"City's problems two years in the making" - BP

[Mendip City]

3 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

But the issue is about leadership, not just good centre halves, and that’s what we’ve been lacking.  We have been screaming out for an on-field leader for the whole of 2021, and Kalas clearly isn’t it.  Look at the leadership we had in the last promotion team: not just Wade Elliott, but the likes of Korey Smith, Aden Flint, Aaron Wilbraham and Marlon Pack.  Big strong personalities on the field and in the dressing room.  That’s what we’ve been lacking. 

Spot on. This is it. We’ve always got plenty of quality, technical players... we recruit positions but not personalities, characters, roles. 
Where are the leaders, organisers, chips are down players... the winners? 
Worse still our polite, shrinking violets are being expected to teach our younger players. That could be damaging. 
This is down to recruitment and the person who has the final say... the head coach needs to ensure there’s are good blend. That might mean signing a technically less gifted player because of his presence and leadership skills. 
A fully fit Bailey Wright-type would probably have been more use to us than Kalas this season. Better still that type of player alongside Kalas would definitely have made us better.  The same story will exist in midfield and all over the pitch. 
Let’s hope Nige can find the 4 or 5 characters we need. 

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Wonder if it's a coincidence that this article has appeared after LJ was back in Clifton this weekend

Anyway, very good article that aligns with what the likes of me and @Harry have been saying for ages in terms of how much say LJ really had in incomings/outgoings. 

Bottom line is that LJ had to keep selling his best players and leaders each season whilst being expected to mount play off challenges paying lower midtable wages. 

Given that context and especially what has happened since he left, it looks like he wasn't doing such a bad job afterall. His teams had much more fight and spirit than the current group does. They battled for results and got them. 

I couldn’t agree more KITR.

I have no ‘inside knowledge’ whatsoever, but I always had a sense that losing Webster and Brownhill were big blows, and unexpected blows, to LJ. Of course, as @Robbored and others have said, we are a selling club, we all knew that, and LJ would have expected to lose players that way. But there always felt something different about those two. Reid, Kelly, Bryan, even Kodjia (albeit after protracted negotiations and a bit of brinkmanship) went as and when expected and whilst you can debate how effectively we replace them, at least LJ had the time to plan for that. Webster I don’t think was planned in that way - it was just a huge, late bid - and the likes of Moore were never lined up as a replacement that season, and rightly not. Likewise Brownhill. 

[lenred]

9 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Absolutely Tin,

How many players did we buy under LJ wasn't it something silly like 55-60?

We seemed to have an approach of quantity over quality, with unnecessary sometimes 3/4 players for every position. Cue a ridiculous amount of players out on loan, that we were no doubt heavily subsidising.

By all means send out the under 23's, or young players on loan. But what was the point bringing players in for fees on large wages; and then putting them out on loan to bring down the wage bill? 

We seemed to think that we were some sort of Championship version of Chelsea. A kind of football factory, that could buy players in, develop them (sometimes at other clubs); and then sell them for a profit. 

Whilst all the time selling off the real silverware from the first team, and having no consistent plan as to how to replace them.

MA really did see himself as a wheeler dealer, and probably got a massive buzz out of the whole process. Not sure how he could claim to be working to a plan though. It was almost like some sort of Ponzi scheme, that this season with so many OOC, Covid, and transfer system grinding to a halt has come crashing down on us.

Also probably used it as a way of trying to justify his massive salary - twice the average lest we forget of an average CEO in the Champ. ‘Look at all these amazing deals I’m doing Steve’  

[mozo]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

Much like letting Smith go though, people thought we needed an upgrade and Pack wasn’t good enough etc etc but he went on to play 43 games for a club that finished 7th places higher than us in his first season away from us..

I don't think there was any issue with hoping for upgrades on Pack and Smith given the stage of their careers.

But we didn't replace them correctly.

[WarksRobin]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

This is why imo, football needs to get rid of transfer windows.

We have FFP in place to control spending, so why keep transfer windows?

