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Time for a re-think


Ivorguy
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1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

5000 fans each investing £6000 or 2500 investing £12000 each.  That way we would really have a stake in the club!

Your having a larf. Although the concept sounds great where are you going to get 5,000 fans to contribute £6k? If anyone has a spare £6k under their mattress, putting money into an average football club is a high risk investment as most clubs lose money. There would be little chance of any financial return on the investment and, more importantly for fans who want to be involved with the club, the investors would have no influence as the sum raised would only be £30m. To have influence the fans, who invested via any of the schemes suggested in this thread, would need to own more than 50% of the club. Thirty million pounds is nowhere near 50% of what SL has put into the club. 
 

The German model is great but the problem for City and and most English clubs is how do you transition from the current set up to the German model? The transition would be relatively easy for some lower league / non league team who are broke and the owners have not put much money into the club - eg Exeter. For clubs such as City, where the owner has made a big investment, the supporters would be unable to raise sufficient money to buy 50% as the owner isn’t going to give away shares. 
 

There is also a fundamental problem that most people seem to overlook. Why would most owners sell 51% of their shares as it would leave their money stuck in the club but they would have absolutely no control? 

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2 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

It would have to be a question of buying and selling shares.  SL would have to decide at the outset if the infrastructure was to be included.  There would have to be a launch document that outlined how profits could be made.  Many on here would struggle with the concept!

Isn't the fundamental problem football clubs are high risk and not that profitable and that owners - such as SL - usually end up pumping more and more of their own cash in to keep it afloat? And isn't that where share issues for clubs have struggled in the past and why clubs move away from that model. 

This entire ESL idea has come about because wealthy people at the wealthiest clubs in the world - Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United, Liverpool etc. - cannot make a profit and we're looking for investment because one of the wealthiest men in England still does not have enough money to run a Championship football club. It just isn't a profit making industry. Ultimately unless and until clubs move to a sustainable business model where they only spend what they have, outside investment from billionaires will carry on being needed.

If I was putting £6k into the football club, I'd  only be doing that if I'd decided I loved the club and wanted to help and that I did not need that £6k and could manage if I never saw it again. And, even then, I'd still probably donate that £6k to somewhere it would make a difference, rather than somewhere it paid a week of a youth player's salary. 

If I was looking to actually invest and get a return, football is second only to an independent label in terms of places I'd avoid like the plague.

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How exactly would 50+1 work in this country. Do people expect owners that have invested 10's of millions into buying and keeping afloat clubs want to be pushed aside by a group of supporters putting a few grand each in. Nearly every club in this country is in debt. Who takes on that debt, the majority shareholders (the fans) ?

As someone said earlier the only way this could work would be with a phoenix club, otherwise it's just pie in the sky.

Wage caps, 10% of all transfer fees per window put into a pot and distributed evenly between 92 clubs (or subtracted from Season ticket sales in all four divisions), redistribution of tv money, parachute payments to stop or be distributed between every club in the bottom 3 divisions etc

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6 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Isn't the fundamental problem football clubs are high risk and not that profitable and that owners - such as SL - usually end up pumping more and more of their own cash in to keep it afloat? And isn't that where share issues for clubs have struggled in the past and why clubs move away from that model. 

This entire ESL idea has come about because wealthy people at the wealthiest clubs in the world - Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United, Liverpool etc. - cannot make a profit and we're looking for investment because one of the wealthiest men in England still does not have enough money to run a Championship football club. It just isn't a profit making industry. Ultimately unless and until clubs move to a sustainable business model where they only spend what they have, outside investment from billionaires will carry on being needed.

If I was putting £6k into the football club, I'd  only be doing that if I'd decided I loved the club and wanted to help and that I did not need that £6k and could manage if I never saw it again. And, even then, I'd still probably donate that £6k to somewhere it would make a difference, rather than somewhere it paid a week of a youth player's salary. 

If I was looking to actually invest and get a return, football is second only to an independent label in terms of places I'd avoid like the plague.

Yep! The whole thing is a can of worms and I find it hard to see how it could be a sensible business because there are too many uncontrollable variables.  Lets hope another rich, dedicated sugar daddy comes along - at least that would give the fans on here a focus for their bile.

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53 minutes ago, red panda said:

The post below addresses the second part of your question better than I could.  As to the first, haven't you noticed how many millions we (and almost every other EFL club) LOSE each year?  I really really don't get the hate for someone that has ploughed many many millions of his own money into our club (supporting annual losses as well as investing in hugely upgraded infrastructure).

But I realise this won't convince you.  Just continue with your irrational hatred .... 

 

But it doesn’t. Explain how Lansdown is different from any of the other owners. Unless I’m missing something.

Ok so the fact that he’s Bristolian (I guess) and he’s not from the “murky” Orient, or “murky” US or “murky” Russia - or any other murky ******* place might make him different. And I’m not for one minute saying he’s murky or has murky intentions - but he’s simply ploughing money in - yes, covering losses - his business, his business decisions, his losses .

Bit like chasing a debt. Keep betting Steve, you’ll eventually back a winner.......

Nothing irrational in at least my mind. But I don’t see how different Lansdown is to any other owner.

Many years ago when I was but a boy there was a larger than life, curly haired, cigar smoking, Mercedes driving man who ploughed money into what was then a Great Mills Western League side - who remembers Great Mills? WTF did they have to do with football? Where are they now? Anyway I digress......

