Bringing younger players through

[KegCity]

57 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

 

Massengo in the Bobby Reid role would be majestic tbh... 

 

As a forward? Or a similar type of midfielder?

[SecretSam]

5 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Yeah, I'm happy for our young uns to stay and play. 

It's the only way we'll ever know if they can or will (See Bakinson) 

Forever loaning out lost us Smith, Joe Morrell etc and wrecked Taylor Moore. 

Really, really, dont like the obsession around loaning out and those that have come through have done well by and large. 

Quite happy for them to push on next season. 

 

Except they WON'T play, not when everyone's back fit.

In older days, there was a Reserve league, where they got competitive games against men. That's not there any more. Loans have replaced it.

[SecretSam]

5 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I agree. What if we had loaned out all the kids that Alan Dicks brought through. We'd have missed a seventeen year old Scottish hardcase developing his fighting skills and several others who grew up together and learned how to he a sum total that was better than the individuals.

PS. Norwich seem to get promoted a lot with several of their Academy lads in each side going up.

Sorry, but we are talking about 45 years ago. Different world then. Young players were not brought in by bigger clubs the way they are now, they were left to mature. And squads were smaller so if you were first team, you played, 40+ times a season if fit. Or, as per my other post, you were in the Combination, playing reserve football at a high standard, against regular first team players (like a "B" team). 

Players like Gow who made it at a young age were just as unusual then as they are now.

Oh, and final point - attrition was much higher. "Career-ending injuries" like ACLs are now treatable. It's likely that Cheesley would have come back successfully. Players can keep going until their early to mid-30s.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Some interesting discussions since this morning. 

Massengo in the Bobby Reid role would be majestic tbh... 

This one has always puzzled me.

According to his mother (Yes, I know!), H-NM was brought up playing as a forward midfield player, very much, as you mention, in the Bobby Reid type role.

Obviously, I acknowledge that our head coaches/managers see him in training every day and, of course, are far more knowledgeable than me and, dare I say it, than you and H-NM's mother, but, notwithstanding that he has yet to score or even have that many shots on target (bar his debut?), I have often wondered why City have not given him a chance in a more advanced role.  

[cidered abroad]

30 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Sorry, but we are talking about 45 years ago. Different world then. Young players were not brought in by bigger clubs the way they are now, they were left to mature. And squads were smaller so if you were first team, you played, 40+ times a season if fit. Or, as per my other post, you were in the Combination, playing reserve football at a high standard, against regular first team players (like a "B" team). 

Players like Gow who made it at a young age were just as unusual then as they are now.

Oh, and final point - attrition was much higher. "Career-ending injuries" like ACLs are now treatable. It's likely that Cheesley would have come back successfully. Players can keep going until their early to mid-30s.

The comment about Gow is so true.

In my 70 years, those who stood out and made it with City at 16 to 18 are counted on one or two hands. Off the top without referring to books, Atyeo, an amateur at 19, Derrick, Gow, Merrick, Doherty?, Lita? and I'm struggling for more.

[PHILINFRANCE]

5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

The comment about Gow is so true.

In my 70 years, those who stood out and made it with City at 16 to 18 are counted on one or two hands. Off the top without referring to books, Atyeo, an amateur at 19, Derrick, Gow, Merrick, Doherty?, Lita? and I'm struggling for more.

Gary Collier, Chris Garland?

[BrizzleRed]

5 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Gary Collier, Chris Garland?

Could also add Kevin Mabbutt to that list.

 

[BrizzleRed]

I still think there’s some wisdom in the old saying, ‘if you’re good enough, you’re old enough’.

I know players are much fitter these days and some younger players need longer to physically mature and bulk out, but I  feel we tend to be over cautious.  

If they haven’t shown some real promise by the end of their teens, maybe we should just wish them well and let them search out a career at a lower level, rather than keep paying them to just play for another club, only for us to release them at the end of their contract.

I appreciate it would be frustrating if we released a late developing gem, but we do seem to regularly hang on to youngsters over-long, before releasing them, to ultimately disappear into virtual obscurity anyway.

I wonder how many of our young players would have made debuts this year without our injury crisis and appalling form.  They’ve been thrown in the deep end and haven’t done too badly have they, particularly given the crap they’ve been playing alongside.  

Maybe this will encourage us to give the kids more of a chance to shine in the future.
 

[cidered abroad]

23 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

That tenacious harrying and pressing type. Massengo has got a shot on him, he can clearly do that role and there's a lot there to suggest that he is capable of it

Says who?  If 'everyone' is fit you're basically saying that there's no career pathway. Rendering the youth set up completely pointless.

We've shown this season that you can play young players and begin that integration. It was always thus,but we got promoted and completely seemed to lose track of that as the 5 Pillars got buried. 

Without playing players in the first team, there's absolutely no way of knowing if they will ever be any good, falling into the loan trap helps noone ultimately as we are left with no way for players to develop and are back to buying shite because theyve played elsewhere.

It's not rocket science. 

 

Agreed, I have no idea, why he's not been tried in that role, deffo has the legs and guile and presence of mind for it..

There's loads who have made it from youth and not been on loan etc Matt Hill. Danny Coles, Skuse, Carey etc, we just dont recognise it, right up to the likes of Lloyd Kelly.  I think it's a blind spot we have, as there's loads who have, had decent first team appearances and the rest without being farmed away

Iirc correctly it was GJ pissing about with the likes of Jennison Myrie- Williams  (needing more first team experience) despite playing 25 in our prior promotion season that's embedded the 'must loan' narrative. Which is a shame tbh

Reference your paragraph "There's loads" etc. Correct, all those you mention and plenty more have made it from our Youth/Academy set up. And your mention of Gary Johnson tells me like father, like son.

I was thinking specifically of the very young who made it to be first team regulars by eighteen years. These are the special ones who didn't need a loan even if one was available.

I sense that you an a few others believe that the loan system is used as a cop out for young blood instead of remaining within the club and getting minutes as late subs or cover for multi injury times.

[SecretSam]

15 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Says who?  If 'everyone' is fit you're basically saying that there's no career pathway. Rendering the youth set up completely pointless.

Says the manager: he actually said with everyone fit, these kids probably wouldn't have got into the first team. 

As for "Career pathway", it's not different at City than at most clubs.

[SecretSam]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

'probably'

And we can and should change that pathway

You tell him, he's bigger than me

[Lanterne Rouge]

I still think the one that got away will turn out to be Jonny Smith. We must have known we were selling Eliasson so he should have been in the squad this season.

[firstdivision]

On 10/05/2021 at 18:22, SecretSam said:

For all that they got minutes, most of them aren't ready. Scott, maybe.

Totally agree.  
He might have a reasonable career but the euphoria over young Towler, for example, was laughable. Not his fault at all but he was nowhere close to ready. Couldn’t help noticing that he didn’t play in the last part of the season, despite the side turning into the under 5s.