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Was SOD about to turn it around?


Davefevs

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6 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Two points;

People say SOD was dour and had no ‘ personality ‘ which , to me , shows a lack of understanding or acceptance, perhaps he wasn’t ever the right ‘ fit ‘ for our ‘ supporters ‘.

SOD was the first head coach to treat us like adults and try to educate us, the fans, about football. 
 

He comes out of the debacle with more credit than the club for me. 
 

 

He was excruciatingly shy and hated media work. Met him a few times behind the scenes at Afcb. And he didn't suffer fools 

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51 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Two points;

People say SOD was dour and had no ‘ personality ‘ which , to me , shows a lack of understanding or acceptance, perhaps he wasn’t ever the right ‘ fit ‘ for our ‘ supporters ‘.

SOD was the first head coach to treat us like adults and try to educate us, the fans, about football. 
 

He comes out of the debacle with more credit than the club for me. 
 

 

He was not a charismatic interviewee but, if you got past that - or just read the quotes rather than listened to him saying them - I  actually found what he had to say really interesting at times. As you say, he actually tried to explain things rather than jump to cliches.

As to the OP, I’m not convinced SOD could have turned us around but I am convinced we would not have turned things around without the foundations he put in place.

I hate to say it but I fear that Pearson could find himself in the same situation. I think he is the right appointment and will put what we need in place to succeed but he has a lot of work to do, it will take time to turn things around and I would not be shocked if it was a future manager rather than him that ultimately reaped the rewards. 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, super slick said:

Honestly? No not at all. Football was terrible, the fact he had the personality of a slug that’s just had salt poured over him didn’t help his cause with the fans or board.

That slug helped bring in Pack, Flint, JET...

He inherited a woeful mess, that could be traced back to GJ's reign. Sure, we were terrible. But he was turning it round. But we never really gave him a chance.

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I remember those days well. I felt like the only person on here defending SoD...for all the reasons Harry pointed out.

He had a thankless task Imo.

Probably suited better to coaching than managing, as doesn't suffer fools gladly and speaks his mind.

His legacy will be seen by many as poor based on entertainment, results, demeanor etc.

But being made aware of what was happening behind the scenes, I saw it in a different light...hence my fociverous posts at the time.

For me he was given a job that was impossible on his own.

Blame should have been thrown more at the owners for putting him in such a position.

I felt for him re slagging off the fans...as he was obviously frustrated and the fans didn't realise the whole scenario.

When are fans accountable for their actions and views? 

It's something to ponder on...

 

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9 hours ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

Cotts rejuvenated that squad, and made us double winners. 

Cotterill basically inherited the squad that SOD built, added a few faces, off we went.

All the Cotts lovers on here, remember - he was NOT a popular appointment at the time. What short memories you all have.

Oh, and as for terrible football - the end of St Gary's reign wasn't pretty.

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2 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Cotterill basically inherited the squad that SOD built, added a few faces, off we went.

All the Cotts lovers on here, remember - he was NOT a popular appointment at the time. What short memories you all have.

Oh, and as for terrible football - the end of St Gary's reign wasn't pretty.

Neither was the beginning 

People have foggy memories about the playoff season. The football wasn't very good let's be honest 

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I think a key measure of a manager/leader is: "Did they leave the organisation in a better state than when they arrived?" 

For SOD, and the legacy of recruitment, the academy, etc - a resounding "Yes".

Other, much more revered managers? No.

As for those who castigate SOD's personality - Dean Holden was a nice guy...

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10 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Cotterill basically inherited the squad that SOD built, added a few faces, off we went.

Yup- but he added Ayling, Wilbrham, Little, Elliott, Smith, Agard and Freeman.... so it was Cotts “team” with some of SOD’s players- remember SOD dropped FF and killed Flints confidence  

Changed the system which resulted in us being exciting to watch  

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

Yup- but he added Ayling, Wilbrham, Little, Elliott, Smith, Agard and Freeman.... 

And they were sold on for how much profit? Whereas Pack, Flint...having been bought for next to nothing?

And Cotts had funds available. SOD had nothing (see others' insightful posts)

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18 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Cotterill basically inherited the squad that SOD built, added a few faces, off we went.

All the Cotts lovers on here, remember - he was NOT a popular appointment at the time. What short memories you all have.

Oh, and as for terrible football - the end of St Gary's reign wasn't pretty.

