Jump to content
IGNORED

Gregor's Brentford Comparison


Recommended Posts

I agree with a lot of what Gregor has said about us and Brentford. There was a time when we were just a small step behind them.

Both clubs made good profits in the last five years; the difference being they have recruited better since selling on their stars- why is that?

Although there are parallels to be drawn their are also distinct differences that should be recognised.

1. The London factor- Living in London is a big draw for many players; Bristol by comparison is seen as a sleepy backwater. Fringe players from bigger London clubs are also more likely to agree a loan to Brentford as opposed to upping sticks to Bristol. 

2. Academy. This should be our strength by comparison as we have few competing set ups in our region. We have the facilities now to optimise this and to attract better senior players to play alongside our burgeoning pool of young talent.

3. Manager. Simply put Brentford have made excellent appointments in recent years. I am however confident we now have the right man in Pearson to take us forward again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Suffolk Red said:

I agree with a lot of what Gregor has said about us and Brentford. There was a time when we were just a small step behind them.

Both clubs made good profits in the last five years; the difference being they have recruited better since selling on their stars- why is that?

Although there are parallels to be drawn their are also distinct differences that should be recognised.

1. The London factor- Living in London is a big draw for many players; Bristol by comparison is seen as a sleepy backwater. Fringe players from bigger London clubs are also more likely to agree a loan to Brentford as opposed to upping sticks to Bristol. 

2. Academy. This should be our strength by comparison as we have few competing set ups in our region. We have the facilities now to optimise this and to attract better senior players to play alongside our burgeoning pool of young talent.

3. Manager. Simply put Brentford have made excellent appointments in recent years. I am however confident we now have the right man in Pearson to take us forward again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Answering your first point about being a London club;

 It is easier for foreign players to catch flights ‘ home’ from London than Bristol and there are communities of ex-patriots in the capital which make it easier for them to settle  in this country. 
 

A London club , however, has more rivals on their doorstep for players who wish to stay closer to home and therefore need to be as ,or more ,attractive to get these footballers signed.

There are negatives for  every positive.

We have been amateurishly run since forever and rarely used our advantages to progress , instead trying to copy another club’s success. Always chasing the last, fading fashion.

I believe SL has seen the light and I just hope that largish Nige is up to the task. 
 

Strap yourselves in. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Presumably Brentford’s model is no longer possible to copy or possible to continue with for them due to brexit?!? As I understand it, no clubs in England can just buy random players from France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc like they have been unless they’ve played a certain amount of games for their country or a high percentage of games in a top rated league (bundesliga, serie a, ligue 1 or la liga) 

Any players that have played lots of times for their country or in a top European league aren’t very likely to be heading to the championship anytime soon so it’s home grown or nothing for us now. No chance of finding another Mahrez, Benrahma, Mbuemo, Pontus Jansson etc. Not that our scouting department has ever been able to find a gem like them anyway. I’m sure someone on here will know the full rules and correct me if I’m wrong 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, jambodinho said:

Presumably Brentford’s model is no longer possible to copy or possible to continue with for them due to brexit?!? As I understand it, no clubs in England can just buy random players from France, Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc like they have been unless they’ve played a certain amount of games for their country or a high percentage of games in a top rated league (bundesliga, serie a, ligue 1 or la liga) 

Any players that have played lots of times for their country or in a top European league aren’t very likely to be heading to the championship anytime soon so it’s home grown or nothing for us now. No chance of finding another Mahrez, Benrahma, Mbuemo, Pontus Jansson etc. Not that our scouting department has ever been able to find a gem like them anyway. I’m sure someone on here will know the full rules and correct me if I’m wrong 

That’s my understanding too, and that it will make it much more difficult for Championship clubs to pick up unknowns from Europe. I think that’s why our strategy changed a year or two ago and now focuses much more on the academy plus more experience from loser to home

We didn’t to too badly with Kodjia. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

That’s my understanding too, and that it will make it much more difficult for Championship clubs to pick up unknowns from Europe. I think that’s why our strategy changed a year or two ago and now focuses much more on the academy plus more experience from loser to home

We didn’t to too badly with Kodjia. 

