would not have known from that it did not touch his hand. They probably would have thought it had done and they certainly aren't cheating by asking for a penalty.

I still rankles with me that Warnock and Jordan laid into our players after the 'ghost goal' when a lot of those players will have seen the ball come back from the goal at speed and not have an angle to be sure it went in or not. I don't players surrounding the ref and demanding decisions and I agree it should be stamped out but the ref made the mistake by giving the penalty sending off Lansbury when he wasn't sure. The Wednesday players did not cheat and it isn't a fair accusation. 

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1 minute ago, Red DNA said:

Not really, like everyone else they’re humans capable of misjudging it in the split second they have to decide.
 Half of them probably never actually saw it and were influenced by their teammates. 
Decisions like these are tough to take but it averages out over a season - hopefully. 

I think it's more the point players shouldn't be allowed to all rush up on the ref shouting in his face influencing his decisions.

Until there are retrospective actions taken against players who verbally abuse refs, dive, etc it will keep getting worse as they are getting away with.

I get there is some gamesmanship in football, but some of pathetic attempts to win free kicks that either work (normally against us) or look stupid (any number of Nakhi's collapses) turns the game into a joke.

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So this means Lansbury will be available for Wycombe game?................" just when I thought i was out, they pull me back in"................HL is the Godfather?   I wish I could make him an offer he couldn't refuse?........?                      ?

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4 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'd agree in some circumstances and not this one. If a player goes down in the box, the defender gets sent off and the attacker, who knows he has dived pushes for the red then yes, that is cheating. 

But here? Not at all. The players will have seen the ball loop down, Lansbury's hand go up and the ball bounce upwards in time with it. By the same reasoning that the penalty should not have been given as the ref could not have been sure what he saw, the players certainly would not have known from that it did not touch his hand. They probably would have thought it had done and they certainly aren't cheating by asking for a penalty.

I still rankles with me that Warnock and Jordan laid into our players after the 'ghost goal' when a lot of those players will have seen the ball come back from the goal at speed and not have an angle to be sure it went in or not. I don't players surrounding the ref and demanding decisions and I agree it should be stamped out but the ref made the mistake by giving the penalty sending off Lansbury when he wasn't sure. The Wednesday players did not cheat and it isn't a fair accusation. 

I'll have to disagree as I think it's a fair 'accusation'.

This was a split second after it hit the crossbar.

1735517728_Screenshot2021-04-20at12_03_10.thumb.png.4e0ea590d3322570042b14dac54803de.png

There are 4 Sheff Wed players closer than the ref. Patterson WOULD have heard it hit bar and sprinted towards the ref. The guy bottom left sprinted towards the ref. The other two sort of stuff still and then reacted based off the other two.

The chump on the right has run from the halfway line to get involved. It's the below scene that needs to be removed from the game.

1001607995_Screenshot2021-04-20at12_06_56.thumb.png.7b15d889c841dfe95256e74431d8acf1.png

Ive played a lot of football in my life and you know when somethings hit the bar, come of you last, is a foul, so these players 100% new it wasn't a penalty but are lying/cheating to get it.

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29 minutes ago, grifty said:

I think it's more the point players shouldn't be allowed to all rush up on the ref shouting in his face influencing his decisions.

Until there are retrospective actions taken against players who verbally abuse refs, dive, etc it will keep getting worse as they are getting away with.

I get there is some gamesmanship in football, but some of pathetic attempts to win free kicks that either work (normally against us) or look stupid (any number of Nakhi's collapses) turns the game into a joke.

Wasn't something put in place a few years ago, and things like this clamped down on for a short while? 

As with everything like that, it's acted upon  for a short while and then gradually creeps back in. 

It needs stamping out of the game completely, and the reason it happens so much, is that once one team sees that it works, team 2 tries it, then team 3, team 4 get more players involved and try it, and so it goes on.

Hate Rugby, but the officials have so much more respect from the players.

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24 minutes ago, Taz said:

Wasn't something put in place a few years ago, and things like this clamped down on for a short while? 

As with everything like that, it's acted upon  for a short while and then gradually creeps back in. 

It needs stamping out of the game completely, and the reason it happens so much, is that once one team sees that it works, team 2 tries it, then team 3, team 4 get more players involved and try it, and so it goes on.

Hate Rugby, but the officials have so much more respect from the players.

Could not agree more.

The other pet hates for me are kicking the ball away (or deliberately stopping it getting back to the player who is taking the free kick) & standing in the way to stop a team trying to take it quickly. If they were penalised Daniel Johnson at Preston would be sent off in every game.

Both these offences seem to be completely ignored since we came back last June.

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49 minutes ago, grifty said:

I'll have to disagree as I think it's a fair 'accusation'.

This was a split second after it hit the crossbar.

1735517728_Screenshot2021-04-20at12_03_10.thumb.png.4e0ea590d3322570042b14dac54803de.png

There are 4 Sheff Wed players closer than the ref. Patterson WOULD have heard it hit bar and sprinted towards the ref. The guy bottom left sprinted towards the ref. The other two sort of stuff still and then reacted based off the other two.

