Derby County

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

On the Price of Football podcast today Kieran Maguire reckons the total amount Clowes paid was £60-£65m, with the stadium costing £22m.

That would mean he paid a staggering amount for the club, way beyond its intrinsic value.

Good news for the creditors, especially HMRC perhaps?

Gonna listen to that over lunch.

[chinapig]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Gonna listen to that over lunch.

You'll enjoy the bit about him being public enemy no.1 with Derby fans for daring to point out to the EFL that their beloved Mel was a cheat.

[downendcity]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

You'll enjoy the bit about him being public enemy no.1 with Derby fans for daring to point out to the EFL that their beloved Mel was a cheat.

There's plenty in contention for that "honour" - a hard fought contest!

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, downendcity said:

There's plenty in contention for that "honour" - a hard fought contest!

As Kevin Day points out on the podcast Morris must be disappointed that he worked so hard at being the villain but lost the contest.

[Davefevs]

 

[RedRaw]

Does that mean the forest fans can start calling them the 22’ers?

[Davefevs]

Have they paid Lech their stage payment for Joswiak yet?

Got some neck!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62048784

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

Just signed Conor Hourihane

[phantom]

Now signed David McGoldrick

[chinapig]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Have they paid Lech their stage payment for Joswiak yet?

Got some neck!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62048784

This is Derby, they're so special they don't have to pay their debts.

[chinapig]

45 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Just signed Conor Hourihane

That suggests the EFL have been pretty generous with their business plan. If that proves to be the case other League 1 clubs who pay their bills will not be best pleased.

[Lrrr]

Worrying how much the wages of all these players will be even if they are out of administration and have a new owner. Assume the league 1 version of FFP and big attendances will allow Derby to spend big at that level.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Worrying how much the wages of all these players will be even if they are out of administration and have a new owner. Assume the league 1 version of FFP and big attendances will allow Derby to spend big at that level.

Surely an EFL Business Plan on exit of administration- remember the moral hazard element of cutting debts- supersedes the usual 60% or whatever it is. If it was a normal club relegated in normal circumstances I'd agree with you.

[AnotherDerbyFan]

It's almost as if Derby won't have higher revenue than half of the Championship next season despite being a league below and without the TV money. 

[Derby_Ram]

A week's a long time in football so heaven knows what you'd call the gap since the last time I was on here - and it wasn't really that long ago. Relief is the overwhelming feeling this end.

Despite misgivings about CK's ability to do the deal the whole time I finally became convinced and then his money vanished. Think we dodged a huge bullet.

One day - NDAs permitting - everything may come out in the wash. Did CK take Rooney, Cook, Stretford in? Was he the puppet for those/someone else? Did he ever get back the money he tried to transfer or is it lost forever amongst laundering checks and he's turned a spotlight onto himself? Was WRs resignation at all linked?

Clowes has come along like the proverbial knight in shining armour. A genuine fan as opposed to MM and someone you'd frequently see at away games acting as a fan. Early words from him are encouraging and I believe he stepped in to save the club and run it sustainably for a period of time and once on an even keel look to sell it on. I only hope he doesn't get seduced by being a fan into chasing a dream.

The great unknown now is how much he paid overall, in particular to HMRC. It doesn't make conversations about how we're signing players/what the business plan irrelevant - but it becomes impossible to have anything other than a hypothetical conversation.... if we haven't paid x back is it right - no; but what have we paid back - don't know. No one can say with certainty that we now have a competitive advantage v other clubs regarding tax, equally no one can say we don't.

Find it hard to believe we've paid HMRC everything / have a plan to.....but also the business plan has been approved remarkably quickly, not a muttering of dissent from HMRC, and places reporting what Clowes has paid being astronomical if we haven't.

Season tickets on sale today and early transfer business encouraging (with the caveat of no one knowing what has/hasn't been repaid). Its nice to have some semblance of normality and typical pre-season hope. Roll of July 30th for that to go flying out the window.