Was trying to work out if kodjia and diedhiou signings would have been possible under the new rules. They both played in ligue 2 which wouldn’t have been regarded as a top league and they have played for their country but it depends on if Senegal and Ivory Coast are considered to be top level countries. For example, we can’t go out and buy St Lucia or Samoa’s best player even if they’ve played 110 times for St Lucia or Samoa. The nation has to have a certain ranking in world football. I guess that’s where you employ someone to to figure all this out and create a shortlist of foreign players that would meet the criteria to gain a work permit. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a significant difference is that Brentford have operated a policy of identifying replacements before key players are sold. The only time recently we have successfully identified a replacement for a key player before he departed was Webster for Flint. As others have pointed out elsewhere, we have sold several players for big money in the past few years and replaced many of them with inferior quality. There has been no attempt to bring in players to fit a system, as Brentford do and Cotts and Burt did when they established their partnership. But the burgeoning success of our academy gives me hope, as there is now a clear pathway for talented young players.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Richard Head said:

I think a significant difference is that Brentford have operated a policy of identifying replacements before key players are sold. The only time recently we have successfully identified a replacement for a key player before he departed was Webster for Flint.

Exactly right - Brentford have been miles ahead of us in terms of selling and buying players. I’m not familiar with how their recruitment system works but Nige hinted post match that it’s well established.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, jambodinho said:

Was trying to work out if kodjia and diedhiou signings would have been possible under the new rules. They both played in ligue 2 which wouldn’t have been regarded as a top league and they have played for their country but it depends on if Senegal and Ivory Coast are considered to be top level countries. For example, we can’t go out and buy St Lucia or Samoa’s best player even if they’ve played 110 times for St Lucia or Samoa. The nation has to have a certain ranking in world football. I guess that’s where you employ someone to to figure all this out and create a shortlist of foreign players that would meet the criteria to gain a work permit. 

Yes, I think there’s a lot more uncertainty now, which of course will make it less attractive. You could spend a lot of effort tracking a player, negotiating etc and then find that someone rules that the criteria haven’t been met.

I don’t think (but may be wrong) there are any special rules around young players, which means we’d almost certainly have missed out on HNM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I don’t really get that, when players are happy to sign for Swansea and Cardiff, plus all the the other teams strewn around the country?

Quite. And Bristol is consistently voted one of the best places to live in the UK. Bristol, as a place, has probably never been so popular, in fact. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Richard Head said:

I think a significant difference is that Brentford have operated a policy of identifying replacements before key players are sold. The only time recently we have successfully identified a replacement for a key player before he departed was Webster for Flint. As others have pointed out elsewhere, we have sold several players for big money in the past few years and replaced many of them with inferior quality. There has been no attempt to bring in players to fit a system, as Brentford do and Cotts and Burt did when they established their partnership. But the burgeoning success of our academy gives me hope, as there is now a clear pathway for talented young players.

Think that’s a very good and relevant point. TBF, we had Tammy in place before we finally let Kodjia go. And when we sold Kelly and Reid we did so early enough in the transfer window to be able to plan around it.

As I’ve said elsewhere, I think Webster and Brownhill were the ones that were real knee jerk sales, and left LJ high and dry.

Edited by italian dave
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Quite. And Bristol is consistently voted one of the best places to live in the UK. Bristol, as a place, has probably never been so popular, in fact. 

Particulary Bedminster apparently 😁

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I right in thinking that Brentford actually disbanded their academy a few years back, as they didn’t think it was VFM? If so then regardless of how good their recruitment is we have a different type of model, so comparison isn’t completely like for like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Said season’s ago we should have just tracked what Brentford were doing and just offer more to their targets at the very last minute. They knew what they were doing, we didn’t.

Quite how we managed to get everything wrong... recruitment, DNA, medics, fitness, management is quite staggering though - even for us.  
 

How the hell we rebuild from where we are I do not know. There’s virtually nothing  worth keeping bar the hard infrastructure.
 

Yes, we have the Academy, but we’ve always had that and it continually fails to live up to expectations. Vyner, Bakinson and a Semenyo ain’t  going to have a better opportunity to prove their worth more than the last season. Have any of those three really grasped that opportunity? They all seem more of the inconsistent same. 

  

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Am I right in thinking that Brentford actually disbanded their academy a few years back, as they didn’t think it was VFM? If so then regardless of how good their recruitment is we have a different type of model, so comparison isn’t completely like for like.

