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Bringing younger players through


The Bard

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It may have happened out of necessity but it seems very likely that we are now pushing our youngsters through quickly.  It took Zac Vyner 4 years from his debut to get established in the first team.  Similarly Bobby Reid and also Joe Morrell never really got a proper chance.  I would hope that the likes of Conway, Scott and Britton are regulars a lot quicker that it took Zac.  Despite all the bs from Ashton and LJ, there was an aversion to trying younger players unless they were absolute stand outs (Kelly).

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I think it’s been totally out of necessity mate. 
Pearson even alluded to that in his interview over the weekend. 
We might have seen a couple of them play on the final game, like we have in the past (for example Dowling a couple of years ago), but it never would’ve happened to the extent it has had it not been for the injuries. 
You could even put a very good case of Vyner not having played anywhere near as many games this season were it not for the injuries. And Massengo. 
 

I don’t think there is the policy shift that you think. Holden & Pearson would’ve been exactly the same as LJ if they had the choice - only the very very best ones come in as early as these lads have done so this season. A fully fit squad and we’d probably have seen Scott for 35 minutes on the last day. 

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I'd say Conway and Edwards strike me as good options off the bench for minutes. 

Pring would be a good option at LB. Cundy's done quite well at Gills.

Scotts been better than most other options in the middle with his limited game times.

Can see a majority of the rest getting loans to L1/2 I.e. Jannah, Pearson, Bell, Towler, Britton, along others.

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It’s not the fault of the lads themselves but the results we got with too many of them playing told the story. We will see one or two of them, the rest need minutes in big boys football and the bonus is that due to playing at this level they should get the loans they need.

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Yep. Just to add, and as I mentioned on another thread the other day, next season I’d imagine most of the them we’d look to loan out. 
Personally I’d keep Scott here and give him 10-15 games. 
If we didn’t sign a striker of his ‘type’ I’d probably also look at Britton as a backup. 
Pring will be the backup left back. 
The rest will likely be loaned out or just in the squad when we’re short. 

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2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I think Bakinson will be with us too. Possibly Pring.

Pring will be 24 during next season.

No way can he be classed as a youngster now, he’s not much younger than O’Leary or Vyner & 3 and a half years older than Massengo!

Certainly at the stage where if we don’t think he’s worth a place in the first team squad then he shouldn’t be with us.

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Many people say this is the hardest leauge in europe.

The last 6 games, this division, is no place for youngsters when your struggling.

Our hands were tied with injurys, id go along with that.

Hopefully now, we can sign some decent pros, who can bring these players on, on the pitch.

Graham souness, once refused to play robbie fowler, in a team, because he said they were all crap, and it would do more harm then good.

Quite.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Yeah, I'm happy for our young uns to stay and play. 

It's the only way we'll ever know if they can or will (See Bakinson) 

Forever loaning out lost us Smith, Joe Morrell etc and wrecked Taylor Moore. 

Really, really, dont like the obsession around loaning out and those that have come through have done well by and large. 

Quite happy for them to push on next season. 

 

I agree. What if we had loaned out all the kids that Alan Dicks brought through. We'd have missed a seventeen year old Scottish hardcase developing his fighting skills and several others who grew up together and learned how to he a sum total that was better than the individuals.

PS. Norwich seem to get promoted a lot with several of their Academy lads in each side going up.

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14 hours ago, Harry said:

I think it’s been totally out of necessity mate. 
Pearson even alluded to that in his interview over the weekend. 
We might have seen a couple of them play on the final game, like we have in the past (for example Dowling a couple of years ago), but it never would’ve happened to the extent it has had it not been for the injuries. 
You could even put a very good case of Vyner not having played anywhere near as many games this season were it not for the injuries. And Massengo. 
 

I don’t think there is the policy shift that you think. Holden & Pearson would’ve been exactly the same as LJ if they had the choice - only the very very best ones come in as early as these lads have done so this season. A fully fit squad and we’d probably have seen Scott for 35 minutes on the last day. 

Totally get that but my point was that our pathway has been too slow and at times players have come to a halt in terms of their development due to a lack of opportunity. Too many overpaid wasters ahead of them. 

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37 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Yeah, I'm happy for our young uns to stay and play. 

It's the only way we'll ever know if they can or will (See Bakinson) 

Forever loaning out lost us Smith, Joe Morrell etc and wrecked Taylor Moore. 

Really, really, dont like the obsession around loaning out and those that have come through have done well by and large. 

Quite happy for them to push on next season. 

 

Agree, and why last summer I wrote my “one loan too many” article for Bristol Post.

