Derby County

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, cider11 said:

If perhaps he’d run a tighter ship and adhered to FFP rules he wouldn’t have been spunking so much money out each month. Plus spending like he was fuels other clubs to also try and keep up.

Still doesn't seem to cross his mind. Still blaming the EFL for expecting him to play by the rules I see. How sad.

[Davefevs]

The interview:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09wdhd3

[RedRaw]

The guy makes all the same buzz words and sounds just like Ashton….smarmy bstard

[Davefevs]

11:40 - COVID and PPs blamed

15:40 - amortisation / FRS102

21:05 - resubmit accounts - been prepared - admission of breach

22:45 - buying players (Darren Bent type etc) / managers (Clement, Rowett, Cocu)

Cocu hamstrung by above. His payoff was £8m (MM less than that but a big sum).  Deflects to Nottingham Forest.

29:00 - COVID killing P&S

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Davefevs

[mjd]

Read somewhere one person on the consortium who were trying to take over, are asking the supporters to get on social media and complain about this happening to them .

[SE23Red]

14 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Interesting info but not sure if matters  aren't conflated between legal obligation to file at Companies House and the farce that is FFP.

This is key.

Loads of excellent analysis has been done on the paper money tricks MM has employed, but usually from the angle that Derby gained a sporting/competitive advantage from accounting differently to other clubs.

Administration is a different ballgame.

MM has spent years playing the rich man, bending rules to allow him to put as much of his money into the club as he could, as quickly as he could to chase the dream.

What I find amazing is, even having taken the club into Admin, he still doesn't appear to comprehend that FFP is there to protect clubs against people exactly like him. Of course a club operating outside of FFP rules is going to be hit worst by Covid. That doesn't make it Covid's fault!

[BTRFTG]

24 minutes ago, SE23Red said:

he still doesn't appear to comprehend that FFP is there to protect clubs against people exactly like him.

As has amply been demonstrated by those who write about such matters FFP has NOTHING to do with protecting football clubs and their finances and is a wholly driven initiative to ring-fence elite European clubs from being threatened by nascent upstarts with rich backers. Always was, always will be.

Look at clubs finances since FFP was introduced and there are more on the brink now than ever (and that's nothing to do with the pandemic.)

If you don't believe me look no further than our own club, net liabilities approaching £130m, about to drop accounts reporting record losses, a wage bill recently significantly higher than turnover, with no realistic means of paying the owner back his 'loans' (sic).

[Monkeh]

54 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As has amply been demonstrated by those who write about such matters FFP has NOTHING to do with protecting football clubs and their finances and is a wholly driven initiative to ring-fence elite European clubs from being threatened by nascent upstarts with rich backers. Always was, always will be.

Look at clubs finances since FFP was introduced and there are more on the brink now than ever (and that's nothing to do with the pandemic.)

If you don't believe me look no further than our own club, net liabilities approaching £130m, about to drop accounts reporting record losses, a wage bill recently significantly higher than turnover, with no realistic means of paying the owner back his 'loans' (sic).

Explain man City then 

[SE23Red]

35 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

As has amply been demonstrated by those who write about such matters FFP has NOTHING to do with protecting football clubs and their finances and is a wholly driven initiative to ring-fence elite European clubs from being threatened by nascent upstarts with rich backers. Always was, always will be.

Look at clubs finances since FFP was introduced and there are more on the brink now than ever (and that's nothing to do with the pandemic.)

If you don't believe me look no further than our own club, net liabilities approaching £130m, about to drop accounts reporting record losses, a wage bill recently significantly higher than turnover, with no realistic means of paying the owner back his 'loans' (sic).

Fair point, and I'd definitely be open to a scheme where owners were obliged to underwrite debt and projected losses more robustly. E.g. depositing funds with EFL or trusted third party. I wasn't arguing in favour of the current rules, just that it takes some balls to run your club in breach of them every year and then blame everyone else when it turns out this is unsustainable.

[BTRFTG]

8 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Explain man City then 

Easy. Sheikh Mansour acquired Man City mid 2008. 

