Derby County

[steviestevieneville]

The betting company that paid for Rooneys wages as a player. Are they still actively involved ? 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

It's doesn't annul but the cynic in me thinks Morris gambles the EFL are less likely to hit them with another sizeable points deduction after the administration penalty.

The EFL must punish them heavily. Even the disingenuous administration statement implies all this wasn't Derby's fault, it was others who connived to bring them low.

Nothing against Derby fans but if you are one and cheered and gloated the lying and shyster activities Morris promoted, then don't look for sympathy as you, too, are the problem.

Having looked up the rules I think the exact opposite.

MM wants to sell and sell quick.  Knows he’s gonna get 9 point deduction.  Derby likely to be in amongst the relegation battle anyway.  9 points lost could be the tipping point.  New buyers are gonna be very sceptical about the price of a Championship club with threat of relegation.  So, go into Administration, take minus 21 and that confirms relegation.  They don’t have a squad capable of 65+ points (44+) that might save them, least of all if the Administrators start selling assets.  So the sell becomes a clean League One proposition…and Mel hopes they find new buyers quickly.  He’s intimated as such.  New owners get to keep some of the squad together.

Thats my opinion.  Not sure if it makes sense or not.  What do you reckon?

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

I agree but I’m just looking at it from a fans perspective. As a club derby deserve everything they get, but like us they have no say in how the clubs run. 
How SL (footballing wise) has run us I’m critical of but not financially if that makes sense. That for another day though 

According to the BBC Derby's wage bill went from £16m in 2014 to £47m in 2018.

Now look at our accounts over the Ashton period to see how our wage bill ballooned. Steve was asleep at the wheel and we are now paying the price.

Steve doesn't cheat like Morris but it's possible to sleep walk into FFP problems if you don't keep a tight control over costs.

[steviestevieneville]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

According to the BBC Derby's wage bill went from £16m in 2014 to £47m in 2018.

Now look at our accounts over the Ashton period to see how our wage bill ballooned. Steve was asleep at the wheel and we are now paying the price.

Steve doesn't cheat like Morris but it's possible to sleep walk into FFP problems if you don't keep a tight control over costs.

This is true , I’ll back track on SL’s running of the club under Ashton. 
The worst thing for me is Ashton came in as consultant , obviously recruitment wise in 2012-13 and presided over one of the most lopsided squads we’ve ever had under mcciines. Lansdown then reappointed him after Kieth Burt along with SOD & cotts had righted the ship . Unbelievable really . 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

This is true , I’ll back track on SL’s running of the club under Ashton. 
The worst thing for me is Ashton came in as consultant , obviously recruitment wise in 2012-13 and presided over one of the most lopsided squads we’ve ever had under mcciines. Lansdown then reappointed him after Kieth Burt along with SOD & cotts had righted the ship . Unbelievable really . 

Out of interest, what do you reckon SL does with the snake oil Ashton sold him?

[BTRFTG]

55 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Having looked up the rules I think the exact opposite.

MM wants to sell and sell quick.  Knows he’s gonna get 9 point deduction.  Derby likely to be in amongst the relegation battle anyway.  9 points lost could be the tipping point.  New buyers are gonna be very sceptical about the price of a Championship club with threat of relegation.  So, go into Administration, take minus 21 and that confirms relegation.  They don’t have a squad capable of 65+ points (44+) that might save them, least of all if the Administrators start selling assets.  So the sell becomes a clean League One proposition…and Mel hopes they find new buyers quickly.  He’s intimated as such.  New owners get to keep some of the squad together.

Thats my opinion.  Not sure if it makes sense or not.  What do you reckon?

Statement  (believe it if you will as it  contains other garbage,) states there are 'no buyers' on the horizon.

Going into administration kicks in the farcical 'Alcatel' standoff of having to wait 28 days for supporters to dream of emptying the chump change from the back of their sofas or struggling with the math of how many shirts they'd need to sell to turn things around, all before concluding they have nowhere near enough to fund the academy let alone the football club.

There's also the added complication of the ground. Haven't read the full statement so assume the company holding the ground isn't in administration, though that's somewhat moot given it'll receive little income whilst the club is. So assume any buyer would have to tie up deals not only with the administrator but also Morris and there's your first problem for starters . There's great danger in  buying the club without the ground but none if buying the ground not giving two hoots for the club. Suppose Morris is offered a far better return for the latter, where does that leave the administrator to go in finding a buyer for the club?

