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VAR


The Bard

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39 minutes ago, BetterRedthenBlue said:

To me VAR should only be used if a clear and obvious error has occurred. 

Player slightly offside for a goal but linesman didn't flag it. Goal stands. 

Player handles it in the buildup to a goal but it was missed by the referee. VAR intervenes.

That was what they said it was going to do initially (clear and obvious errors like Henry v Ireland for example) which is what I think most people would have accepted. What has happened is that for really tight offsides they are now spending minutes drawing lines etc which I don't think 99% of people want to see and doesn't add any value to the game but does kill the emotion of a goal for fans causing resentment etc.

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10 minutes ago, The Bard said:

It's guidance not rules.  

It’s in the laws of the game, the word law would be an indicator. The laws were written to be black and white, they’ve now greyed it and blurred the laws by adding the ‘it’s not handball if….’

its been applied correctly and it’s the rule where the issue is if you keep using VAR, you have a ton of goals ruled out for the tiniest touch which there was outcry about from fans and pundits or you have this where some stuff is let go. 

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47 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

It’s in the laws of the game, the word law would be an indicator. The laws were written to be black and white, they’ve now greyed it and blurred the laws by adding the ‘it’s not handball if….’

its been applied correctly and it’s the rule where the issue is if you keep using VAR, you have a ton of goals ruled out for the tiniest touch which there was outcry about from fans and pundits or you have this where some stuff is let go. 

The laws are the laws, the problems can come with interpretation . I've lost count of the times I said I can see why he gave it, but I don't agree. Yesterday Vardy's 2nd Pen, he did really well to fool the Ref. To me it looks like he's the one that initiates arm pulling, when I first saw it I said no Pen. The Stockley Mafia decided otherwise. It can be difficult when players go down at the slightest touch, because when they watch it in super slo-mo you can see that touch and they seem scared to over rule. They need to rethink several rules, but that might be bringing logic into it.

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54 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

That was what they said it was going to do initially (clear and obvious errors like Henry v Ireland for example) which is what I think most people would have accepted. What has happened is that for really tight offsides they are now spending minutes drawing lines etc which I don't think 99% of people want to see and doesn't add any value to the game but does kill the emotion of a goal for fans causing resentment etc.

There needs to be human error for me. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes games can be won or lost on a referee mistake, which to me anyway improves the game. I'd much rather lose to a referee decision whereby a player is offside (not clearly) but its not been flagged then to losing because VAR has ruled Nahki Wells' little toe was offside. 

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10 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The laws are the laws, the problems can come with interpretation . I've lost count of the times I said I can see why he gave it, but I don't agree. Yesterday Vardy's 2nd Pen, he did really well to fool the Ref. To me it looks like he's the one that initiates arm pulling, when I first saw it I said no Pen. The Stockley Mafia decided otherwise. It can be difficult when players go down at the slightest touch, because when they watch it in super slo-mo you can see that touch and they seem scared to over rule. They need to rethink several rules, but that might be bringing logic into it.

The vardy 2nd one the ref gave originally and VAR didn’t have conclusive evidence to overturn 

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7 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

The vardy 2nd one the ref gave originally and VAR didn’t have conclusive evidence to overturn 

This is where it gets annoying/difficult. Just one look and I could see what Vardy did, they should have got the Ref to look. 

My problem is when decisions are made from VAR, it's a different Ref making the decisions and that means a different perspective and interpretation. 

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20 hours ago, sephjnr said:

Let's ask LCFC fans if they wanted Bale's first to count today.

Let's consult fans on each decision?

5 hours ago, The Bard said:

Laws in Rugby Union.  Rules in football as my dad always tells me.  Difference is subtle but real.  Enforce the law, apply the rules.  Football referees are judges, Rugby referees Police.

This situation is a matter or applying the handball rule in light of guidance about the use of VAR.  It has come up with an absolutely perverse decision in one of the key games of the season resulting in the London based establishment club being in the Champions League at the expense of the provincial club.  

It's laws in football.

It applied the handball as it's supposed to be applied.

3 hours ago, BetterRedthenBlue said:

To me VAR should only be used if a clear and obvious error has occurred. 