Yes, they did.

I am so bored of having to point out that this rush to “copy Brentford” stuff always totally misses the point.

Their model is unique, no Academy, they run a B team which sometimes includes trialists & plays friendlies & have a very close connection with Denmark (Matthew Benham owns a club there),

The side that faced us at the weekend had 9 starters who aren’t British.

We can certainly learn from their recruitment policy of identifying replacements before players are sold, though Peterborough probably do that bit just as well.

The rest of the comparison is just lazy, is anyone seriously thinking we should scrap our Academy? Or do we copy Brentford only when it suits?

Edited by GrahamC
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Yes, they did.

I am so bored of having to point out that this rush to “copy Brentford” stuff always totally misses the point.

Their model is unique, no Academy, they run a B team which sometimes includes trialists & plays friendlies & have a very close connection with Denmark (Matthew Benham owns a club there),

The side that faced us at the weekend had 9 starters who aren’t British.

We can certainly learn from their recruitment policy of identifying replacements before players are sold, though Peterborough probably do that bit just as well.

The rest of the comparison is just lazy, is anyone seriously thinking we should scrap our Academy? Or do we copy Brentford only when it suits?

Agreed.

But Brentford may have to have a rethink as Brexit might have scuppered part of their recruitment policy - unless they win the play-offs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jambodinho said:

Was trying to work out if kodjia and diedhiou signings would have been possible under the new rules. They both played in ligue 2 which wouldn’t have been regarded as a top league and they have played for their country but it depends on if Senegal and Ivory Coast are considered to be top level countries. For example, we can’t go out and buy St Lucia or Samoa’s best player even if they’ve played 110 times for St Lucia or Samoa. The nation has to have a certain ranking in world football. I guess that’s where you employ someone to to figure all this out and create a shortlist of foreign players that would meet the criteria to gain a work permit. 

Kodjia might just have scraped in, very tight tight looking at the rules.

Angers we’re in Ligue1 (Kodjia got them promoted) for Diedhiou, so he would’ve walked it.

Expect clubs to be checking out the value of Turkey, Belgium and Holland’s top-flight, rather than Bundesliga2 going forward.  Those National top flight leagues in band 1 and 2 are pretty nigh on guaranteed to get a WP.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Am I right in thinking that Brentford actually disbanded their academy a few years back, as they didn’t think it was VFM? If so then regardless of how good their recruitment is we have a different type of model, so comparison isn’t completely like for like.

They may find themselves in difficulty if they persist with their actual plan as recruiting players from minor leagues will be much more difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Suffolk Red said:

I agree with a lot of what Gregor has said about us and Brentford. There was a time when we were just a small step behind them.

Both clubs made good profits in the last five years; the difference being they have recruited better since selling on their stars- why is that?

Although there are parallels to be drawn their are also distinct differences that should be recognised.

1. The London factor- Living in London is a big draw for many players; Bristol by comparison is seen as a sleepy backwater. Fringe players from bigger London clubs are also more likely to agree a loan to Brentford as opposed to upping sticks to Bristol. 

2. Academy. This should be our strength by comparison as we have few competing set ups in our region. We have the facilities now to optimise this and to attract better senior players to play alongside our burgeoning pool of young talent.

3. Manager. Simply put Brentford have made excellent appointments in recent years. I am however confident we now have the right man in Pearson to take us forward again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bristol City academy is not performing poorly or exceptionally but by comparison there are numerous academies and club development centres in the region. Bristol City's network is limited.

Exeter City cover more of the region than BCFC do and operate development centres to feed players into their academy in several counties.

Southampton have a training facility that exceeds Bristol City and a regional network of developmental centres around the West Country. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

 

We have been amateurishly run since forever and rarely used our advantages to progress , instead trying to copy another club’s success. Always chasing the last, fading fashion.

I believe SL has seen the light and I just hope that largish Nige is up to the task. 

Bristol is unique and has very strong culture and identity yet what do we do ignore all of this and aim to become like every other else.

Take this opportunity, make our club stand out from the rest not slavishly follow them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Yes, they did.

I am so bored of having to point out that this rush to “copy Brentford” stuff always totally misses the point.

