Summer Rebuild - Too Much to Do?

[ralphindevon]

There’s a lot of pre season to go but at the moment I’d take another 19th place if offered.

Especially as last seasons 19th felt like a 22nd and next seasons could feel like good progress 

[havanatopia]

Ooh dear Ralph that's a really depressing acceptance level.

We have seen the likes of Mick Mc and Neil W come in to Cardiff and Boro respectively and much earlier in the season and had a significant impact in a very short space of time.

Nigel will have a close season to bring in 5 or 6 players and I have no doubt his ability to bring in very decent ones at that.

With his undoubted and proven skills he will be getting his P45 long before the end of next season if we are loitering around the relegation spots. We won't be.

I don't do predictions but he is going to have a huge and positive impact on next season; consider the fairly obvious fact that we all know; City have been on the slide for years, not just two according to the BP. Its halted. You only need a few key tweaks, clearing out the dross and clever, savvy coaching and you add the 5% which is more than enough to head in the correct direction. If you get to 10% uplift in performance you are in the top 10. Anything higher than that and you are in promotion form. Hard? of course. Nothing is easy. Having fans on his side is another 2%.

Bit too many percentages but hopefully you get my points.

 

[RobintheRed Red]

2 hours ago, Top Robin said:

Can't believe you want to keep Paterson!

Nah one good game in five on the treatment table for ten .

[YGBjammy]

Lots to do yes but every single appointment has to be seen as the opportunity for an upgrade. The rebuild will take a while to get people in, and then a while to bed-in and start to work well together. Hard work but what an opportunity we have, and we finally have an experienced manager to help us do it.

[Pezo]

Havana I appreciate your optimistic outlook but this season is still raw in the memory. I see no evidence yet that we are going to solve our problems and with the current squad (which we almost certainly won't be starting the campaign with) looks like a relegation squad.

If we sign 8 players the likelyhood is that 4 will fit in with the other 4 struggling - injuries, moving, building relationships all cause issues. 4 players should be enough to turn this squad into a bottom half/midtable team but I don't expect anything more than that unless something incredible happens. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I want to know what system Nige plans on using.

Gregor suggested the 343 the 23s went with today might indicate that's how Nige wants to go with the first team. 

I disagree with that. You surely don't sign Danny Simpson as a wing back.

I honestly think Gregor was filling words….the u23s have played back 3 most of the season (to follow Holden’s 352 initially).

As it stands we don’t how NP will set us up.  My gut feel (might be completely wrong) is that it will be a back 4 based system.

But time will tell over the summer.

[bcdc]

4 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

You only have to look at Forest last season, what looked a fantastic load of signings and really strong squad, but took a long time to gel and I think we will be the same. Sure fans will be getting restless by xmas, but have total faith in NP to get it right long term

And to put a further gloss on what you’re saying, Forest only finished one point ahead of us, so it’s not like they resolved their problems and went steaming ahead

[GrahamC]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I honestly think Gregor was filling words….the u23s have played back 3 most of the season (to follow Holden’s 352 initially).

As it stands we don’t how NP will set us up.  My gut feel (might be completely wrong) is that it will be a back 4 based system.

But time will tell over the summer.

My hunch would be a back four as well.

Certainly today’s announcement which has seen Hunt, Sessegnon, Rowe, Baker & Mariappa all depart, with Mawson going back earlier, highlights just how few defenders we have left.

In experience terms we now only have Kalas, Simpson, Vyner, Dasilva & Moore, with doubts over the last of these.

Pring might be a possibility as cover but has no Championship experience & minimal League One experience. Cundy is also in the same boat.

If Vyner is seen as a RB we need 2 more centre backs & depending on Pring, possibly another LB.

[havanatopia]

39 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Havana I appreciate your optimistic outlook but this season is still raw in the memory. I see no evidence yet that we are going to solve our problems and with the current squad (which we almost certainly won't be starting the campaign with) looks like a relegation squad.

If we sign 8 players the likelyhood is that 4 will fit in with the other 4 struggling - injuries, moving, building relationships all cause issues. 4 players should be enough to turn this squad into a bottom half/midtable team but I don't expect anything more than that unless something incredible happens. 

I think it is fair to say that before Lee Johnson's final season started going pete tong and, after the brilliant start by Dean Holden, few of us would contemplate calling this squad of relegation standard. The squad more than held their own. The slide, before and after Dean, is not attributable to what we mostly called a decent squad becoming suddenly one of relegation fodder. However, that is exactly what you are saying.

I don't feel I need to be an optimist to suggest we will do far better next season given all the movements out and in to this club.

Time always tells but to suggest we will be mid table, at best, would be a failure by NP and he knows that better than anyone.

[bpexile]

3 hours ago, Superjack said:

Nah. 

Mushroom, me.