Good luck to City for the upcoming season - always keen to see Chrissy Martin do well.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

The great unknown now is how much he paid overall, in particular to HMRC. It doesn't make conversations about how we're signing players/what the business plan irrelevant - but it becomes impossible to have anything other than a hypothetical conversation.... if we haven't paid x back is it right - no; but what have we paid back - don't know. No one can say with certainty that we now have a competitive advantage v other clubs regarding tax, equally no one can say we don't.

Kieran Maguire's info is that Clowes paid between £60m and £65m in total with £22m being for the stadium.

On the surface that is an extraordinary amount that massively over values the club. It could mean that creditors will be paid more than expected, though presumably not the full amount owed.

If he has paid significantly more than the minimum required by the EFL insolvency policy it would actually be good PR to say so and a step on the way to rebuilding the club's reputation. He's certainly going to be asked some tough questions by other club owners so he might as well start to improve relationships asap.

Anyway, now the club has been saved a degree of humility from the club and its fans would be a good idea.

I exclude you from that of course, your contribution to this thread has always been reasonable and welcome.

[Mr Popodopolous]

41 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

It's almost as if Derby won't have higher revenue than half of the Championship next season despite being a league below and without the TV money. 

Totally fair point in normal circs- but being relieved of debt obligations brings with it extra restrictions to reflect this.

OTOH if Clowes as per Kieran Maguire has paid what was stated- £60-65m minus the £22m for the ground then that is good and as @chinapigsaid might not be a bad idea if the club said so.

Oh yeah on the salary and turnover thing- depends doesn't it if it's a total cap across the squad or an average or some combination of the two- the restrictions for new signings last year were £4.5k per week for Derby and £8.5k I think per week for Reading (IIRC).

Edited July 6, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Derby and Embargo- and then there were 4!

HMRC remains on there, two accounting reasons remain on there and the bit about non submission being a P&S rule breach remain on there but the in administration has now been removed- largely because they are out of administration. Would have thought the accounting ones would be resolved as part of the takeover ie actual full on submission and the reasons therefore removed at the same time.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Derby and Embargo- and then there were 4!

HMRC remains on there, two accounting reasons remain on there and the bit about non submission being a P&S rule breach remain on there but the in administration has now been removed- largely because they are out of administration. Would have thought the accounting ones would be resolved as part of the takeover ie actual full on submission and the reasons therefore removed at the same time.

Showing blank on the webpage I looked at.

Ignore me…they aren’t in the championship anymore are they

[eardun]

On 06/07/2022 at 12:31, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Just signed Conor Hourihane

Surprised he’s gone down to league one. 

[Derby_Ram]

On 06/07/2022 at 18:06, Mr Popodopolous said:

Derby and Embargo- and then there were 4!

HMRC remains on there, two accounting reasons remain on there and the bit about non submission being a P&S rule breach remain on there but the in administration has now been removed- largely because they are out of administration. Would have thought the accounting ones would be resolved as part of the takeover ie actual full on submission and the reasons therefore removed at the same time.

where are you seeing this?

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

where are you seeing this?

Looks like they’ve updated in the last 24-48 hours

[Barrieowl]

2 hours ago, eardun said:

Surprised he’s gone down to league one. 

Suspect it was due to location 

[Barrieowl]

I know Mr P has had his issues over Wednesday and rightly so, some points we will never agree on but given we had an embargo over late wages last year I find how Derby have recruited to be truly wrong.

They look capable of challenging rather than struggle.

 

[AnotherDerbyFan]

9 hours ago, Barrieowl said:

I know Mr P has had his issues over Wednesday and rightly so, some points we will never agree on but given we had an embargo over late wages last year I find how Derby have recruited to be truly wrong.

They look capable of challenging rather than struggle.

Last time I checked, the terms for exiting administration are not "must struggle". Wigan exited administration in March 2021, yet I didn't see a single person saying it's not fair because they didn't struggle (winning the league instead)

We also paid wages on time every month last season and have now completed our term under embargo (for P&S reasons and administration).