Player slightly offside for a goal but linesman didn't flag it. Goal stands. 

Player handles it in the buildup to a goal but it was missed by the referee. VAR intervenes.

What if the linesman flags but the player was clear and obviously onside?

The reason they keep their flag down is to allow VAR to make the decision.

Handball, infact most of the laws are still by and large about interpretation. A foul to one person is a great tackle to another etc.

VAR doesn't solve a problem because you are still down to the judgement of a human and that can vary game to game. The difference is they now get 100 replays so we think they should get the "right" decision, but 95% of the time you wouldn't get full agreement on what the "right" decision is

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4 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

What if the linesman flags but the player was clear and obviously onside?

The reason they keep their flag down is to allow VAR to make the decision.

Handball, infact most of the laws are still by and large about interpretation. A foul to one person is a great tackle to another etc.

VAR doesn't solve a problem because you are still down to the judgement of a human and that can vary game to game. The difference is they now get 100 replays so we think they should get the "right" decision, but 95% of the time you wouldn't get full agreement on what the "right" decision is

Let's say from a free kick a player is onside and scores that is a clear and obvious error and VAR should intervene. 

If a ball is played in behind and the linesman flags for offside even though the player is onside I'd give a free kick for offside. 

I still feel like human error needs to be in the game otherwise its going to get too slow if VAR interrupts everything. 

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8 hours ago, sephjnr said:

So why do we never hear of disciplinary judgements for these people with the same transparency as we do for players?

We do hear of referees getting demoted occasionally. Referees also disappear down the leagues at the end of seasons. Referees are marked and assessed at ‘every game’ in all the leagues as far down as the National league. These marks and assessments are obviously kept in house. 
But let’s be realistic here, the only people who go on the pitch to cheat, intimidate, and con people, are the players. 

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17 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

We do hear of referees getting demoted occasionally. Referees also disappear down the leagues at the end of seasons. Referees are marked and assessed at ‘every game’ in all the leagues as far down as the National league. These marks and assessments are obviously kept in house. 
But let’s be realistic here, the only people who go on the pitch to cheat, intimidate, and con people, are the players. 

A mate of mine used to run the line at AG fairly frequently and was doing the Boro game where he missed the most blatant handball by one of their players in front of the Atyeo you will ever see which would have been a pen to us. He was demoted back to Conference South as a result and decided it wasn`t worth trying to make it back up so packed it in.

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16 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

The laws are the laws, the problems can come with interpretation . I've lost count of the times I said I can see why he gave it, but I don't agree. Yesterday Vardy's 2nd Pen, he did really well to fool the Ref. To me it looks like he's the one that initiates arm pulling, when I first saw it I said no Pen. The Stockley Mafia decided otherwise. It can be difficult when players go down at the slightest touch, because when they watch it in super slo-mo you can see that touch and they seem scared to over rule. They need to rethink several rules, but that might be bringing logic into it.

No, they need the players to stop cheating and conning the officials.

We need managers to tell their own players to stop cheating.

If players stop cheating, you don’t get these problems in the first place.

It feels that a lot of people are quite willing to watch players cheat, so they can take their own frustration out on the officials.

I’m amazed we don’t have people queuing up to be referees, as we have so many experts on this, and other forums!.

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15 hours ago, BetterRedthenBlue said:

Let's say from a free kick a player is onside and scores that is a clear and obvious error and VAR should intervene. 

If a ball is played in behind and the linesman flags for offside even though the player is onside I'd give a free kick for offside. 

I still feel like human error needs to be in the game otherwise its going to get too slow if VAR interrupts everything. 

You just said VAR should be used if a clear and obvious error is made. Make your mind up?

I don't fully disagree with you though, I was on the fence about VAR (mainly because it doesn't impact City yet) but having been at the FA Cup final my mind was made up. It was far too long from goal going in to decision being made if you are in the ground. It's cruel and it's not what we want to see in football stadiums, don't really give a monkeys what the viewer at home experiences.

I wonder what that adrenaline and come down is like for a player and what affect it has on the rest of the game? I wonder if that's been discussed by the law makers?