Don't put yourself down, you know what they feed mushrooms on don't you 

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Superjack said:

Nah. 

Mushroom, me.

Bet your a fun guy!

[Nicki's soulmate]

I'm already looking to next season, new(ish) team, sun shining, pre match pubbing, too optimistic I know, but **** it

[Superjack]

39 minutes ago, bpexile said:

Don't put yourself down, you know what they feed mushrooms on don't you 

Yes.

And to be fair, that's probably most of us.

13 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Bet your a fun guy!

I am, actually.

[Pezo]

52 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

I think it is fair to say that before Lee Johnson's final season started going pete tong and, after the brilliant start by Dean Holden, few of us would contemplate calling this squad of relegation standard. The squad more than held their own. The slide, before and after Dean, is not attributable to what we mostly called a decent squad becoming suddenly one of relegation fodder. However, that is exactly what you are saying.

I don't feel I need to be an optimist to suggest we will do far better next season given all the movements out and in to this club.

Time always tells but to suggest we will be mid table, at best, would be a failure by NP and he knows that better than anyone.

Sorry but the team we have right now would finish bottom, it is weaker and more unbalanced than the team that's been bottom of the form table for the last 30 games (and not by a small margin). 

DH squad wasn't relegation standard - it included Fam, Baker, Mawson, Hunt and Patterson - all players that would keep you in this league, unfortunately our goal is to get out of this league in the correct direction.

We need a minimum of 5 top quality championship players plus loans to challenge for the playoffs which will be tough to do. We may get 4 which by my estimate would put us about midtable - bare in mind one would have to be a right back and one would have to be a left sided winger just to make a balanced team let alone squad, then we need quality in midfield and defender just to make sure we don't ship more goals than we score, then we can think about bring in a striker to accompany our other striking options.

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Sorry but the team we have right now would finish bottom, it is weaker and more unbalanced than the team that's been bottom of the form table for the last 30 games (and not by a small margin). 

DH squad wasn't relegation standard - it included Fam, Baker, Mawson, Hunt and Patterson - all players that would keep you in this league, unfortunately our goal is to get out of this league in the correct direction.

We need a minimum of 5 top quality championship players plus loans to challenge for the playoffs which will be tough to do. We may get 4 which by my estimate would put us about midtable - bare in mind one would have to be a right back and one would have to be a left sided winger just to make a balanced team let alone squad, then we need quality in midfield and defender just to make sure we don't ship more goals than we score, then we can think about bring in a striker to accompany our other striking options.

In a one off game, is:

Bentley

Simpson / Vyner / Kalas / Dasilva

Williams / Massengo

Semenyo / Weimann / O’Dowda 

Wells

as bad as the second half of the season team, with O’Leary, Moore, Pring, Bakinson, Martin, Nagy, Palmer (assume back to 7 subs) on the bench.

It is something to start from.

For example add Ostigard at CB, push Vyner to RB, Matt Crooks (Rotherham) or Lewis O’Brien (Huddersfield) into midfield and can quickly look a much better squad.

 

[Bas's perfect hattrick]

8 hours ago, Coppello said:

With the retained list being released today, I've seen a lot of comments about how pleasing it is to have a clear out and it is going to be an exciting summer. Over the past 20 years (probably significantly further back than that), we've had limited success in our appointment of personnel in key roles like the Manager, Chief Executive or people within the recruitment team. We've struggled to make individual appointments in the past but this summer we need to have a revolution. Am I the only person who is a little apprehensive of this overhaul? 

Today we've made a positive step in recruiting a new CEO but we also need a Director of Football or Head of Recruitment to push on with our work in the transfer market. The backroom team will need to quickly work on objectives, work with Pearson on a recruitment strategy, formulate a budget, identify targets and start negotiating with clubs and the player's agents. Whilst there is half a recruitment team in situ, their work could be torn up when the new backroom staff are appointed. 

Although our squad currently play like 11 strangers who have never met and cannot speak the same language, any players we bring in are going to need time to gel. If we sign 7 or 8 players, it could take a while for them to settle. Based on our performances in the second half of the season, all of these signings are going to have to be significantly better than the players we currently have contracted if we want to avoid flirting with relegation. I do wonder if it was wise to let stronger personalities such as Paterson go without even offering him a contract? It has been a bit of a running joke on OTIB about signing players of the right 'DNA' but are we starting to see the effects of signing bad eggs? From the player's social media posts several years ago, it was clear to see that there was a contingent of players who were best mates but from my limited presence on social media it hasn't felt like this for quite a while.  

It is exciting to have a clear out but I don't think we've ever had a complete overhaul like this. Almost all of the appointments need to be right in order to stop the club from regressing. We've got a lot to do and need to get a wriggle on or I'll be the first to paint Richard Gould on my bedsheets to hang outside Ashton Gate. If he gets it right, my preference will change from Thatchers Haze to Gauld.