It is not a criticism of Tinnion, who is eager to push the youngsters towards the first team.  Nor was it a dig of LJ who didn’t always give them a chance, because he’s under the pressure of trying to win games.

Injuries have forced our hands this season.  What I think is that the youngsters have come in and generally shown that they aren’t as far away as perhaps the club thought they were, but nor can you play 6 18/19 year olds either.

What I don’t particularly like, albeit it is horses for courses, is entrusting that final stage of development to another club, who might play a different system / style of play, different coaching methods, etc.  I do believe that it became a bit of a necessity because the first team squad was bloated, rather than because it was best for the player.

Hopefully we will see a trimmer 1st team senior bunch, allowing the youngsters to involved regularly anyway.  Training together at Failand will help that too.

So, an interesting summer ahead for our youngsters….they haven’t done themselves any harm have they!

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30 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I agree. What if we had loaned out all the kids that Alan Dicks brought through. We'd have missed a seventeen year old Scottish hardcase developing his fighting skills and several others who grew up together and learned how to he a sum total that was better than the individuals.

PS. Norwich seem to get promoted a lot with several of their Academy lads in each side going up.

What we have to do is identify the ones who we know can hack it at Championship level and keep them around the squad. The rest have to go out on loan to develop. It doesn't have to be season long loans if we think they are fairly close to where we want them to be. We have seen what happens this very season when you play TOO MANY of these youngsters at the same time. The Championship is a brutal and ruthless league and it does nothing whatsoever for a youngsters career, except completely ruin it possibly, to be finding out on a regular basis that they aren't YET ready for the standard they are playing.

It's not all about the club and the first team in the here and now. Young players develop at different rates and we have a duty to develop them properly. The Manager's job is to sift out who is ready right now and who isn't.

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27 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What we have to do is identify the ones who we know can hack it at Championship level and keep them around the squad. The rest have to go out on loan to develop. It doesn't have to be season long loans if we think they are fairly close to where we want them to be. We have seen what happens this very season when you play TOO MANY of these youngsters at the same time. The Championship is a brutal and ruthless league and it does nothing whatsoever for a youngsters career, except completely ruin it possibly, to be finding out on a regular basis that they aren't YET ready for the standard they are playing.

It's not all about the club and the first team in the here and now. Young players develop at different rates and we have a duty to develop them properly. The Manager's job is to sift out who is ready right now and who isn't.

Good points here. We cannot and never should be playing teams with five to seven kids in their first year or two as full time pros. So returning to the AD example, the young ones like Tainton and Ritchie got five or six games for each of two to four years as they developed. The senior pros looked after them. Also almost zero chance off the bench as only one sub.

Now, assuming we return to three subs next season, that widens the opportunities for young ones. I see a squad of 18 senior pros with the five or six best ones making up the squad of 24 and being a large percentage of our bench. Develop outside on loan is OK but we want them to be Bristol City developers not Oldham, Scunthorpe etc.

PS. I see Scott being a full member of our first team squad, the same as Gow and Merrick were because they were ready at 17/18 years.

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1 minute ago, cidered abroad said:

Good points here. We cannot and never should be playing teams with five to seven kids in their first year or two as full time pros. So returning to the AD example, the young ones like Tainton and Ritchie got five or six games for each of two to four years as they developed. The senior pros looked after them. Also almost zero chance off the bench as only one sub.

Now, assuming we return to three subs next season, that widens the opportunities for young ones. I see a squad of 18 senior pros with the five or six best ones making up the squad of 24 and being a large percentage of our bench. Develop outside on loan is OK but we want them to be Bristol City developers not Oldham, Scunthorpe etc.