Their model is unique, no Academy, they run a B team which sometimes includes trialists & plays friendlies & have a very close connection with Denmark (Matthew Benham owns a club there),

The side that faced us at the weekend had 9 starters who aren’t British.

We can certainly learn from their recruitment policy of identifying replacements before players are sold, though Peterborough probably do that bit just as well.

The rest of the comparison is just lazy, is anyone seriously thinking we should scrap our Academy? Or do we copy Brentford only when it suits?

Think some of us have been pretty consistent in our views viz doing things differently - more in alignment with the Brentford’s of this World.

Serious about scrapping the Academy? Well, now is delivery time. We’ve heard for decades the ‘there’s always tomorrow’ .... the Academy seems always been the excuse for not delivering in the now. Massive investment, our Strategy ‘success or failure’ hinging on it, been up and running for what two plus decades ......we’ve finished 19th in the Championship. 
 

Would it have been better to invest in scouting and coaching rather than the Academy? Well, the Ollie Watkins of this world made his choices...and it wasn’t us. Followed by Toney....followed by.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Answering your first point about being a London club;

 It is easier for foreign players to catch flights ‘ home’ from London than Bristol and there are communities of ex-patriots in the capital which make it easier for them to settle  in this country. 
 

A London club , however, has more rivals on their doorstep for players who wish to stay closer to home and therefore need to be as ,or more ,attractive to get these footballers signed.

There are negatives for  every positive.

We have been amateurishly run since forever and rarely used our advantages to progress , instead trying to copy another club’s success. Always chasing the last, fading fashion.

I believe SL has seen the light and I just hope that largish Nige is up to the task. 
 

Strap yourselves in. 

It depends of the level of the player. What you're saying is true for Arsenal/Chelsea/Spurs (look how often they're rumoured to be after the same targets) but then works for clubs who are historically not as strong (West Ham for example) who can get the next tier of players.

The same will be true for Brentford. Whilst Fulham are in the league above, Brentford can monopolise that London advantage at their current level. Their transfer rivals are clubs like ourselves and others in the Championship. As shown by signing sought after players in recent years such as Toney, Watkins, Canos, Maupay, Mbuemo etc.

I think, whilst we aren't as attractive as London, Bristol could be a very attractive destination for foreign players. It's something we've got much better at and our foreign players seem to generally settle pretty well here these days. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Yes, they did.

I am so bored of having to point out that this rush to “copy Brentford” stuff always totally misses the point.

Their model is unique, no Academy, they run a B team which sometimes includes trialists & plays friendlies & have a very close connection with Denmark (Matthew Benham owns a club there),

The side that faced us at the weekend had 9 starters who aren’t British.

We can certainly learn from their recruitment policy of identifying replacements before players are sold, though Peterborough probably do that bit just as well.

The rest of the comparison is just lazy, is anyone seriously thinking we should scrap our Academy? Or do we copy Brentford only when it suits?

Chris wilder was once asked about copying Brentford’s model he replied I would need to employ another 180 staff which relates to Matthew Benhams company smart odds that supplies data to the club ( something that is often ridiculed by the media)Brexit will affect our recruitment unless we get promoted then we could recruit from another level.As some have righty said on here being in london helps in recruitment ,although I moved out and live nearer to Bristol than London and never regretted it.we have only had 1 loaneee in 4 seasons and that was in January when we run out of centre backs as we have to buy players and sell to survive.
                   Scrapping the academy made sense as it was costing a fortune and producing very little and being in London amongst the big boys we were better placed to pick up the drop outs from their academy’s like Josh Dasilva from Arsenal.We have had plenty of success with EFL players over the years like Gray Hogan Tawkoski Mepham Konsa Watkins Dallas Woods ect.We have done really well in what has been a very poor league this season and to finish 3 rd with injuries to key players ( but not at the same level as you have) and banking 50 mill for Watkins and Benrahma and buying a new ground is fine by me if not by our many New fans.Next season if we don’t go up will see us lose some top players Toney definately and then Henry Norguaard Pinnock maybe.Thomas Frank may also look for other challenges and I wouldn’t blame him he’s an excellent coach and it’s not an attractive job when you have to sell  your best players every season something many of our fans don’t understand.Hope you get your act together next season you have a fantastic ground and good manager in Pearson give him time to clear out and bring in his own players and who knows where you will end up.I a, looking forward to going to see the new stadium later this month when we are at home to Bournmouth in the playoff will be great to catch up with mates haven’t seen since last March when we didn’t know it was the last game ever at Griffin park also see Ivan Toney for the first time ..unbelievable times.