No matter what happens, you should get yourself off the thatchers haze

[Red Skin]

8 hours ago, Coppello said:

With the retained list being released today

What's that you say?  Even the retained list are being released?  We'll have no players left at this rate!!

Is this too much to do?  All depends on your expectations.  If we have a decent spine, a way of playing, some exciting football, and some young ones playing then I'll be happy.  

[Pezo]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In a one off game, is:

Bentley

Simpson / Vyner / Kalas / Dasilva

Williams / Massengo

Semenyo / Weimann / O’Dowda 

Wells

as bad as the second half of the season team, with O’Leary, Moore, Pring, Bakinson, Martin, Nagy, Palmer (assume back to 7 subs) on the bench.

It is something to start from.

For example add Ostigard at CB, push Vyner to RB, Matt Crooks (Rotherham) or Lewis O’Brien (Huddersfield) into midfield and can quickly look a much better squad.

 

Vyner and Kalas is going to ship goals, semenyo, Weiman, O'dowda and Wells will get us 20 goals in total if we're lucky going on our previous campaigns with them. 

It can look better but Ostigard would I assume be on loan and then I'm not sure how rotherham and Huddersfield players get us to the top of the league.

[redpole]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I honestly think Gregor was filling words….the u23s have played back 3 most of the season (to follow Holden’s 352 initially).

As it stands we don’t how NP will set us up.  My gut feel (might be completely wrong) is that it will be a back 4 based system.

But time will tell over the summer.

Anyway city lined up 343 yesterday. So he was wrong there to start with. 

 

[Olé]

13 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Mid table will be seen as acceptable next season, Pearson has already said it won't be a 1 season fix

I'm not being alarmist but I would honestly be happy just to stay up next season. Like most people I was fairly relaxed about the fact so many players are being let go after performances last season, but I've had a nagging doubt that what we'll need to do before next season is unprecedented, and I've woken up this morning feeling quite alarmed by the prospect.

We have 5 truly senior outfield players left (Kalas, Wells, Martin, Nagy, Williams) when I think about who is going to be the influencers in the dressing room in the same way Korey, Pack, Flint etc were. I don't think of any as big personalities nor as people who have bonded even among themselves (all quite independent socially as @Coppello says in the OP).

I exclude all the younger players as I just don't think you can build a reliable culture around them - it needs to be led by the people you want everyone to look up to. So we have literally no cohesion at all in our squad (or "family feeling" as Paterson called it) and we're hoping to recruit an entire new squad and make that happen in a couple of months. Jesus FC.

Does anyone have examples of another club where that's happened? I can speak only to Portuguese football where player turnover (especially at smaller clubs) is almost 100% because the squad is all loaned in on 1 year deals from the big clubs, and volatility in league position is frightening. Clubs each season are unknown quantities and many just implode.

If we have a team of strangers with no affinity for one another, with a huge pressure to bond and with the retained players feeling anxious and upset about those who have gone, this could go very badly. Cotterill's team wasn't created overnight. If we can progress some young players next season then just stabilising the squad and staying up will be a relief.

[tin]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I honestly think Gregor was filling words….the u23s have played back 3 most of the season (to follow Holden’s 352 initially).

As it stands we don’t how NP will set us up.  My gut feel (might be completely wrong) is that it will be a back 4 based system.

But time will tell over the summer.

Spot on, Dave. I expect NP to recruit at least one winger or wide forward to either play 4231 or 442. 

9 hours ago, GrahamC said:

My hunch would be a back four as well.

Certainly today’s announcement which has seen Hunt, Sessegnon, Rowe, Baker & Mariappa all depart, with Mawson going back earlier, highlights just how few defenders we have left.

In experience terms we now only have Kalas, Simpson, Vyner, Dasilva & Moore, with doubts over the last of these.

Pring might be a possibility as cover but has no Championship experience & minimal League One experience. Cundy is also in the same boat.

If Vyner is seen as a RB we need 2 more centre backs & depending on Pring, possibly another LB.

The lack of experience throughout the squad is why Pearson is looking to add proven players this summer. Matty James would be a good start.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Cundy step up next term. Much like Walsh, he’s displayed the sort of L1 form that would likely attract our attention if he wasn’t already ours. 

Ostigård plus one other (Whatmough?) would be a decent signing.

[Ronnie]

If he can sign players, coach and motivate them as well as he talks we will be fine.

[harvey54]

I think his priority will be a leader on the pitch. Someone who's been there and done it. Someone to shout and cajole and encourage. Someone who we've been crying out for for too long. We need leadership on the pitch as much as off it. 

[Lew-T]

18 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I thought that league one side was pretty much built overnight. 