Added a few faces?

In one week we signed Ayling, Little, Wade Elliott, Korey, Freeman.

The next week we signed Wilbs, Cotterill then sold Baldock for £2m to pay for most of them & so signed Agard. That is 8 players all integral to our success.

You try & make it seem like he brought in 2 players into a team that was flying, when he took over we were bottom 4 in League One.

I recall being one of very few who was pleased he was appointed, but didn’t have to worry, plenty joined that bandwagon in time..

Your GJ comments are incredible, by that time he had been in charge nearly 5 years & it was going stale, his worst placed finish in The Championship? 10th, we even finished 14th under Millen the season he went.

We have bettered this once in all the seasons since.

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Pearson has more of a blank canvas to structure the club now than SOD did at the time. As others have said, SOD had his wings severely clipped during his time here but without doubt he built the foundations for future success. The way the club is now, with no infrastructure in place from the manager to the owner, in theory Pearson should be able to put his stamp on the club.  

Going back to SOD, I always remember Doncaster coming down towards the end of GJ's tenure. They beat us 5-2 and played some of the best football I've seen from a visiting team at the Gate. JET was at the heart of it. That was the standard I aspired to see from City when SOD joined. Even though performances were pretty dire, recruitment was spot on. He might have turned it around but I think we'd have gone down to L2 first. 

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9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks for all the replies.

Got to say, Sheffield Utd (h) 0-1 was the worst match I’ve ever seen at AG.  Both sides were trying to be shitter than the other, topped off by a Flint og....and seeing Maguire for the first time, and starting to see why there might be a bit of fuss about him.

This was also pre-OTIB for me.....I may have re-opened some scars.  Sorry ???

That Sheffield United game  set the gold standard for dreadful football ,I don't think we entered their penalty area until the last 5 minutes.

As a football fan one accepts losing but to lose in such a negative and boring manner is unforgiveable.

To give those who did not attend some idea how bad it was it made England v Algeria look like a classic 

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1 hour ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

 

 

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Added a few faces?

In one week we signed Ayling, Little, Wade Elliott, Korey, Freeman.

The next week we signed Wilbs, Cotterill then sold Baldock for £2m to pay for most of them & so signed Agard. That is 8 players all integral to our success.

You try & make it seem like he brought in 2 players into a team that was flying, when he took over we were bottom 4 in League One.

I recall being one of very few who was pleased he was appointed, but didn’t have to worry, plenty joined that bandwagon in time..

Your GJ comments are incredible, by that time he had been in charge nearly 5 years & it was going stale, his worst placed finish in The Championship? 10th, we even finished 14th under Millen the season he went.

We have bettered this once in all the seasons since.

Yes, I think Secret Sam was a tad underplaying the additional faces brought in. 
Half the promotion team were brought in by Sean, then Cotts added more vital pieces. So credit to Cotterill too without doubt. 
However, there was one constant, who was brought here by Sean. Keith Burt. 
All 3 of them played their part in putting that team together. 
As I said elsewhere, I can completely and absolutely understand why Sean is looked on unfavourably by a large majority. But believe me, there was a total total mess and he had no backing, in both a financial sense but also in having any support whatsoever from the owner. The term “hung out to dry” was never more profound than what Sean faced. But as I say, I totally get it that others don’t feel that way. 

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2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Your GJ comments are incredible, by that time he had been in charge nearly 5 years & it was going stale, his worst placed finish in The Championship? 10th, we even finished 14th under Millen the season he went.

What state was the playing staff in when GJ left? 

I get that he got us promoted, then into the Play-Offs. And our league finishes were strong.

But...all the mess that Millen, McInnes, SOD had to deal with...

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2 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Without a doubt my least favourite manager in the time I've been watching. Too young to remember Pulis. 

Hated his attitude & the football we played. 

As @And Its Smithmentioned above, we'd lump it long to 5'7 Baldock! 

Thank god for Keith Dawe bringing in Cotts to sort us out. 

I seem to recall the player after whom you have taken your user name said SOD was the best coach he worked with.

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3 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

One game his tactics were to put 5ft 7 Sam Baldock right wing and continuously smash long balls up to him.  Not quite the manager we all thought he would be  

See also: Millen with Maynard. And it was more than one game. Sometimes, teams just can't deliver - see most of this season. And last.