What's the point in having a recruitment team working all year, building a team with diligence, only for all that hard work to be torn up by selling a player/s, and having to panic and replace with make shift?

You can't stop a player from wanting to better himself, but at least stop the madness.

They want clubs to run properly, but all transfer windows do is encourage inflated prices and panic.

It contradicts the ethos of FFP and running a club dilegently.

Imagine how much desperate clubs would spend if they were near the relegation places approaching the end of the season. Removing the transfer window would encourage reckless panic spending and cause more financial problems for clubs. It also stops wealthy clubs from buying their way out of trouble. 

[Davefevs]

47 minutes ago, lenred said:

Agree. The Pack situation crystallises what a shambles recruitment has been since.  Thought we were going to get better in order to push on and ended up with nowhere near.

On a related note it’s interesting that NP says that the recruitment team are excellent (paraphrasing) here.  I’m guessing it’s the same team still on place bar Werhun / Ashton whom I appreciate would be massive parts of the process but still the system as whole doesn’t seem to be working great atm. From all his interviews and comments that was something that stood out as slightly worrying.   It may be that he is being positive in order to keep up the teams morale at such a crucial time I guess.  

Let’s not forget Recruitment is a team....that team has Tinnion firmly embedded too.  But that team does appear to be threadbare in Scouting Network, and very data / video based.  MA as the deal negotiator is no more either.  I can only imagine he’s been using his network of contacts throughout football to get this summer’s recruitment drive up to speed.

46 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Graham, for me Pack had been poor the previous season; and his poor form had continued into the following season. I was happy to let him go, and thought the alleged £4m we got from Cardiff, to be a fantastic bit of business.

I think what has been laid bare, is the fundamental difference between us, and someone like Brentford. A team that like us, have been forced to sell some of their better players, due to their inability to get promotion.

They seem to have a coherent transition policy, and were thus able to continue continuity; even when selling players like Maupay, Watkins, Benrahma etc. Other than Webster for Flint, I can't think of a big sale player at City that has been replaced by either a better player; or one that has developed into a bigger sale themselves.

MA literally has sold the cupboards bare over the last 4 years, and we've been left with 13 OOC players going for no money at all. He can't even claim to have bought any of the sold player in (bar Webster). They were already in our system through either the Academy or managers like SOD.

How have we got to such a situation, that even though we have sold £75m worth of players in the last 4/5 years; we have been having to play the under 23s in the first team, just to get through the season, what an absolute mess.

I wonder what the relationship will be like between SL and MA now? NP has by all accounts shown SL the truth, rather than the manufactured one from MA. SL says that he counts MA as a good friend, but must surely feel let down by this "friend"; who he had trusted to run the club on his behalf. What has become evident no doubt to SL is that he has been spun a whole load of untruths. Hence the immediate sacking of Rolls, as soon as the deception became apparent.

As to the coaching set up/back office of NP. I'm sure the current set up will be replaced in time. But we only have 3 months until the start of the new season. These things take time, and that's something that we are so short of. We need to get people through either the exit/entry door quickly; and integrated into the current set up. You can't do that at the same time as sorting out your coaching/back office team.

NP has no-one on the board to delegate these things to (I don't count JL, who is just a figure head; and has probably gone back to Bermuda already). There is no chief exec/secretary/medical team/performance team or anyone.

All fun this isn't it. I don't envy NP. He's already said that the job is much, much bigger than he realised.

 

I agree re Pack.....LJ building his team style around Pack staying “in the cage” (his words not mine) stifled Pack, and stifled City as an attacking unit.  It did massively protect Webster and Kalas....until both went!

If Pack was that important to LJ (irrespective of our views on him), why not offer him more money to stay.....rather than then spend it on Nagy and Massengo....then Henriksen?  From a mate who is Pack’s neighbour, he wasn’t angling for a move.

[tin]

21 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

How many players did we buy under LJ wasn't it something silly like 55-60?