From the title winning 11 we only already had Fielding, Flint, Williams, Bryan and Pack.

I expect less signings over the next season than what Cotts made for us back then. 11 signings he made over the whole 14/15 season.

Was just about to say this. Didn’t we bring in Freeman, Ayling, Smith, Wilbraham, W Elliot, Little, Agard in one hit?

The point is we can build nicely overnight, but our recruitment needs to be spot on like the Summer of 2014. No more duds... Quality over quantity.

We can’t afford to.

[Robbored]

A more upbeat take on what Nige has to do this summer - he will be pretty much starting from scratch something he did when he took over at Leicester so this rebuild will not be a new experience  for him.

More good news is that he’s already seen what he needs in terms of players and knows  that strengthening defensively will be an absolute priority. It would be no surprise to see a brand new defensive line up come August. Who those players will depends on who is available and how much wriggle room he’ll have in terms of finances. He may well be looking to move Kalas on to help facilitate that.

With Weimann and Williams fully fit again the midfield will look very different and if Williams is a useful as his reputation suggests then those two along with Massengo could form a decent middle three.

Up top. Martin will be available again along with Semenyo and Wells and with a more creative midfield goalscoring should much healthier than the last dismal campaign.

I’m only including players already at the club and as yet none of know what players Nige may bring in so that remains an unknown..............

All that said, like all managers Nige will need time to rebuild and none of us should expect impressive performances and positive results from the off. Patience will be required........

[ralphindevon]

11 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Ooh dear Ralph that's a really depressing acceptance level.

We have seen the likes of Mick Mc and Neil W come in to Cardiff and Boro respectively and much earlier in the season and had a significant impact in a very short space of time.

Nigel will have a close season to bring in 5 or 6 players and I have no doubt his ability to bring in very decent ones at that.

With his undoubted and proven skills he will be getting his P45 long before the end of next season if we are loitering around the relegation spots. We won't be.

I don't do predictions but he is going to have a huge and positive impact on next season; consider the fairly obvious fact that we all know; City have been on the slide for years, not just two according to the BP. Its halted. You only need a few key tweaks, clearing out the dross and clever, savvy coaching and you add the 5% which is more than enough to head in the correct direction. If you get to 10% uplift in performance you are in the top 10. Anything higher than that and you are in promotion form. Hard? of course. Nothing is easy. Having fans on his side is another 2%.

Bit too many percentages but hopefully you get my points.

 

As I said, there’s a long way to go before the season starts and I’m prepared for my optimism to increase as the summer goes on.

At the moment however, I’m a tad worried 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

13 hours ago, archie andrews said:

Yeah..... At 5000/1......

I will have at tenner at those odds 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, tin said:

Spot on, Dave. I expect NP to recruit at least one winger or wide forward to either play 4231 or 442. 

The lack of experience throughout the squad is why Pearson is looking to add proven players this summer. Matty James would be a good start.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Cundy step up next term. Much like Walsh, he’s displayed the sort of L1 form that would likely attract our attention if he wasn’t already ours. 

Ostigård plus one other (Whatmough?) would be a decent signing.

Coventry seem pretty convinced James will stay there but your general point is spot on.

I expect us to bring in an experienced central defender & midfielder, even if it isn’t James.

[downendcity]

It’s a double edged sword if ever there was one.

On the one hand it is a big ask to rebuild so much of the squad and team in just one window, and especially so against the background of the financial impact of the pandemic. On the other hand, and with hindsight, the last few months seem to be the culmination of a creeping cancer through the club, so clearing out the CEO, medical team and the out of contract players ( most of whom appear to have been winding down the clock for months anyway) means the new manager will never have a better chance to instil exactly what he wants in the club.

Yes, Ashton’s almost negligent management of players contracts has forced the club’s hand somewhat, but that could be a blessing in disguise as  if not now then when?

[JoeAman08]

14 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

What surprises me is any body expecting any serious form or run promotion in the period of the next three years. This is team building time. Then let's see how we go in NP defined full on contract 

COYR

Not sure anyone is expecting it but it does happen often enough. Huddersfield hired Wagner midway through a season. We beat them 4-1 towards the end of the season and they finished quite low. The next season they were promoted. Barnsley lasts season scraped through and this season on the playoffs. Fulham were nearly relegated our first season back in championship. Finished in playoffs season after. Warnock took over a poor Cardiff side and got them promoted the next season. Brighton were low the season we were promoted to championship. They finished 3rd the next season. 

 

These are all examples since the 14/15 season. It isn’t rare at all. I think you notice a pattern here as well. They all hired top managers that had good CVs with the exception of Barnsley(idk their manager’s CV it could be great). NP has a track record of good things. I don’t expect playoffs next season. Hell I don’t really expect top half but it has been done before and will be done again.