Edited September 18, 2021 by BTRFTG

[BTRFTG]

49 minutes ago, chinapig said:

According to the BBC Derby's wage bill went from £16m in 2014 to £47m in 2018.

Which is odd as during that period Derby's employees were drastically reduced according to their accounts.

Save they weren't, rather in breaking with accounting convention they shipped folks out to various entities then failed to roll up the wholly owned subsidiaries figures into the controlling company accounts. In truth the headcount increased, hence the numbers you report, but which Derby's accounts did not.

Derby & Morris deserve all that's coming home to roost.

[steviestevieneville]

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what do you reckon SL does with the snake oil Ashton sold him?

It’s genuinely amazing Dave . This is a self made billionaire , not some idiot . I’ve said it before & I’ll always say it . He knows absolutely nothing about football . He was never a football man . The only managerial appointment he’s got right was Gary Johnson . Apart from that he’s surrounded himself with nodding dogs . 

[Davefevs]

42 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Statement  (believe it if you will as it  contains other garbage,) states there are 'no buyers' on the horizon.

Going into administration kicks in the farcical 'Alcatel' standoff of having to wait 28 days for supporters to dream of emptying the chump change from the back of their sofas or struggling with the math of how many shirts they'd need to sell to turn things around, all before concluding they have nowhere near enough to fund the academy let alone the football club.

There's also the added complication of the ground. Haven't read the full statement so assume the company holding the ground isn't in administration, though that's somewhat moot given it'll receive little income whilst the club is. So assume any buyer would have to tie up deals not only with the administrator but also Morris and there's your first problem for starters . There's great danger in  buying the club without the ground but none if buying the ground not giving two hoots for the club. Suppose Morris is offered a far better return for the latter, where does that leave the administrator to go in finding a buyer for the club?

Ta….I’ve no idea who owns the ground anymore, or whether it’s part of the myriad of companies included in the administration as per the statement.

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

25 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

It’s genuinely amazing Dave . This is a self made billionaire , not some idiot . I’ve said it before & I’ll always say it . He knows absolutely nothing about football . He was never a football man . The only managerial appointment he’s got right was Gary Johnson . Apart from that he’s surrounded himself with nodding dogs . 

Agree…..I’m also grateful for his backing / sensible backing, but he’s made some big mistakes too.

[MC RISK77]

There’s chasing a dream, then there is just irresponsible people running a club. Be careful what you wish for.

[big dosser]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

There's a world of difference in being 'incompetently run' & 'being incompetently run whilst actively cheating & seeking to blame anybody other than oneself for that failure'.

Therein lies the difference between 1982 & Derby under Morris.

And whilst many (myself included) believe SL contravenes the 'spirit' of FFP (not that's worth much,) they also tend to be those not clamouring for new, expensive & unrealistic signings, or those who throw their toys out the pram when results take a downturn.

City exist because SL has very deep pockets, not you'd know that from much of the abuse & delusion City muppets throw his way.

 

spot on sir i for one can never understand why sl gets abuse one of the best chairman in the country

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, what do you reckon SL does with the snake oil Ashton sold him?

The thing is, like a lot of placebo's there was a period where it looked like it was working, even some of his fervent detractors have admitted as much.

In those circumstances, when things start to go wrong, it's easy to persuaded that it's this period that is out of the norm rather than the previous good period.

By the time the con is in, running them out of town looks like locking the stable after the horse has bolted.

Clearly the main thing to take from this post is that I have watched too many westerns and episodes of the High Chapparel than is healthy.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Port Said Red

[Kodjias Wrist]

Feel so sorry for the Derby fans.

[steviestevieneville]

33 minutes ago, MC RISK77 said:

There’s chasing a dream, then there is just irresponsible people running a club. Be careful what you wish for.

There’s being careful what you wish for & actually just being better at what you’re doing 

[steviestevieneville]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta….I’ve no idea who owns the ground anymore, or whether it’s part of the myriad of companies included in the administration as per the statement.

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

Agree…..I’m also grateful for his backing / sensible backing, but he’s made some big mistakes too.