Bristol Live makes it 62 (perm & loan) during LJ's four years. 

MA really did see himself as a wheeler dealer, and probably got a massive buzz out of the whole process. Not sure how he could claim to be working to a plan though. It was almost like some sort of Ponzi scheme, that this season with so many OOC, Covid, and transfer system grinding to a halt has come crashing down on us.

Spot on. I suspect he was probably taking a percentage from deals with certain agents. I don't have anything to substantiate that, though. 

[Will Rollason]

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I personally wanted Pack to go. 4 million was a good fee for him.

The plan seemed to be to play 352, so 3 central midfielders.

We had Smith, Nagy, Brownhill, Massengo, O'Dowda and Palmer to choose from in those 3 midfield positions.

Pack doesn't get in front of Korey and Brownhill for me. Either could be deepest or box to box and then one of the others.

Obviously Korey being out for much of the season was a big loss. But Nagy too, who was superb in a couple of early games in that system. 

We probably suffered too many injuries last season too. Maybe we could have done with Pack with those injuries, but I don't think he would have fitted into the full strength 11 with everyone fit, so you take the 4 million.

Loaning Pato out was a big mistake too. The biggest problem was actually up front though. Fam did not fit in at all with how LJ wanted to play. Losing Afobe was a big loss because we no longer could play the way we were.

Those 4 wins in a row with Fam up top on his own was the best part of the season. But Wells signing then made LJ change his mind and go with Fam and Wells that didn't ever look right.

I'm with you and I didn't particularly rate Marlon but I think the main thrust is we lost too many leaders at once without replacing them.

Don't forget that Pep Guardiola rated him as well.. strange as it may seem to us. 

[steviestevieneville]

37 minutes ago, BanburyRed said:

This is the key bit for me. For all the bluff and bluster coming out of the club, did we actively have a sound and robust system in place for recruitment that said if we sell player A, then player B comes in to replace.  Judging by NP's comments on the Sound of the City earlier in the week, he stated that the recruitment structure seems to be very good. Which would then lead you to believe that the players being targeted weren't up to it.

Not so much club DNA as Mark Ashton saying 'Do Not Argue'...!

I always thought about the statement coming from Ashton regarding who had the final say on players. The head coach has the final say or words to that affect. That’s all well & good , but how much input did LJ/DH have into the list of players being drawn up in the first place . 

[lenred]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Let’s not forget Recruitment is a team....that team has Tinnion firmly embedded too.  But that team does appear to be threadbare in Scouting Network, and very data / video based.  MA as the deal negotiator is no more either.  I can only imagine he’s been using his network of contacts throughout football to get this summer’s recruitment drive up to speed.

 

Hence my surprise that NP said it was excellent when surely it needs quite a bit of work.  

[Dullmoan Tone]

Lots of talk about poor recruitment but I wonder whether it was more about poor player development?

It will be very interesting to see how Sam Szmodics does next season - with 15 goals from midfield this season (albeit L1) he seems to be the one that got away.

We also had a gem in Nic Eliasson, but never seemed to be able to coach the best out of him.

And Walsh only managed to develop after we loaned him. Likewise Nagy has definitely not developed significantly since that brilliant early performance vs QPR.

I appreciate that this would mean changing tactics - none of these players could play the quarter back role that Pack did, however, it we had moved to a more fluid passing midfield with runners (inc Nagy, Sam, HNM, Eliasson) - with the skill running and trickery of Pato, perhaps we could have built a new pressing style of play rather than where we are now with no recognisable pattern or entertainment.

I just hope Pearson's recruitment of Simpson was the mark of desperation, not the template he prefers, or our recruitment nightmare might just be on pause!

[TomThumb84]

Professionals like Mark Ashton appear to operate in a very certain way.