What happened when the man with the money left? The teams he’d been associated with no longer enjoyed the same level of success. The players moved with him. 

Moral of that. It’s all about the money. Up and down the triangle. Money, money, money........

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4 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

5000 fans each investing £6000 or 2500 investing £12000 each.  That way we would really have a stake in the club!

Oh yes...and what happens when the club need further finance as they will ? Up until now every year or so uncle Steve dips in and finds a few more £m ....fans will soon loose heart having to fund a bottomless pit.

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1 hour ago, BigAl&Toby said:

But I don’t see how different Lansdown is to any other owner.

Primarily in the manner in which he is now seeking to find fresh investment.

Instead of simply marketing the club and selling to the highest Jordanian bidder he is trying to ensure that a responsible person with adequate funds comes in and, if they know what they are doing, is sold a majority stake.

James Brent did just the same at Plymouth in bringing in as an investor and then selling to Simon Hallett.

It shows that the future of the club is important to the family rather than their aim being to simply flog it to the highest bidder and hang the consequences as was best illustrated at Portsmouth.

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Thanks for all the interesting replies.

There are clearly a range of opinions

Yet what is clear to me is we need a new national model for our national sport; from The FA down it is in need of reform.  Failure to grasp the nettle will continue to alienate the young and the game at a professional level will either die as we oldies toddle off or it will continue with the current pandemic model, ie a tv only sport.  
 

Thanks again to all who took the trouble to contribute to the debate.

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2 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

Explain how Lansdown is different from any of the other owners.

He’s said he’ll never stake the financial security of the club against the chance of success, like Reading spending about 215% of their turnover on wages, the likes of Bournemouth and others who push FFP to the limit if not break it. Look at the owners who put their stadiums etc up for sale in an attempt to circumvent rules to get an advantage. He’s funded the development of Ashton Gate and the training ground rather than just sit on facilities as they are and not fund anything, he does back his managers/head coaches financially in transfers as well rather than looking to take money out of the club when it’s successful. 
 

Is Landown perfect? Probably not, however he is far, far better than some of the owners we see around and better in general than most. 

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2 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

But it doesn’t. Explain how Lansdown is different from any of the other owners. Unless I’m missing something.

Ok so the fact that he’s Bristolian (I guess) and he’s not from the “murky” Orient, or “murky” US or “murky” Russia - or any other murky ******* place might make him different. And I’m not for one minute saying he’s murky or has murky intentions - but he’s simply ploughing money in - yes, covering losses - his business, his business decisions, his losses .

Bit like chasing a debt. Keep betting Steve, you’ll eventually back a winner.......

Nothing irrational in at least my mind. But I don’t see how different Lansdown is to any other owner.

Many years ago when I was but a boy there was a larger than life, curly haired, cigar smoking, Mercedes driving man who ploughed money into what was then a Great Mills Western League side - who remembers Great Mills? WTF did they have to do with football? Where are they now? Anyway I digress......

What happened when the man with the money left? The teams he’d been associated with no longer enjoyed the same level of success. The players moved with him. 

Moral of that. It’s all about the money. Up and down the triangle. Money, money, money........

How’s this for “any other owner”, who just happens to be the owner of one of the clubs behind the ESL project.

The Glazers bought a debt free club 10 years or so ago. To purchase the club the Glazers borrowed over £1/2bn and then secured that debt against Man U’s assets. In the decade since, and while their near neighbour's owners have ploughed over £1bn into Man City during that time, Man U has paid out over £1bn in servicing the debt the Glazers created , the Glazers have not only invested nothing into Man U they have actually taken the best part of £1bn out of the club.

In what way is SL anything like them?

 

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5 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Just to correct this it was very much not a compusory order and they have not bought up all remaining shares; it was entirely people's personal choice whether or not they wanted to take up the offer.

It was a generous offer of the Lansdowns making good upon an earlier promise to repay shareholders at the price they paid for the shares when the actual valuation was about a thirrd to a quarter of that.

I had about two grand back I thought I wouldn't see again and was very grateful for that.

I'll go back and check my paperwork. But i'm sure it said "yes, we will pay you £10 per share. But if you don't take up the offer, your share will still be compulsory purchased by Pula sports, and the money will be donated to the club"

I think it read a bit fait accompli.

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14 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

I'll go back and check my paperwork. But i'm sure it said "yes, we will pay you £10 per share. But if you don't take up the offer, your share will still be compulsory purchased by Pula sports, and the money will be donated to the club"

I think it read a bit fait accompli.

That isn't my memory but a check back to the original will always answer the question.

I didn't keep my paperwork as there was no CGT implication for selling at the price that I bought.

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13 hours ago, ncnsbcfc said:

I had no issue with it. But the thing missing from this statement, if my memory serves; was that if you didn't take up the offer. Then your shares would revert to being worthless; and would be written off.

I don't think that is the case - I did not take up the offer and as far as I can tell I still own shares in the club.  The shares are not worthless. 

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One point that I think is being missed from this discussion is from our own point of view whether nothing changes or more strict controls are brought in across the game or even of all clubs follow the German ownership model our club’s place in the football hierarchy isn’t going to necessarily improve. In fact you could argue it could make getting to the promised land harder.

For all the praises of the German model. The same club pretty much wins the league every year.

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