All of our signings are within the business plan as agreed with the EFL. A week ago we only had 5 'senior' players contracted to the club, so it's not as if signings weren't expected. All for free too, unlike Wigan, who spent over £600k on a single player.

[Davefevs]

Now that Derby are up and running, what happens to things like submitting prior year accounts with Companies House, and P&S submissions to EFL.

Derby will have to have submitted their 22/23 projections by Mid/end June and must comply with:

It would be great if there was transparency re any injections, although in Derby’s case, their income is likely to be one of the higher ones in Lg1, so achieving 75% on wages might be not too bad to achieve.

League One is going to be crazy (again) this year.  Wednesday have recruited ever so well, Peterborough will be no mugs, together with Ipswich (stifled recruitment this summer), Charlton (recruited well), etc, etc.  Only three spots up for grabs, one or two are gonna feel the pinch next summer if they don’t get up this time around.

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

where are you seeing this?

Sorry was a bit behind on things- all of it cleared now though I'd query at least the clearance of 16.3 given no accounts in the public domain.

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Now that Derby are up and running, what happens to things like submitting prior year accounts with Companies House, and P&S submissions to EFL.

Derby will have to have submitted their 22/23 projections by Mid/end June and must comply with:

It would be great if there was transparency re any injections, although in Derby’s case, their income is likely to be one of the higher ones in Lg1, so achieving 75% on wages might be not too bad to achieve.

League One is going to be crazy (again) this year.  Wednesday have recruited ever so well, Peterborough will be no mugs, together with Ipswich (stifled recruitment this summer), Charlton (recruited well), etc, etc.  Only three spots up for grabs, one or two are gonna feel the pinch next summer if they don’t get up this time around.

Matt Hughes has suggested that as part of the post exit Business Plan, Derby will be restricted to £8m on player wages! If that's true and accurate, I no longer have any argument- seems that Clowes has paid creditors more than they can reasonably expect and the extra handicap for some debt avoidance has kicked in with the £8m thing.

Yes think it'll be a competitive League. Think Bolton on an upward curve still, games like Accrington and Fleetwood away in the wind and rain in winter always a challenge, perhaps Cambridge and Cheltenham too- Wycombe have their unique style of play another challenge, Oxford, Portsmouth- good sides. Barnsley are seasoned yoyoers in recent times although losing Morris AND Woodrow- they'll have a tougher time than usual IMO.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Matt Hughes has suggested that as part of the post exit Business Plan, Derby will be restricted to £8m on player wages! If that's true and accurate, I no longer have any argument- seems that Clowes has paid creditors more than they can reasonably expect and the extra handicap for some debt avoidance has kicked in with the £8m thing.

Ta, you got a link for that…would be good if EFL published the restrictions like they have with Reading, etc.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Ta, you got a link for that…would be good if EFL published the restrictions like they have with Reading, etc.

His Ahead of the Game column. Yep restrictions published as with Derby themselves and Reading would be good.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10996387/AHEAD-GAME-EFL-fury-BBCs-20m-Champions-League-TV-deal.html

They were restricted to about £15m IIRC from the Agreed Decision but Matt Hughes settles on £12m- maybe that's solely for players, I remember Reading were £21m or so last season and down to £16m for this season.

[chinapig]

34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

His Ahead of the Game column. Yep restrictions published as with Derby themselves and Reading would be good.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10996387/AHEAD-GAME-EFL-fury-BBCs-20m-Champions-League-TV-deal.html

They were restricted to about £15m IIRC from the Agreed Decision but Matt Hughes settles on £12m- maybe that's solely for players, I remember Reading were £21m or so last season and down to £16m for this season.

How much of a restriction that is depends on what the average wage bill is in League 1.

It would be interesting to compare with Ipswich. Especially as Ashton was telling fans who wanted yet more signings that they should have a look at their wage bill. The size of which has nothing to do with him of course.