This being that they are always on a limited time-frame because of how they are and do business:

Loosely the pattern tends to follow this trend (often through a short term mentality based on subconscious instinct to protect the individual):

i) Come in and make the most of the “low-hanging fruit”;

 
Now, the reason why we were a unique opportunity for an opportunist is we were prime for this. Naively, we did not know what an attractive vehicle we were. We had assembled a side full of very saleable assets, and needed to tweak and add to this sensibly to consolidate in the Championship. That did not happen. All of our prized assets were pinged off for a headline “transfer fees in” column.

ii) Always repeat and live off your initial successes which were actually built by someone else, whilst establishing absolute autonomy for areas that could threaten your position;

Ashton’s fall back and jewel in the crown always was his negotiating power, “relationships built with big clubs” (Chelsea have had £15m quid off us, but we have currently one regular player to show for it who is actually shot of confidence due to the pressure of an armband he should never have had) and ability to recoup on transfers, but that works two ways. You need to maintain a steady capable playing squad whilst doing this. We have replaced big parts of this squad with lesser “people” or characters, and it has left a disconnect through the squad and once you tailspin, players values decrease sharply. By this time key areas of the business (recruitment, medical team/processes), are falling almost entirely under said individuals remit.

iii) Deflect accountability;

As success dries up through poor succession planning (always comes back to recruitment), appoint people or keep people in jobs who feel they owe you loyalty despite the fact that may not be capable. Its a great time-buyer. Mark Ashton appeared to do this, has done it, and is now going to do this it appears at Ipswich. Part of this is also of course saying and being seen to be doing all the right things to your superiors (this helps massively if they are not always physically in the business).

iv) Time your exit strategy;

Ensure continuity in your own career whilst highlighting high-profile success (High Performance Centre, stadium redevelopment, selling players) etc, whilst neglecting the tangibles that are the things that really matter (recruitment, contract negotiation, appointing the right manager/head-coach) but as this is actually like eating an elephant by this stage it does not matter because it was never going to be longterm anyway.

This whole thing happens time and time again and almost in plain sight.

Its the equivalent of being given a sports car and driving it everywhere at 80mph knowing you can just leave it at the side of the road when someone offers you a new one. You look good doing it though until someone more qualified than you takes a look under the bonnet. By that time you are in the wind with a shell left for someone else to restore.

I may be way off the mark but thats my feel on the last few years anyway.

 

[Roger Red Hat]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Let’s not forget Recruitment is a team.

Which will hopefully have a new leader soon.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

That would have been my point.

Pack has been a regular at Cardiff & they have consistently outperformed us over the period he’s been there.

Ashton just seemed to want perpetual change (no idea how much LJ bought into this) but sometimes you just need to appreciate value, as opposed to price.

A lot of transfers, both in and out, means a lot of agent’s palms being greased!  I wonder how much money has been spent on the “consultants” like Richard Lee, on top of agents.

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

I personally wanted Pack to go. 4 million was a good fee for him.

The plan seemed to be to play 352, so 3 central midfielders.

We had Smith, Nagy, Brownhill, Massengo, O'Dowda and Palmer to choose from in those 3 midfield positions.

Pack doesn't get in front of Korey and Brownhill for me. Either could be deepest or box to box and then one of the others.

Obviously Korey being out for much of the season was a big loss. But Nagy too, who was superb in a couple of early games in that system. 

We probably suffered too many injuries last season too. Maybe we could have done with Pack with those injuries, but I don't think he would have fitted into the full strength 11 with everyone fit, so you take the 4 million.

Loaning Pato out was a big mistake too. The biggest problem was actually up front though. Fam did not fit in at all with how LJ wanted to play. Losing Afobe was a big loss because we no longer could play the way we were.

Those 4 wins in a row with Fam up top on his own was the best part of the season. But Wells signing then made LJ change his mind and go with Fam and Wells that didn't ever look right.

The plan was 4231.....versus Leeds, QPR (and pre-season).  352 was the reaction to losing players.  Even then it didn’t last long, ever before Afobe’s injury, he went 442 v Boro (h).  Then flip-flopped several times either pre-game or half-time.  To me it looked like he was winging it, and hoping something would work.