2 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Without a doubt my least favourite manager in the time I've been watching. Too young to remember Pulis. 

Hated his attitude & the football we played. 

As @And Its Smithmentioned above, we'd lump it long to 5'7 Baldock! 

Thank god for Keith Dawe bringing in Cotts to sort us out. 

I'm not too young. I remember Pulis (dreadful football) and Osman (dire beyond words, although a rotten squad).

I don't think there was anything wrong with SOD's "attitude", I think it was the way he came across. Not media friendly.

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15 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I seem to recall the player after whom you have taken your user name said SOD was the best coach he worked with.

Yeah he did, he mentioned it in his ‘cider with’ episode I believe. 

But then you’ll hear others not so complimentary, standard for most managers I expect. 

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8 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

What state was the playing staff in when GJ left? 

I get that he got us promoted, then into the Play-Offs. And our league finishes were strong.

But...all the mess that Millen, McInnes, SOD had to deal with...

Yep. GJ left us with loads of average players who we couldn't shift off our books, remind you of anyone?

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3 hours ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

That Sheffield United game  set the gold standard for dreadful football ,I don't think we entered their penalty area until the last 5 minutes.

As a football fan one accepts losing but to lose in such a negative and boring manner is unforgiveable.

To give those who did not attend some idea how bad it was it made England v Algeria look like a classic 

 

I think I mentioned before, that was the only game of football where I've fallen asleep from boredom.

I remember thinking  after the game: "If this guy stays, I'm going to stop attending". There was a whole row of empty seats behind me in the Dolman - people who had already made that decision

Fortunately, it was SOD's penultimate match.

The difference Steve Cotterill made within a few weeks was incredible.  The players were suddenly unshackled from an over-rigid coaching plan and allowed to be creative. 

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21 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I think I mentioned before, that was the only game of football where I've fallen asleep from boredom.

I remember thinking  after the game: "If this guy stays, I'm going to stop attending". There was a whole row of empty seats behind me in the Dolman - people who had already made that decision

Fortunately, it was SOD's penultimate match.

The difference Steve Cotterill made within a few weeks was incredible.  The players were suddenly unshackled from an over-rigid coaching plan and allowed to be creative

Interesting use of words. Do you think that they were possibly being overcoached, and being fed too much information to take in?

The phrase "back to basics" is quite often used within football, Cotterill did a lot with that same group of players (bear in mind that Flint and Fielding may as well have been on the scrapheap) with a few exceptions. 

Is this squad suffering from the same problem - being overcoached? We know that Johnson liked to big himself up and appear the smartest in the room. Measuring the grass, all the meetings with God knows who from every walk of life. Holden was a big part of that, so to an extent, we've just been seeing the continuation of Johnsons work maybe? 

Perhaps this bunch collectively have just been overcoached and no longer know what to do with each other.

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5 minutes ago, Taz said:

Interesting use of words. Do you think that they were possibly being overcoached, and being fed too much information to take in?

The phrase "back to basics" is quite often used within football, Cotterill did a lot with that same group of players (bear in mind that Flint and Fielding may as well have been on the scrapheap) with a few exceptions. 

Is this squad suffering from the same problem - being overcoached? We know that Johnson liked to big himself up and appear the smartest in the room. Measuring the grass, all the meetings with God knows who from every walk of life. Holden was a big part of that, so to an extent, we've just been seeing the continuation of Johnsons work maybe? 

Perhaps this bunch collectively have just been overcoached and no longer know what to do with each other.

 

Yep, and it's horses for courses. Some players adapt better to being told to play in a certain way; some players have the ability to be strictly drilled (oo-er missus!) more than others. 

If you took City's starting XI, made them watch Man City videos all week and told them to play in exactly the same way as their MCFC counterparts, it wouldn't make them world beaters. They neither have the ability or the football intelligence to do that.  You have to coach them and set up the side to reflect their ability. Know their strengths - and weaknesses.

It seems to me SOD had a plan which he could eloquently explain to all and sundry, but when he saw it not working with the players he had, he was loathe to ditch it. Instead, we saw the same plan fail over and over because he was convinced that eventually, eventually it would work. "It's worked before, it'll work again," was the mindset. This ignored the human element: what works with one group of players may not work with another.

Cotts made things simpler, and encouraged the team to push up. It paid instant dividends.

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