The 'historic' major European clubs already witnessing what Abramovich was achieving at Chelsea responded by proposing to UEFA outlines for FFP in 2009. UEFA implemented them in 2011. Pure protectionism and NOTHING about preventing clubs living beyond their means.

So to answer your question, in City's case the horse had already bolted.

 

[BTRFTG]

19 minutes ago, SE23Red said:

Fair point, and I'd definitely be open to a scheme where owners were obliged to underwrite debt and projected losses more robustly. E.g. depositing funds with EFL or trusted third party. I wasn't arguing in favour of the current rules, just that it takes some balls to run your club in breach of them every year and then blame everyone else when it turns out this is unsustainable.

FFP is meaningless. It's a game to be played and as with most games the richer one is the easier it is to win. In truth the difference between Morris & SL is SL has sufficient financial clout to provide an additional range of 'options', all legal, all within the rules, yet equally not within the spirit of what FFP claims to achieve.

What's disgraceful is the way in which UEFA now attempt to circumvent the rules they've introduced on behalf of the historic clubs, the ones who do not have seriously mega wealthy owners. Real & Barca cases in point.

[Davefevs]

55 minutes ago, SE23Red said:

Fair point, and I'd definitely be open to a scheme where owners were obliged to underwrite debt and projected losses more robustly. E.g. depositing funds with EFL or trusted third party. I wasn't arguing in favour of the current rules, just that it takes some balls to run your club in breach of them every year and then blame everyone else when it turns out this is unsustainable.

Me too.

The current rules don’t stop clubs becoming a mess / going bust, nor do they promote fair(ish) competition either.

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 hours ago, Hxj said:

So HMRC put you into Compulsory Liquidation and the club ceases to exist, nice outcome for DCFC!

MSD would have to have been informed of the intention to appont an administrator, a week I think, before the notice was issued.  If they were at all interested in the club they had to time to make that clear.

Read the Regulations!

Read the Regulations!  Particularly 51.6.1 and the following note!

"51.6.1 due to any other Club (or club) (including but not limited to any Transfer Fee, Compensation Fee, Loan Fee, other contributions due pursuant to the terms of any Temporary Loan Transfer, or any subsequent payments which become due under the terms of any original transfer(s), ticket monies, or other payments pursuant to the terms of any other agreement);

Examples of what are considered to be ‘other agreements’ in Regulation 51.6.1 could include compensation agreements relating to managers / coaching staff.

That will depend upon the Loan Agreement and the definition of 'Default Event' in that agreement.  As the Football Club is the tenant I would be very surprised if their insolvency wasn't a default event, given the close connection between all the parties.  That would allow MSD to recover under the charge, which covers virtually everything including ownership of the football club and the name 'Derby County FC' or any other guarantees it has.

It isn't his to sell or give away.  The ground is owned by a Company with restrictions on the disposal due to the charge from MSD.  Whilst I understand the pendantic nature of this comment, in reality given the compex situation MSD have more powers than Morris. 

 

Thank you, this clears up a lot...perhaps I should stop taking as gospel some of what I read on their forum.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The thing is, the P&S regs also have provision for the cash losses- and it is cash flow that can cause serious problems for businesses, in this case clubs.

Now the robustness and enforceability of it, this maybe different!!

Nixon was reporting through August and maybe beyond that the EFL were asking for assurances from Derby/Mel Morris. Perhaps these were the assurances in q?

Plus in more detail.

The regulations aren't necessarily the problem, P&S combined with the above should keep clubs safe- unless an owner literally runs out of cash, which seems not to have been the case here.

The stadium loophole has now been shut, had it been shut throughout then some of these cases wouldn't have arisen and dragged, with the resulting collateral damage.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

On 17/09/2021 at 16:43, Hxj said:

Disappointed with the comments on here.

Yes Morris and Pearce took the proverbial but how sad for a once great club.  Lots of good people up here will be mourning tonight and worried about their jobs

Yes the schadenfreude can be galling, but to be fair some of the hi jinx of the club and the myopia of some supporters is galling too. All that, we’ve done nothing wrong stuff on here, when it now appears that the EFL have let the board of Derby disappear up their own rectums at the expense of a freshly relegated Wycombe Wanderers. I expect that will run and run!
 