1 hour ago, Will Rollason said:

I'm with you and I didn't particularly rate Marlon but I think the main thrust is we lost too many leaders at once without replacing them.

Don't forget that Pep Guardiola rated him as well.. strange as it may seem to us. 

He also said Bailey Wright was a good footballing RB!

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

To me it looked like he was winging it, and hoping something would work.

And there, in a nutshell , is how I feel about Lee Johnsons time here. 

[NcnsBcfc]

58 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Professionals like Mark Ashton appear to operate in a very certain way.

This being that they are always on a limited time-frame because of how they are and do business:

Loosely the pattern tends to follow this trend (often through a short term mentality based on subconscious instinct to protect the individual):

i) Come in and make the most of the “low-hanging fruit”;

 
Now, the reason why we were a unique opportunity for an opportunist is we were prime for this. Naively, we did not know what an attractive vehicle we were. We had assembled a side full of very saleable assets, and needed to tweak and add to this sensibly to consolidate in the Championship. That did not happen. All of our prized assets were pinged off for a headline “transfer fees in” column.

ii) Always repeat and live off your initial successes which were actually built by someone else, whilst establishing absolute autonomy for areas that could threaten your position;

Ashton’s fall back and jewel in the crown always was his negotiating power, “relationships built with big clubs” (Chelsea have had £15m quid off us, but we have currently one regular player to show for it who is actually shot of confidence due to the pressure of an armband he should never have had) and ability to recoup on transfers, but that works two ways. You need to maintain a steady capable playing squad whilst doing this. We have replaced big parts of this squad with lesser “people” or characters, and it has left a disconnect through the squad and once you tailspin, players values decrease sharply. By this time key areas of the business (recruitment, medical team/processes), are falling almost entirely under said individuals remit.

iii) Deflect accountability;

As success dries up through poor succession planning (always comes back to recruitment), appoint people or keep people in jobs who feel they owe you loyalty despite the fact that may not be capable. Its a great time-buyer. Mark Ashton appeared to do this, has done it, and is now going to do this it appears at Ipswich. Part of this is also of course saying and being seen to be doing all the right things to your superiors (this helps massively if they are not always physically in the business).

iv) Time your exit strategy;

Ensure continuity in your own career whilst highlighting high-profile success (High Performance Centre, stadium redevelopment, selling players) etc, whilst neglecting the tangibles that are the things that really matter (recruitment, contract negotiation, appointing the right manager/head-coach) but as this is actually like eating an elephant by this stage it does not matter because it was never going to be longterm anyway.

This whole thing happens time and time again and almost in plain sight.

Its the equivalent of being given a sports car and driving it everywhere at 80mph knowing you can just leave it at the side of the road when someone offers you a new one. You look good doing it though until someone more qualified than you takes a look under the bonnet. By that time you are in the wind with a shell left for someone else to restore.

I may be way off the mark but thats my feel on the last few years anyway.

 

Good Post.

I've sure I've been told by someone ITK, that not only did MA pretty much use the one agency in this country for the majority of his UK business (Wasserman I believe).

But that he only used one agent on the continent as well; for all our French/Italian transactions. This agent had of course limited access to a majority of the  players; and thus the pool of players available to us; was somewhat limited.

Like you say @TomThumb84, not really the measure of someone who had cultivated wonderful negotiating positions. Rather someone who liked to use the old mates route; and in keeping with the points that you've made in your post.

God, what a spin doctor he was. Sometimes it's only after they've gone, that you suddenly become aware of the magnitude of the deception.

[DaveInSA]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

This is why imo, football needs to get rid of transfer windows.

We have FFP in place to control spending, so why keep transfer windows?

What's the point in having a recruitment team working all year, building a team with diligence, only for all that hard work to be torn up by selling a player/s, and having to panic and replace with make shift?

You can't stop a player from wanting to better himself, but at least stop the madness.

They want clubs to run properly, but all transfer windows do is encourage inflated prices and panic.