Agree with that but I am more than happy for the ones who Nigel believes are 18 months away to go to places like Scunthorpe and Oldham for the simple fact that they will "man up". I know one or two on here will detest that term but I won't apologise for saying it, it really is a fundamental part of development, not every last thing in football comes from a power point, a course, out of a manual or is based on stats, basic attitude is a massive part of it. A really hard part of professional football that some youngsters find difficult to deal with is the fact that you have 10 blokes alongside you in the team who aren't there to piss about. They might be on a grand a week tops, they've got mortgages, they want their win bonus, they NEED their next contract etc. and so to them it really isn't a development kick around on a Saturday afternoon. They simply haven't got time for you to be sloppy or drop your head because your first two passes have gone out of play. They will not abide young players who don't really care because they think they are Jack The Lad. I agree wholeheartedly the loaning thing can be overdone and has been overdone in certain cases but it's not a bad thing for the slightly slower developing players imo.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree with that but I am more than happy for the ones who Nigel believes are 18 months away to go to places like Scunthorpe and Oldham for the simple fact that they will "man up". I know one or two on here will detest that term but I won't apologise for saying it, it really is a fundamental part of development, not every last thing in football comes from a power point, a course, out of a manual or is based on stats, basic attitude is a massive part of it. A really hard part of professional football that some youngsters find difficult to deal with is the fact that you have 10 blokes alongside you in the team who aren't there to piss about. They might be on a grand a week tops, they've got mortgages, they want their win bonus, they NEED their next contract etc. and so to them it really isn't a development kick around on a Saturday afternoon. They simply haven't got time for you to be sloppy or drop your head because your first two passes have gone out of play. They will not abide young players who don't really care because they think they are Jack The Lad. I agree wholeheartedly the loaning thing can be overdone and has been overdone in certain cases but it's not a bad thing for the slightly slower developing players imo.

Tis a very good point.  Even having to get used to waiting for things like the team to be announced abd find out you’re starting, sub, or not even in the 18/20, is something several players will never have experienced, as they’ve always been auto-picks.

All about getting the balance right, and there is no one-size fits all.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Agree with that but I am more than happy for the ones who Nigel believes are 18 months away to go to places like Scunthorpe and Oldham for the simple fact that they will "man up". I know one or two on here will detest that term but I won't apologise for saying it, it really is a fundamental part of development, not every last thing in football comes from a power point, a course, out of a manual or is based on stats, basic attitude is a massive part of it. A really hard part of professional football that some youngsters find difficult to deal with is the fact that you have 10 blokes alongside you in the team who aren't there to piss about. They might be on a grand a week tops, they've got mortgages, they want their win bonus, they NEED their next contract etc. and so to them it really isn't a development kick around on a Saturday afternoon. They simply haven't got time for you to be sloppy or drop your head because your first two passes have gone out of play. They will not abide young players who don't really care because they think they are Jack The Lad. I agree wholeheartedly the loaning thing can be overdone and has been overdone in certain cases but it's not a bad thing for the slightly slower developing players imo.

Totally agree with everything you say.

This is why BT has the job he has.

The Club have realised there is a gap between Academy level and Championship level. Players need to be loaned out to get the experience you point out. Then if they make the grade...put into our squad.

The downside...if you run a small squad, and have many injuries like this season, you need a call back option.

We've got some cracking youngsters...just need that continual experience to make the step up.

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12 minutes ago, petehinton said:

 that just shows how little they’re used across the league. Conway in the top 20 after playing 2 and a bit games ?

Yep, the Champ is not a young man’s game….and in Han’s case, you don’t see any true CMs in the list with more than a few minutes.

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Covering what others have said but I think:

a) Players like Pring and Cundy have had successful League One loans and are now 23 or 24. There is nothing else we can do with them to get them more ready than they are now. Either we think they deserve a chance next season or we move them on. I hope the former but, if not, I'd rather sell than loan on the pretence they're somehow going to get more ready than they are now are. 

b) Scott, Britton and Conway might have got their chance through injury but have done enough to at least deserve assessment pre-season.

c) Towler, Pearson, Janneh and Edwards did enough to show they have potential but aren't quite there yet. I'd loan them out

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18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

….and of course, there is no call-back outside the windows (unless they are on a NL loan).

It's probably the biggest headache we'll have next season...who to loan out and who to keep...' just in case'. 

 

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6 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's probably the biggest headache we'll have next season...who to loan out and who to keep...' just in case'. 

 

With a trimmer squad, I think it makes it slightly easier….i.e. keep them around.

Also some benefits in having them playing together in the u23s to build more familiarity, hop across to first team training (if not already), etc.

 

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

With a trimmer squad, I think it makes it slightly easier….i.e. keep them around.

Also some benefits in having them playing together in the u23s to build more familiarity, hop across to first team training (if not already), etc.

 

That was my initial thought too... especially with a smaller squad. 

The conversations between BT and NP will be interesting.

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

With a trimmer squad, I think it makes it slightly easier….i.e. keep them around.

Also some benefits in having them playing together in the u23s to build more familiarity, hop across to first team training (if not already), etc.

 

I agree, think the most sensible thing to do is have a smaller squad of senior players that's then supplemented by younger players. With covid affecting finances and the current state of the squad I hope we focus on quality over quantity with recruitment this summer, it'll put us in a better position and hopefully mean there's still opportunities for those in the u23s.

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