But I do take your point.  There will be a lot of suppliers with a headache this morning expecting pennies on the pound and maybe not even that if a buyer can not be found. I would be furious if I were a Derby fan and most are furious for Derby fans, particularly as now they (Derby supporters) ALL have to admit its not a conspiracy against them, by other clubs, its always been other clubs and there supporters pointing out Derby County’s constant shiftiest de’ jour and gaminess with the rules and by extension with their competitors and fellow clubs, who try to stay within the common bounds of decency and integrity expected in sport!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I have a feeling that they will be trying to slime their way out of the -12 for Admin. "Force Majeure" don't you know.

Mind you Wigan tried that albeit earlier into Covid. For the integrity of the League, ie the wider interests of the game, the EFL need to keep full throttle at Derby from all angles.

Some are also claiming that the -4 ie the overspend to that number in the 3 year sto 2017/18 should be the end of it ie it'd be unfair to punish for 2019 and perhaps beyond...unsure it's how it works. Every other club got assessed on every other period.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

I have just taken this from The DCFC fans forum…Nicely sums up a lot for me….particularly as it forecast this shiftiest….Good luck to the fans of Derby, one or two may want to have a little more humility in the future mind you!

DCFC Supporter as below

I have posted this on my personal facebook but want to let everyone else know as well hence why I have started a new thread. As fans we need to be collectively acting now on the back of the group Club 84 raising various issues over the past week or so. Do no bury your heads in the sand any longer. I am concerned.

Spent this last week focusing on something that means a hell of alot to me, Derby County.

This past year has been tough on me, sure you all know that and my primarily focus has been on my business and family. A new addition in Phoebe, a house move that now risks having houses built at the back of us replacing the green belt land that reside on the land and then working most nights delivering Uber to bring some income in, not to mention home schooling. So I haven't had the time to think about Derby County but it has now come to a tipping point where I am very concerned about our club.

Regardless of the result on Saturday, this club in my opinion is in serious danger and when I say that I mean it in the strongest of terms. Should this takeover not happen then I worry that we will have no club to return to.

Over the past few weeks many supporters group and the local press have requested that either Mel Morris or Stephen Pearce just come out and gives us fans some 'reassurance' that our club will be secure in the event of the takeover collapsing. This has been refused many times.

I have been involved with the club for around 15 years now and have attended many meetings including the supporters committee that meet every couple of months and improving the atmosphere etc etc... Always had a very good relationship and a mutual respect with both Mel & Stephen. There was plans for a protest after the game on Saturday (now been called off due to safety concerns with the Arena Vaccines) and originally this could have simply been avoided by either of them coming out to give us fans reassurance. I asked the question a couple of days ago and they have refused to come out and say 'anything'.

It does not need a genius to work out that this is an absolute disgrace of respect for us fans. The same people who asked fans to donate their Season Ticket money to the club in the middle of a pandemic to help it be run as opposed to having a refund. The absolute pure cheek of it is astounding.

When things go silent and when people in authority refuse to speak to the biggest stakeholders of this football club, which if you didn't know, is us fans, then questions and concerns need to be raised and answered and unfortunately certain people are hiding - draw your own conclusions on that.

The focus without doubt needs to be on the game on Saturday but irrespective of the outcome, Derby County are in serious danger and as fans we need to act. Do not say to me that it will all be okay if we stay up, it won't be. Do not be naïve to think that. We are in a huge mess. There is a reason why accounts get published and that is so fans can understand the situation of our club. This is way overdue, why?.

Mel Morris has invested alot of money in this football club but whilst doing so has made us an absolute embarrassment in the football world and has failed. Selling the stadium to himself was done because he overspent and screwed up. So many thought it was clever, it really wasn't - it was hiding his mistakes as custodian to this football club which resulted in the football club no longer owning the biggest asset which in turn will make any takeover complicated. Let's not even go there with the Arab failed takeover, due diligence of any interested party failed big time there and weeks were wasted with it.