It contradicts the ethos of FFP and running a club dilegently.

But what would Sky do?

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Let’s not forget Recruitment is a team....that team has Tinnion firmly embedded too.  But that team does appear to be threadbare in Scouting Network, and very data / video based.  MA as the deal negotiator is no more either.  I can only imagine he’s been using his network of contacts throughout football to get this summer’s recruitment drive up to speed.

I agree re Pack.....LJ building his team style around Pack staying “in the cage” (his words not mine) stifled Pack, and stifled City as an attacking unit.  It did massively protect Webster and Kalas....until both went!

If Pack was that important to LJ (irrespective of our views on him), why not offer him more money to stay.....rather than then spend it on Nagy and Massengo....then Henriksen?  From a mate who is Pack’s neighbour, he wasn’t angling for a move.

And we're consistently saying on OTIB that the defence is the problem. It isn't. It's the midfield and how the team defend collectively as a whole.

I didn't rate Pack nor did I rate Smith. Both capable players, maybe with the correct men alongside them they improved, but as a pair - capable, but not special.

Our recruitment is terrible. DNA is great - but you also need leadership DNA - we've got a load of wet blankets and teenagers - they're lovely blokes but we need warriors on the field.

 

[IAmNick]

27 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Good Post.

I've sure I've been told by someone ITK, that not only did MA pretty much use the one agency in this country for the majority of his UK business (Wasserman I believe).

But that he only used one agent on the continent as well; for all our French/Italian transactions. This agent had of course limited access to a majority of the  players; and thus the pool of players available to us; was somewhat limited.

This has been said quite a few times here but I'm not sure I believe it personally. Wasserman are a huge agency so it's not surprising we use them a fair bit.

Looking at Transfermarkt (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/berateruebersicht/verein/698) we have 5 players who use them: Weimann, O'Dowda, Williams, Walsh, and Vyner. Not exactly our high profile or expensive signings there?

[NcnsBcfc]

11 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

This has been said quite a few times here but I'm not sure I believe it personally. Wasserman are a huge agency so it's not surprising we use them a fair bit.

Looking at Transfermarkt (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/berateruebersicht/verein/698) we have 5 players who use them: Weimann, O'Dowda, Williams, Walsh, and Vyner. Not exactly our high profile or expensive signings there?

I think Brunt was with them as well.

A number of players of course change agency. It would be interesting to know which agency they were with, when they joined us; rather than who they are with now?

Was more fussed about his use of only one agent on the European mainland in truth.

[IAmNick]

Just now, ncnsbcfc said:

I think Brunt was with them as well.

A number of players of course change agency. It would be interesting to know which agency they were with, when they joined us; rather than who they are with now?

 

Yeah good point - I don't know on that one! Certainly a possibility though.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

This has been said quite a few times here but I'm not sure I believe it personally. Wasserman are a huge agency so it's not surprising we use them a fair bit.

Looking at Transfermarkt (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/berateruebersicht/verein/698) we have 5 players who use them: Weimann, O'Dowda, Williams, Walsh, and Vyner. Not exactly our high profile or expensive signings there?

Some of those are only Wasserman because they bought out Key Sports Mgmt....I know O’Dowda was one of them....as was LJ himself.

[bcfcredandwhite]

I'm more of an LJ supporter than some on here. I DID recognise that it was time he went when he did - and to be honest it probably did him a favour, as even Sir Nigel hasn't been able to fix the current lot.........

Despite the cheesy interviews and some questionable tactics (not playing Eliasson in particular IMHO), I think he took a disproportional amount of stick from some members of our fan base who had it in for him, for reasons dating back from his playing days when he played for his dad (as part of the most successful team we've had since the Alan Dicks days). He deserved SOME stick for some of his errors of course, but not the tirade that he received from some quarters, who thought everything would suddenly fall into place with him gone. 

It's not surprising that Ashton was selling key players from under him, because that's what a money-driven businessman does - and it's no surprise that LJ took the blame, because that's what managers do. 