Yes, I’m grateful of course . However it’s very Bristol City to get a billionaire owner who keeps having his pants pulled down football wise. 

[Bristol Rob]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Big question, who will buy the club without the ground?

I think Mark Goldberg somehow bought Palace from Ron Noades (with money loaned to him by Noades) - but that didn't include the ground.

 

[old_eastender]

12 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

Feel so sorry for the Derby fans.

oh yeah, gutted  

[Bristol Rob]

14 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

Feel so sorry for the Derby fans.

I wouldn't.

Most of them seem to think it's jealousy and they have done nothing wrong as the EFL said something about something, and anyway, they have Rooney and it's that Gibson bloke at Boro who is the problem and so what if we sold the stadium, that's just being clever... oh, and we are untouchable and Mel is a fan....

Seriously, for those who could see the problems approaching, yes; they have my sympathy. But for the bullish who claimed all manner of reasons why this couldn't happen to them because a mate down the pub is self employed and knows about business... less so.

[Lanterne Rouge]

The people who we should really feel sorry for are all the local suppliers and contractors who now won`t get paid.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Lot of q's about the ground.

The Ground (and Training Ground) for that matter, MSD loaned cash to the club. Was secured against these and everything tbh.

By everything I mean the charges appeared over the following companies:

1) The Derby County Football Club Limited

2) Club DCFC Limited

3) The Derby County FC Academy Limited

4) Stadia DCFC Limited

5) Sevco 5112 Limited

6) Gellaw Newco 203 Limited

Ah that still doesn't cover the ground.

Good thing then that it also seems to appear on.

1) Gellaw Newco 202 Limited- The company listed as owning the ground.

2) Gellaw Newco 204 Limited- The company who control the company who own the ground.

All ultimately under Mel.

@BTRFTG 

Interesting you should mention that. What happened was that in 2015/16 when he took over, as I'm sure you know that's when Sevco 5112, Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC all appeared, effective from 2016/17.

However because 2016/17 was 10 months for Sevco and 12 for the club, 2017/18 this is the best comparison.

What appears to have happened is that the, and again hard to compare 2016/17, so 2017/18. Anyway the club included all the revenue from all the new subsidiaries in their accounts but additional costs and employees, perhaps even some existing ones appeared in Sevco 5112. Hence a £15m or so loss gap on roughly the same income.

How can the club include that in their accounts when those subsidiaries like them is/was under Sevco 5112 and not the club directly.

I'm actually surprised it's lawful and above board but there we are. True and fair reflection??

@steviestevieneville

The thing about sympathy for the fans, to a point of course but what about those who were gloating persistently, EFL on strings, we're untouchable etc etc. For those my sympathy is more mixed, they after all were passively happy with the overspending but actively revelling in the methods used in pursuit of it. (Not all obviously but online seemingly a sizeable minority).

Edited September 18, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Ostrich]

With us having been there in 2002 and hours away from going out of business, albeit I am only just old enough to really remember it, I should have more sympathy for their fans but none at all really. Of course, nobody should lose their club, I hope it doesn't come to that. I've felt sorry for Cov fans with some of the stuff they've been through in recent year and I'm not actually displeased to see them doing alright again, despite growing up disliking them far more than Derby. But the fans fell hook, line and sinker for the owners rubbish and repeatedly gave it the biggun, they refused they refused to believe it could end badly, they refused to believe they could be punished, they decided it was a conspiracy against them, they've gone fully down the victimhood route, they thought they'd won the jackpot with the Sheikh despite everyone else telling them otherwise. It's been pure delusion all the way along, it must be something in the water in the northern half of the East Midlands.
Tbf, the only point I feel sorry for them on is that we also had a supposed FFP transgression (in much different circumstances) but got away with it by getting up and out.

Of course the people to feel sorry for are the ordinary people that will lose their jobs and the small creditors who will get stuffed over. There's really only one man to blame and Derby fans expended so much energy defending him it almost became a cult. 

Good thing for them is that they might hopefully be able to take Notts with them. Having the Brian Clough Trophy is about the only point of either club atm.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Ostrich

[Buster Footman's T shirt]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Having looked up the rules I think the exact opposite.