Under his command we have seen absolute appalling recruitment. This has never been addressed despite being raised time and time again. In fact, we may as well appoint him as manager as I always thought it should be the football club manager that targets & buys players. I dont need to name names with this one but there is a player at this club who has never played second time around and is getting paid very well, wonder why...

Clearly our season has been nothing short of a shambles. You cannot blame the kids and you cannot blame the players to a degree, it isn't there fault they are not good enough. The captain of the ship is responsible for this. Important we back the lads tomorrow and hope and pray they get us over the line to keep our Championship status.

This post is not a rant. Its reality that our football club and the fab Derby people that work within it are in serious danger of being no more. Please do not say to me that this derails tomorrow, I am sorry but the situation is far worse than the potential relegation we face tomorrow. Feel free to bury your heads in the sands but things need to change at Derby County and quick before it really is to late.

I would say to Mel & Stephen, feel free to respond and give us reassurances, but they have already refused to do so. That my friends is all you need to know about who we currently have running our beloved Derby County.

Stephen Pearce needs to resign. Any CEO of any business does not hide like what you have.

Mel Morris needs to depart this football club and take all the debt with him. The stadium should be given back to the football club and included in any sale. He should swallow his pride and sell this great football club to the 'best' candidate and not just who he prefers. We both know there are offers on the table and you know who they are from.

After all, you are Derby through and through - said no one ever but you.

Nick

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good post @REDOXO

I do criticise that forum but some good content on there- I googled it and it was back in May 2021, so yeah...a strong take on it and a lot of good points. Their wage bill is ever vanishing, apparently it's only £1m per month now!

Talking of humility, the following threads- and I'm not one to gloat, but the following threads make for interesting reading in this context...

Quote

Signing of Rooney and what a clever wheeze it was

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/33154-how-much-is-rooney-really-on/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/33191-damned/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/34167-derby-preston-32red-the-star-clause/

 

Quote

Talk of trouble on the horizon about FFP- and the fans view

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/32065-trouble-ahead/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/32054-soft-transfer-embargo/

 

Quote

This aged well...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37683-please-don’t-blame-morris-and-pearce/

...As did this!

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/35363-amortisation-policy/

The original stadium sale thread might make for good reading but could take some finding.

Not much humility on display in these periods! They were so smart...their owner was so smart- it's hard to muster up significant sympathy for some of the fans on there I'd say.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[sh1t_ref_again]

A good article for anyone who wants a simplified overview

https://www.football365.com/news/derby-county-administration-failure-opinion

[REDOXO]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Good post @REDOXO

I do criticise that forum but some good content on there- I googled it and it was back in May 2021, so yeah...a strong take on it and a lot of good points. Their wage bill is ever vanishing, apparently it's only £1m per month now!

Talking of humility, the following threads- and I'm not one to gloat, but the following threads make for interesting reading in this context...

 

 

The original stadium sale thread might make for good reading but could take some finding.

Not much humility on display in these periods! They were so smart...their owner was so smart- it's hard to muster up significant sympathy for some of the fans on there I'd say.

BuckTaylor spelled it all out in April 2019 and didn’t he catch shit for it. God I hope some people have given the decker an apology. Probably not!

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

BuckTaylor spelled it all out in April 2019 and didn’t he catch shit for it. God I hope some people have given the decker an apology. Probably not!

Yes he did, that was a good thread, with some strong points...not entirely in the way he laid out but he suggested big trouble could be on the way.

Found the thread which contains stuff about the stadium sale once the financial results had emerged...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31968-1718-financial-results/

A couple more interesting ones too...these I found when looking for the one in Spring 2019.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31925-business-steps-to-administraton/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31992-mel-morris/

Not read many of the threads in depth or anything, but I bet not many are expressing concern etc.

[REDOXO]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes he did, that was a good thread, with some strong points...not entirely in the way he laid out but he suggested big trouble could be on the way.

Found the thread which contains stuff about the stadium sale once the financial results had emerged...