Let's hope that Nigel Pearson will be FULLY in charge of who comes in and who is sold, so this never happens again.

[SecretSam]

8 hours ago, spudski said:

This is why imo, football needs to get rid of transfer windows.

We have FFP in place to control spending, so why keep transfer windows?

What's the point in having a recruitment team working all year, building a team with diligence, only for all that hard work to be torn up by selling a player/s, and having to panic and replace with make shift?

You can't stop a player from wanting to better himself, but at least stop the madness.

They want clubs to run properly, but all transfer windows do is encourage inflated prices and panic.

It contradicts the ethos of FFP and running a club dilegently.

There's an argument that the limited transfer windows distort the market, driving up prices by limiting the time allowed to develop deals. An example was Liverpool rushing to replace Torres, and paying over the odds for an inadequate 'replacement'.

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Some of those are only Wasserman because they bought out Key Sports Mgmt....I know O’Dowda was one of them....as was LJ himself.

Who is NP with? Just asking!!

[SecretSam]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Of course he was, nobody wants to lose their best players, but that’s the strategy set by the owner / board, and he bought into that.

The point is, Dave, he bought into a philosophy like at other clubs - you buy low, sell high, but always have someone lined up if you're selling a key player. 

Our problem was, we sold without having the person ready to step in, and the people who did come in weren't as influential - Pack had his faults (although I always rated him), but he was a quiet leader on the pitch, and probably off it. 

[Red-Robbo]

8 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

While I get your point, wasn't the window brought in to stop rich clubs (usually) asset stripping smaller clubs near the end of a season to help their Trophy/Promotion/whatever push ? Example close to home, Goater went to Man City with about 8 games to go. Ironically in this context Wiki says last day of the window but the point remains. With 8 games left and 4 points behind Watford with a game in hand, we lose our best striker and lose 3 , draw one of those 8 and miss the title by 3 points. 
I think trying to keep the transfers out of the season was to try and make it a more even competition through the year. I doubt anyone likes it, unless you are one of the bigger fish. I guess in a perfect World there would be no transfers during the season, but I'd probably complain about that too. I hate that you can recruit through the summer, do a Pre-season, start playing games and still lose an important player because the window ends 2/3 weeks into the new season. 

 

Perhaps a much longer window, maybe ending in February, would get around the end-season cherry-picking whilst avoiding the August and January panic-buys?    

[SecretSam]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Perhaps a much longer window, maybe ending in February, would get around the end-season cherry-picking whilst avoiding the August and January panic-buys?    

The January window is moronic, way too short. Either make it longer or bin it, very rare for good business to be done there. Virtually all rush deals, like when we sold Maynard to West Ham...we just wanted someone to pay something for him, rather than let him go for nothing.

[pongo88]

6 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Pack needed to be moved on IMHO because, although he was a good player, he slowed the game down and was easily identified as our playmaker and marked out of games.

We saw the best of him. 
 

 

It’s true that he sometimes slowed the game down, but at least he passed the ball to players on his own side. The fact that he could easily be identified as our playmaker should be taken as a compliment. It’s impossible to identify who is the current playmaker because we haven’t got one. There are some players who manage the occasional creative pass, but nothing sufficiently consistent to call them a playmaker 

[1960maaan]

19 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Perhaps a much longer window, maybe ending in February, would get around the end-season cherry-picking whilst avoiding the August and January panic-buys?    

I really can't think of a good answer or system. I hate having players nicked just into a season, so I'd prefer it to end before the season started. The January window is a nightmare too. Not sure having no window during the season is practical though, difficult one.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

I really can't think of a good answer or system. I hate having players nicked just into a season, so I'd prefer it to end before the season started. The January window is a nightmare too. Not sure having no window during the season is practical though, difficult one.

 

Which is why maybe a window encompassing the first half or two-thirds of the season (plus summer of course) might avoid the "deadline day" insanity. At least a bit.