The chump on the right has run from the halfway line to get involved. It's the below scene that needs to be removed from the game.

1001607995_Screenshot2021-04-20at12_06_56.thumb.png.7b15d889c841dfe95256e74431d8acf1.png

Ive played a lot of football in my life and you know when somethings hit the bar, come of you last, is a foul, so these players 100% new it wasn't a penalty but are lying/cheating to get it.

Right or wrong... if we were fighting relation in the bottom three of the table, wouldn't we all hope our players to be doing the same i.e. questioning the ref to award a penalty that would lead to a definite red card?

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2 minutes ago, Laner said:

Right or wrong... if we were fighting relation in the bottom three of the table, wouldn't we all hope our players to be doing the same i.e. questioning the ref to award a penalty that would lead to a definite red card?

Nope, I'd be more annoyed that Patterson missed his shot rather than trying to rely on conning the referee into giving a penalty that shouldn't have been and a red card that has since been rescinded.

That's the exact attitude that means diving, arguing with the ref, etc will not go from the game.

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I remember a few seasons ago when the club received 3 or 4 "apology" letters from the FA or ref's association. Trouble was, no result was reversed/nullified and certainly no consolation points awarded*. Can referees be charged with bringing the game into disrepute - it might make them a bit more consistent.

*Trouble with this one would be if some of the "big" clubs thought that they should have been awarded 5 penalties rather than the 3 that they "won!"

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15 minutes ago, Midred said:

I remember a few seasons ago when the club received 3 or 4 "apology" letters from the FA or ref's association. Trouble was, no result was reversed/nullified and certainly no consolation points awarded*. Can referees be charged with bringing the game into disrepute - it might make them a bit more consistent.

*Trouble with this one would be if some of the "big" clubs thought that they should have been awarded 5 penalties rather than the 3 that they "won!"

I don't think charging the referees is the right answer. The problem is, as fans we are not told why they gave the decision so are left to speculate which spirals into "all refs are rubbish".

If the ref is interviewed after the game and asked why he gave X decision, we would see it from his POV and understand it.

If he said "As the ball bounced up towards the bar I saw Lansburys hand in the same area, however from my perspective it hit the bar, however my assistant referee from a different angle confirmed from his POV it 100% was cleared off the line by a hand so it is a penalty & red card for denying a goal-bound shot".

Knowing the refs only get 1 view in the championship, can you argue against it?

The appeal process was there to review various replays and different speeds and angles and it has been determined it wasn't a penalty and red card. Doesn't help us with the match that occurred though. The linesman (not the ref) should then go through a training/review process with the trainers of the refs as to how to improve, whether its being in a better position.

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It is all wrong and needs to be changed.

Imagine the scenario; the ref gives the penalty and Bannen scores. With ten players we inevitably end up losing 2:1. Who's to say we wouldn't have won that match with 11 players. 

Retrospectively the sending off is overturned and we have the player available for the next match instead of serving a ban.

At the end of the season those extra two points Wednesday gain from the "penalty that never was" mean that Derby are relegated instead. After already proving {& the EFL rescinding the sending off thus admitting the official was wrong in the first place] that the penalty should never have been given, I would think Derby would have a real case to avoid relegation.

All of the matches are already being covered by TV so it would be relatively easy for a fourth official to view an important incident on the spot much in the same way as a TMO does in Rugby rather than rely on an electronic VAR which still throws the onus back onto the referee. With VAR we get the ludicrous situations where your big toe could actually make you offside and the officials hide behind the technology instead of using it as a tool to help make the common sense correct decision as in your foot is in line therefore you're onside irrespective of where your big toe is.

This, and the tiresome running to the referee "colin" like to help influence a decision or standing in front of a free kick, kicking the ball away or gaining metres taking throw ins and general time wasting, its all forms of dissent and the football authorities need to act on this and gain respect as its ruining the game. I also think referees should be "miked up" to explain decisions again much in the same way as rugby. 

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2 hours ago, grifty said:

I'll have to disagree as I think it's a fair 'accusation'.

This was a split second after it hit the crossbar.

1735517728_Screenshot2021-04-20at12_03_10.thumb.png.4e0ea590d3322570042b14dac54803de.png

There are 4 Sheff Wed players closer than the ref. Patterson WOULD have heard it hit bar and sprinted towards the ref. The guy bottom left sprinted towards the ref. The other two sort of stuff still and then reacted based off the other two.

The chump on the right has run from the halfway line to get involved. It's the below scene that needs to be removed from the game.

1001607995_Screenshot2021-04-20at12_06_56.thumb.png.7b15d889c841dfe95256e74431d8acf1.png

Ive played a lot of football in my life and you know when somethings hit the bar, come of you last, is a foul, so these players 100% new it wasn't a penalty but are lying/cheating to get it.

 

The thought was that he touched it and it hit the bar, not that it didn't hit the bar.

TBF to those players, Lansbury's fingers were a couple of inches away from doing that. In real time it could easily have looked like the ball brushed his hand which directed it on to the bar. It wasn't until I saw a still of the incident that what went on was clear.

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I have to hold my hand up (ahem - sorry!) and admit that when I saw the replay in real-time I thought he tipped it over the bar - quite a good save actually ?