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31968-1718-financial-results/

A couple more interesting ones too...these I found when looking for the one in Spring 2019.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31925-business-steps-to-administraton/

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/31992-mel-morris/

Not read many of the threads in depth or anything, but I bet not many are expressing concern etc.

No not really. The posts about the EFL being somehow at fault or are picking on Derby over the last few days are also nauseating. Good luck to Derby and there fans rebuilding. Also good luck to Wycombe with all the impending law suits that are bound to follow. The administrators have one hell of a job with this one. And that’s not even taking criminal law into account. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

30 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

No not really. The posts about the EFL being somehow at fault or are picking on Derby over the last few days are also nauseating. Good luck to Derby and there fans rebuilding. Also good luck to Wycombe with all the impending law suits that are bound to follow. The administrators have one hell of a job with this one. And that’s not even taking criminal law into account. 

When I get time, I might read those threads- all those I posted, will take some time but I expect to see a lot of crowing...

Yep, the Derby as victims narrative even to today, that is nauseating- for those fans, let alone the gloaters I struggle to muster up much sympathy. Sensible fans however that's a different matter of course.

Yep, good luck in rebuilding, good luck to Wycombe- certain people ie Matt Hughes, Kieran Maguire to name two- these can also feel vindication in their views about their compliance.

It's funny, there should be a thread front and centre on DCFCFans stating that Mel Morris admitted they failed FFP. Maybe not pinned but that's a watershed moment!

Criminal law eh? Wonder if any q's will be asked of the auditors...

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

That word humility again @REDOXO

...

I don't particularly think that Couhig has a case. How you quantify the losses, who you pursue etc I think elements of wishful thinking exist. Let alone within the League system where clubs and the League agree to arbitrate.

What is striking however, is the tone of Derby fans below the line. Crowing, arrogant. The one who said the bit about allowed to pick own amortisation policy under FFP and only failed when restated is baffling.

Even a) Going into administration and b) Owner admitting that when restated, accounts to 2018 fail FFP, wow still like this.

I don't remember such arrogance and shrillness combined with claims of unfair treatment for so long from Birmingham or Sheffield Wednesday fans when FFP failed.

Derby's delaying tactics helped to prevent any penalty from being applied to 2020/21.

Tbh it's possible that I'm blaming the minority unfairly but in this instance. Think of the fans? Half inclined in DCFC case to say bollocks to the fans.

EFL process must go through all layers or significant agreed penalties ie administration plus the - 9, - 3 suspended with business plan. Plus the - 3 remains in play for non-payment of wages and CVA - 15 NEXT season if no agreement. Everything has to apply in full, fans or not, new owners or not.

IF there was some default transfer from Mel to Dell, surely EFL regs couldn't be bypassed just like that?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Dolman_Stand]

Not sure if it's been posted already but Wycombe looking at legal action now claiming they are down £15m to 20m from not being a Championship club this season.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

[REDOXO]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

The whole thing with reporting is sketchy. What will be found now is anyone’s guess. I really don’t know the rules regarding arbitration so I will defer to you, however this is now a shiftiest that breaks or could break completely new ground….Which anyone with an attention span longer than a goldfish could have predicted. 
 

Asfor who would get pursued  who knows. But that will all be about what becomes uncovered and enters the public domain. This is about to get uglier than ugly because the EFL for whatever reason didn’t relegate a club that six games later it was found were an utter financial mess. 
 

The EFL and the appeals commission have a lot to answer for as do the board of Derby and the main player, who will I suspect bring loads of people down with him. 
 

The EFL has been severely compromised and now looks like a weak Lilly liveried institution..That’s not good for anyone!

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

Was always under the impression that Parachute Payments no longer due to clubs promoted back were redistributed back among PL clubs.

On a side note, to any readers from DCFCFans I don't want the club to go bust but a good period of suffering on the pitch would be quite warranted.

Full implementation of EFL regulations is a must.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

If a promoted Championship club comes straight back down they get 2 years PPs.  The 3rd years gets divvied back amongst the PL clubs, not the championship…..it’s crap, but that’s what happens.