MM wants to sell and sell quick.  Knows he’s gonna get 9 point deduction.  Derby likely to be in amongst the relegation battle anyway.  9 points lost could be the tipping point.  New buyers are gonna be very sceptical about the price of a Championship club with threat of relegation.  So, go into Administration, take minus 21 and that confirms relegation.  They don’t have a squad capable of 65+ points (44+) that might save them, least of all if the Administrators start selling assets.  So the sell becomes a clean League One proposition…and Mel hopes they find new buyers quickly.  He’s intimated as such.  New owners get to keep some of the squad together.

Thats my opinion.  Not sure if it makes sense or not.  What do you reckon?

Nail on head. Derby with a clean slate and fresh start in league one must be an attractive proposition although no guarantees as league one looks to be getting ever more competitive 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

Nail on head. Derby with a clean slate and fresh start in league one must be an attractive proposition although no guarantees as league one looks to be getting ever more competitive 

Talk of a 2 year transfer embargo too. Not so attractive

[Bristol Rob]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Talk of a 2 year transfer embargo too. Not so attractive

I struggle to read the word 'embargo' without thinking of Canadian rapper at patois speaker, Snow.

Licky boom-boom down.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I struggle to read the word 'embargo' without thinking of Canadian rapper at patois speaker, Snow.

Licky boom-boom down.

I drink it in the Congo!!!

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Talk of a 2 year transfer embargo too. Not so attractive

Does the embargo get dropped if the club comes out of administration?

And, taking Reading's recruitment as an example, is an embargo entirely meaningful anyway?

[Desso]

3 hours ago, big dosser said:

spot on sir i for one can never understand why sl gets abuse one of the best chairman in the country

But he's not chairman, or have I missed something?

[View from the Dolman]

Rooney in an interview with Sky Sports saying he learned of last night's developments by watching it on Sky. You'd think somebody from the board would have given him the heads up between the filing and the statement being released several hours later. 

[REDOXO]

Wycombe must be gutted

[BTRFTG]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Lot of q's about the ground.

The Ground (and Training Ground) for that matter, MSD loaned cash to the club. Was secured against these and everything tbh.

By everything I mean the charges appeared over the following companies:

1) The Derby County Football Club Limited

2) Club DCFC Limited

3) The Derby County FC Academy Limited

4) Stadia DCFC Limited

5) Sevco 5112 Limited

6) Gellaw Newco 203 Limited

Ah that still doesn't cover the ground.

Good thing then that it also seems to appear on.

1) Gellaw Newco 202 Limited- The company listed as owning the ground.

2) Gellaw Newco 204 Limited- The company who control the company who own the ground.

All ultimately under Mel.

@BTRFTG 

Interesting you should mention that. What happened was that in 2015/16 when he took over, as I'm sure you know that's when Sevco 5112, Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC all appeared, effective from 2016/17.

However because 2016/17 was 10 months for Sevco and 12 for the club, 2017/18 this is the best comparison.

What appears to have happened is that the, and again hard to compare 2016/17, so 2017/18. Anyway the club included all the revenue from all the new subsidiaries in their accounts but additional costs and employees, perhaps even some existing ones appeared in Sevco 5112. Hence a £15m or so loss gap on roughly the same income.

How can the club include that in their accounts when those subsidiaries like them is/was under Sevco 5112 and not the club directly.

I'm actually surprised it's lawful and above board but there we are. True and fair reflection??

@steviestevieneville

The thing about sympathy for the fans, to a point of course but what about those who were gloating persistently, EFL on strings, we're untouchable etc etc. For those my sympathy is more mixed, they after all were passively happy with the overspending but actively revelling in the methods used in pursuit of it. (Not all obviously but online seemingly a sizeable minority).

Caveat Emptor.

For example, there's nothing illegal in accounting practice in switching amortisation method from flatline to ERV provided one makes clear in the accounts what method one's using. After all, in the end one gets to the same place. Accounts are not designed to be an absolute, accredited statement of value/liability at a single point in time, rather give a reflective snapshot against the assumptions listed.  It's 'read the small print'.

I believe Derby did exactly the above with player values to squeeze £20m or so from one year's accounts to the next hence no surprise when 3 or 4 years later the chickens (and write-offs) came home to roost.

With most football intangibles 'True & Fair' is almost impossible to value. I'm sure most Gasheads would say their club title is worth 7 figures. As most realise that's figures AFTER the decimal point.