 

     

  • Like 14
  • Flames 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

Am I right in thinking that Brentford actually disbanded their academy a few years back, as they didn’t think it was VFM? If so then regardless of how good their recruitment is we have a different type of model, so comparison isn’t completely like for like.

 

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Yes, they did.

I am so bored of having to point out that this rush to “copy Brentford” stuff always totally misses the point.

Their model is unique, no Academy, they run a B team which sometimes includes trialists & plays friendlies & have a very close connection with Denmark (Matthew Benham owns a club there),

The side that faced us at the weekend had 9 starters who aren’t British.

We can certainly learn from their recruitment policy of identifying replacements before players are sold, though Peterborough probably do that bit just as well.

The rest of the comparison is just lazy, is anyone seriously thinking we should scrap our Academy? Or do we copy Brentford only when it suits?

Yes Steveybadger, as Graham says, they don’t operate an academy, so comparisons are very thin to be honest. 
 

Our recruitment model above u18 level is very much restricted by the ‘pathway’. 
If we see a good 20 year old, we weigh up whether that player coming in would block the pathway of an existing player in our academy. So it’s a totally different thought process when looking at a younger player. 
 

All that said, there’s no reason we shouldn’t have been in for players like Watkins, Toney, Henry, Fosu, Baptiste, Pinnock, Konsa, Dasilva in the last 2 or 3 years, as they were all based in England prior to Brentford signing them. 
You can go back further and include Bentley, Egan, Sawyers, Woods, Gray, Laurent, O’Connell, Tarkowski in that too. All players I had on my radar before they signed them, so no reason City couldn’t have picked up all of those very good players too. We eventually got Bentley. 
 

In most of those cases, we knew these players, but chose not to be interested. 
 

Edit - I see the Brentford fan above has just said pretty much the same thing and listed the same players. 👍

Edited by Harry
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RedRock said:

Said season’s ago we should have just tracked what Brentford were doing and just offer more to their targets at the very last minute. They knew what they were doing, we didn’t.

Quite how we managed to get everything wrong... recruitment, DNA, medics, fitness, management is quite staggering though - even for us.  
 

How the hell we rebuild from where we are I do not know. There’s virtually nothing  worth keeping bar the hard infrastructure.
 

Yes, we have the Academy, but we’ve always had that and it continually fails to live up to expectations. Vyner, Bakinson and a Semenyo ain’t  going to have a better opportunity to prove their worth more than the last season. Have any of those three really grasped that opportunity? They all seem more of the inconsistent same. 

  

We tried doing that did try doing that - that's one reason it went so wrong, e.g. Watkins and Exeter said no sighting Brentfords ability to develop and sell on players making bigger money for Exeter and Watkins overall - and they weren't wrong. 

I personally think we tried to copy them and ended up being second best because of Brentfords track record. So we ended up signing the second best, turns out the second best rarely make the step up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RedRock said:

Said season’s ago we should have just tracked what Brentford were doing and just offer more to their targets at the very last minute. They knew what they were doing, we didn’t.

Quite how we managed to get everything wrong... recruitment, DNA, medics, fitness, management is quite staggering though - even for us.  
 

How the hell we rebuild from where we are I do not know. There’s virtually nothing  worth keeping bar the hard infrastructure.
 

Yes, we have the Academy, but we’ve always had that and it continually fails to live up to expectations. Vyner, Bakinson and a Semenyo ain’t  going to have a better opportunity to prove their worth more than the last season. Have any of those three really grasped that opportunity? They all seem more of the inconsistent same. 

  

What are your expectations? 

Bristol City's academy has produced players for the XI and made the club money beyond its operating costs.  

Success? 

  • Like 1
  • Flames 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, CyderInACan said:

Quite. And Bristol is consistently voted one of the best places to live in the UK. Bristol, as a place, has probably never been so popular, in fact. 

This old chestnut 🙄

Footballers don’t live in crap areas even if they play for a team in a ‘crappy’ town. There are nice places everywhere in the country, contrary to popular OTIB belief.  

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...