It must be such an unbelievable rush to think you've scored such a vital goal and a relief to have saved the game. To then find out it's been ruled out must be really hard to come back from. It's probably as much a sucker punch as actually conceding a goal, if not more. Whereas imagine that goal doesn't go in but it's cleared off the line - the team still has momentum and continues to attack believing they've still got a chance. As soon as that goal was ruled out the players were visibly deflated and couldn't pick themselves back up for the last 3-4 minutes. The momentum they'd built in the last 10 minutes was gone and the game was basically over after that decision.

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2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

No, they need the players to stop cheating and conning the officials.

We need managers to tell their own players to stop cheating.

If players stop cheating, you don’t get these problems in the first place.

It feels that a lot of people are quite willing to watch players cheat, so they can take their own frustration out on the officials.

I’m amazed we don’t have people queuing up to be referees, as we have so many experts on this, and other forums!.

They do need to rethink rule. 
Handball is an arbitrary line that noone know where exactly it is.
Offside is using tech that isn't good enough for the way they use it.
There isn't really an argument with that, but.

I agree they want to try and cut out the cheating. There have been fewer cards for diving it seems this year, than ever. Until they really impose retrospective punishment, and teamsters losing important players for game because of it, nothing will change. Only 2 sets of people can effect that, those that make the Laws and those that impose them.
Look from the other side though. Player stays on his feet after a slight foul, looses balance but gets his shot away, no Pen. Same player next time thinks, sod that I feel contact I'm going down. Then you get those like the other day, guy goes past defender and could get a cross in but goes down, no punishment. He should be given a booking at least but they don't do that. They need to use the tech they have to punish out right cheats. We can piss and moan all we like, managers too, until those in control and the Refs stamp down, well, we are where we are. 

 

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14 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

We do hear of referees getting demoted occasionally. Referees also disappear down the leagues at the end of seasons. Referees are marked and assessed at ‘every game’ in all the leagues as far down as the National league. These marks and assessments are obviously kept in house. 
But let’s be realistic here, the only people who go on the pitch to cheat, intimidate, and con people, are the players. 

No, let's be realistic, you've just proven my point. Bring that shit up front. Make it clear where things have gone wrong, show that action has been taken, work harder to train referees better, then trust in officials will improve. THEN cheating will decrease as people will see the same fouls and dives punished with consistency and clarity.

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1 hour ago, sephjnr said:

No, let's be realistic, you've just proven my point. Bring that shit up front. Make it clear where things have gone wrong, show that action has been taken, work harder to train referees better, then trust in officials will improve. THEN cheating will decrease as people will see the same fouls and dives punished with consistency and clarity.

If you want to get things in the open you must broadcast every word of the conversations between referee and VAR.

 

These will lay bare where they are going wrong and where they are going right and will see really speedy improvements as all the refs and VAR people will learn.  The VAR person needs to be at the ground meeting captain and managers etc.

It's really not that difficult.

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1 hour ago, sephjnr said:

No, let's be realistic, you've just proven my point. Bring that shit up front. Make it clear where things have gone wrong, show that action has been taken, work harder to train referees better, then trust in officials will improve. THEN cheating will decrease as people will see the same fouls and dives punished with consistency and clarity.

Would you allow your work assessments to be viewed by everyone?

Your in cloud cuckoo land if you think players won’t stop cheating.

Here’s a thought, why don’t you take the referees course and try and become one yourself. Referees are desperately needed, due to people abusing them and thinking they could do better! 

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On 24/05/2021 at 10:54, The Bard said:

Laws in Rugby Union.  Rules in football as my dad always tells me. 

Then your dad misled you.

The game of football is played to a set of established and agreed LAWS. Amazing so many managers & players don't know that.

The structure of football is administered by an association of rules, hence Association Football and it's abbreviation 'Soccer', which isn't an Americanism and was once what The People's Game was called (distinguished from 'Football' the abbreviated form of Rugby Football.)

I'll get my coat .....

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6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

No, they need the players to stop cheating and conning the officials.

We need managers to tell their own players to stop cheating.

If players stop cheating, you don’t get these problems in the first place.