Seriously, the ref got it wrong - players get something wrong many times in the game. The ref is human and made a mistake - the same mistake I would have made if I had the whistle in that game. 

Glad it's been rescinded. 

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45 minutes ago, Swede said:

It is all wrong and needs to be changed.

Imagine the scenario; the ref gives the penalty and Bannen scores. With ten players we inevitably end up losing 2:1. Who's to say we wouldn't have won that match with 11 players. 

Retrospectively the sending off is overturned and we have the player available for the next match instead of serving a ban.

At the end of the season those extra two points Wednesday gain from the "penalty that never was" mean that Derby are relegated instead. After already proving {& the EFL rescinding the sending off thus admitting the official was wrong in the first place] that the penalty should never have been given, I would think Derby would have a real case to avoid relegation (1).

All of the matches are already being covered by TV so it would be relatively easy for a fourth official to view an important incident on the spot much in the same way as a TMO does in Rugby rather than rely on an electronic VAR which still throws the onus back onto the referee. With VAR we get the ludicrous situations where your big toe could actually make you offside and the officials hide behind the technology instead of using it as a tool to help make the common sense correct decision (2) as in your foot is in line therefore you're onside irrespective of where your big toe is.

This, and the tiresome running to the referee "colin" like to help influence a decision or standing in front of a free kick, kicking the ball away or gaining metres taking throw ins and general time wasting, its all forms of dissent and the football authorities need to act on this and gain respect as its ruining the game. I also think referees should be "miked up" to explain decisions again much in the same way as rugby. 

Thanks for a good post, and I agree with a lot of your points.

Two comments of my own, however. 

1. Re. Derby, they may well feel aggrieved, but surely no case for an appeal - think the disallowed Sheffield United goal against Villa last season, which would have seen Villa relegated!

2. I agree entirely. Referring again to the disallowed Sheffield United goal against Villa, I was seething when, in response to the vehement appeals from Sheffield United players that the ball had crossed the line, I saw Michael Oliver pointing to his watch as if to say, 'Well, Yes, obviously I could see the ball crossed the line, but my watch didn't buzz so I can't award the goal'. Why on earth didn't he just say something along the lines 'There appears to have been something strange here; I think I'll have a look at the pitchside monitor'.   

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4 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

I didn't, I only saw the highlights after and my reaction, with knowledge of what happened, but also of the number of people saying it was a scandalous decision, was that HL was bloody stupid giving the ref a decision to make.  And the referee really didn't have the same view as live tv.  Things look very different at pitch level than they do in the stand.

Maybe they did though.  It just so happened that their immediate first reaction was that it was a penalty.

As the ground was empty, the referee should have heard the ball hitting the bar, the trajectory the ball took also showed it didn't hit his hand.

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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Could not agree more.

The other pet hates for me are kicking the ball away (or deliberately stopping it getting back to the player who is taking the free kick) & standing in the way to stop a team trying to take it quickly. If they were penalised Daniel Johnson at Preston would be sent off in every game.

Both these offences seem to be completely ignored since we came back last June.

Think it was Palmer for Wednesday who did that too, wouldn't give Janneh the ball, pushed him away, then carried the ball with him and threw it further.

Arguably 2 separate cases for a booking there (although sending him off would have seemed extreme also)

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1 minute ago, pongo88 said:

Let’s replay the season starting immediately after the 4th match 

No thanks haha! A season of watching from home where it doesn't feel real has been a let down to say the least. Hopefully back to normal August as interest levels so low watching soulless games on bcfc tv.

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2 hours ago, grifty said:

Nope, I'd be more annoyed that Patterson missed his shot rather than trying to rely on conning the referee into giving a penalty that shouldn't have been and a red card that has since been rescinded.

That's the exact attitude that means diving, arguing with the ref, etc will not go from the game.

Saying 'ref that's a penalty, he hand balled it' is completely different to a player diving to actually try to con a decision.

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2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Think it was Palmer for Wednesday who did that too, wouldn't give Janneh the ball, pushed him away, then carried the ball with him and threw it further.

Arguably 2 separate cases for a booking there (although sending him off would have seemed extreme also)

What annoyed me more was that debutant Saikou Janneh showed passion to moan / make a fuss about it, when most of our players just accept ref decisions.  Hutchinson got booked early, I would’ve had him playing on the edge, even niggly late challenges.  That’s where we are soft (soft in other ways too).

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What annoyed me more was that debutant Saikou Janneh showed passion to moan / make a fuss about it, when most of our players just accept ref decisions.  Hutchinson got booked early, I would’ve had him playing on the edge, even niggly late challenges.  That’s where we are soft (soft in other ways too).

Thought that early in the season when Semenyo got clattered in front of the dug outs . Not one of his team mates reacted. Piss poor & just a small indication of the passive nature of the squad 

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58 minutes ago, grifty said:

In what way?

The players are responding to a situation that's already happened, as oppose to creating the incident themselves e.g. a dive.

You say you've played a lot of football. Have you never raised your arm to 'claim' a throw-in or corner/goal kick?Isn't that trying to con the ref too?

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