It feels that a lot of people are quite willing to watch players cheat, so they can take their own frustration out on the officials.

I’m amazed we don’t have people queuing up to be referees, as we have so many experts on this, and other forums!.

I glanced at this thread earlier today and in the meantime was thinking along exactly the same lines.

My feeling is that it was the increasing lack of respect for, and towards referees that lead to the introduction of VAR. With more at stake financially, players and managers became increasingly inclined to blame “mistaken judgements” by officials for their own failings, so that we saw the infamous Man United posse pursuing referees across the pitch - a tactic copied by many teams subsequently. 

At the same time, the irony was that players were increasingly trying to con referees through “cheating”, by diving, feigning injury and encouraging referees to book or send off opponents at every turn. Players have always cheated in this way, but the premier league period has seen it reach pandemic proportions!

I know that players are given yellow cards for diving, but it seems that this only happens in and around the penalty area, and even then anyone that has played the game must feel as I do i.e. that too many referees are too naive when it comes to the way players act and react. If players were punished more often, and more severely for such cheating perhaps it would redress the balance and restore a degree of respect for officials, so that officials can make decisions without feeling that they will be overruled by a faceless panel reviewing from miles away.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Bard said:

If you want to get things in the open you must broadcast every word of the conversations between referee and VAR.

 

These will lay bare where they are going wrong and where they are going right and will see really speedy improvements as all the refs and VAR people will learn.  The VAR person needs to be at the ground meeting captain and managers etc.

It's really not that difficult.

Why?

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6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Would you allow your work assessments to be viewed by everyone?

I'd certainly want public retractions on crappy decisions that could potentially cost millions of pounds for clubs. I ABSOLUTELY want better communincation to the stadium (and TV) audience as to what's being reviewed and why, and it is IMPERATIVE that if any benefit of doubt is present to a particular decision, that same benefit must apply to *all* decisions. "Clear and obvious" can't coexist with pixel measurement from angles that can't be dead-on due to the current tech.

I'm ignoring the rest of your zero-sum blabbering as you seem to believe the people in charge can't do any better with adapting to a system that seems to be working bettter elsewhere in the world, not just in English football.

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Mic up the refs. Let’s us hear the conversations they  are having with the VAR team and maybe people would understand why they are making certain decisions. I saw an example in the A League and it worked brilliantly. 
 

Chucking in my 2p, the biggest issue for me really is the offside line drawing nonsense showing an armpit or stud is off, but the fact is that offside is not an objective rule. An attacker is either on or off whether it’s by 2mm or 2 yards. I just hate how it takes the emotion and spontaneity out of scoring a goal 

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23 hours ago, The Bard said:

 

So they are a person to the 2 sides rather than just 'VAR'.  

Why can’t we have players telling us how, and why,  they missed a penalty, how they missed an open goal, why they tried to cheat, and dived for a penalty?

Ive yet to see or hear an interview after a game where a player involved in cheating actually explains why.

They won’t, they go and hide in their dressing room and send someone else out to be interviewed.

 

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18 hours ago, sephjnr said:

I'd certainly want public retractions on crappy decisions that could potentially cost millions of pounds for clubs. I ABSOLUTELY want better communincation to the stadium (and TV) audience as to what's being reviewed and why, and it is IMPERATIVE that if any benefit of doubt is present to a particular decision, that same benefit must apply to *all* decisions. "Clear and obvious" can't coexist with pixel measurement from angles that can't be dead-on due to the current tech.

I'm ignoring the rest of your zero-sum blabbering as you seem to believe the people in charge can't do any better with adapting to a system that seems to be working bettter elsewhere in the world, not just in English football.

Where is it working better? 

VAR is a complete farce, football matches are between 22 players who make constant mistakes, and 3 officials who make the odd mistake.

This, because they are human beings.

Get the game back to the way it’s always been, and stop pandering to tv audiences and tv companies.

Yes, we all know mistakes get made, but that is part of the game we all use to love, nowadays it’s turned into a farce.

As for my “blabbering”, have you ever refereed a football match in your life, if you haven’t then volunteer and try it, because you would be absolutely shocked to find out how hard it is.

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