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havanatopia

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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I've read varying stuff on that but you might well be right.

I know that football creditors set in stone and MSD too but beyond that...rules did change for HMRC in 2020 IIRC.

From Kieran Maguire in the Derby Telegraph

"HMRC are now what is now referred to as a 'preferential creditor' which means they would have to be paid in full outstanding taxes which are owed."

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, chinapig said:

From Kieran Maguire in the Derby Telegraph

"HMRC are now what is now referred to as a 'preferential creditor' which means they would have to be paid in full outstanding taxes which are owed."

Thanks, tax though- certainly there wouldn't be any corporation tax as that's only on profits- erm, unused tax losses? PAYE is deducted at source so surely that would be due, trying to think what else there would be in terms of tax or owings to HMRC.

Read elsewhere it's about 2/3.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks, tax though- certainly there wouldn't be any corporation tax as that's only on profits- erm, unused tax losses? PAYE is deducted at source so surely that would be due, trying to think what else there would be in terms of tax or owings to HMRC.

VAT?

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)

Just to reiterate what I said earlier though, it's fairly stunning that Derby fans- given the mess their club are in was in no small part due to schemes to try and get round the regs- are suggesting schemes to try to, er, get round the regs would you believe!

Those two I posted are a great example.

2 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Shame. Only 12 points you say?

Oh this is just a segment- there are still outstanding FFP charges/penalties/agreed settlements that have not been resolved.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted

I notice on Twitter that there are a variety of uninformed fans of PL clubs asking in relation to this "What about the points deduction for PL ESL clubs"?

Now here and in Europe they and the other  got off very lightly, but they're very separate issues, I can't be bothered to pick apart their arguments on here but they really don't have a clue...either in the admin or P&S context.

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Sir Geoff

Sir Geoff

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not sure the Administrator could afford to terminate his contract, so they are stuck with each other aren’t they?

Bit of a blow to Wazza and the players as they all took pay deferrals during covid. Rooney's was quite significant too according to 'The Game' podcast.

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Davefevs

Davefevs

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Could well be more to come. According to the BBC report, the issue of the stadium sale still hasn’t been finalised, and that could result in further points deductions. 

The other EFL charges haven’t been resolved yet.  The 12 points isn’t the end of it, is it?  Mel’s already admitted they breached FFP in 2018.

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)

IIRC, he stated that once accounts restated then there was a £4m/4 point deduction to 2018.

It's possible that he would like to settle on 4 points for the entire saga...I'd hope that option is a no go. The 9 + 3 as an overarching settlement has been speculated on.

I might also add, some Derby fans believe that Mel Morris owes the club for the ground or at least Gellaw Newco 202 or 204 would...that raises questions from an accounting POV as their 2017/18 accounts state that the cash flow that year includes £81.1m, probably the EFL would also be interested from yet another P&S angle.

image.png.cf22e0b0265de446410d1c7da521e48a.png

image.thumb.png.8950928e6ceb31c9e4b82b702ea28b6c.png

If it's a transaction still to be paid, then it shouldn't appear in that section surely? Likewise if it's offsetting against debt- if it's offsetting then surely he would owe them nothing?

They can't have it both ways can they.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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BetterRedthanBlue

BetterRedthanBlue

Posted
Posted

So HMRC are a preferential creditor. I would imagine the MSD would probably be one of the main creditors as well. 

Cocu and Keogh will not get as much as they hoped I would imagine. 

Given the debt they have to HMRC and MSD and the fact that the stadium is NOT in the admin package any potential interested parties would surely think twice.

I doubt they'll be able to renew the deals for Davies, Baldock at the lot as they were only agreed short term EFL deals. 

Derby have put themselves in the s**t trying to get around the rules has led them to this situation.

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PhilC

PhilC

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

As it's an EFL issue I assume that punishment could potentially continue to be dolled out to Derby even if/when they are in L1? Presumably it isn't confined to the Championship just because that is the division within which they committed their sins.

 

That's correct. The only time the EFL can't intervene is if a club get promoted to The Premier League. (You may know that but just using it as an example) The EFL can still dish out punishments if Derby end up in League One (or even League Two!)

 

I assume if a team called something Rovers got relegated out of EFL to non League then again, the EFL wouldn't be able to apply punishments,  but unsure about that one.

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, BetterRedThanBlue said:

So HMRC are a preferential creditor. I would imagine the MSD would probably be one of the main creditors as well. 

Cocu and Keogh will not get as much as they hoped I would imagine. 

Given the debt they have to HMRC and MSD and the fact that the stadium is NOT in the admin package any potential interested parties would surely think twice.

I doubt they'll be able to renew the deals for Davies, Baldock at the lot as they were only agreed short term EFL deals. 

Derby have put themselves in the s**t trying to get around the rules has led them to this situation.

EFL/FA conditions stipulate that Football Creditors must be paid in full. If they are classed as such then...

MSD would be the top creditor, secured debt and creditors are- HMRC are secondary preferential creditors IIRC.

Jagielka and Baldock expire in January, the rest of the signings in the summer.

Yep, last line nails it- wholly self-inflicted.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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chinapig

chinapig

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, BetterRedThanBlue said:

So HMRC are a preferential creditor. I would imagine the MSD would probably be one of the main creditors as well. 

Cocu and Keogh will not get as much as they hoped I would imagine. 

Kieran Maguire has said that once Derby come out of administration MSD Holdings will have to be paid in full.

Cocu and Keogh are football creditors so have to be paid in full as I understand it.

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

EFL/FA conditions stipulate that Football Creditors must be paid in full. If they are classed as such then...

MSD would be the top creditor, secured debt and creditors are- HMRC are secondary preferential creditors IIRC.

Jagielka and Baldock expire in January, the rest of the signings in the su,,er.

Yep, last line nails it- wholly self-inflicted.

Worth highlighting that a majority of creditors must agree to any CVA and that could be problematic.

MSD can only get their money back from the ground, so one option might be for them to pick up the tax & footballing debt, force a CVA with non-preferential creditors & buy both club & ground (cheaper than it was initially offered but it's a much diminished product.) On the other hand maybe they've lost interest, or might acquire only as a flip to somebody else, else force the whole shebang into liquidation and get monies back from development options on the ground. Derby fans must be hoping Dell don't want a new production/ storage facility in the UK.

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REDOXO

REDOXO

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Worth highlighting that a majority of creditors must agree to any CVA and that could be problematic.

MSD can only get their money back from the ground, so one option might be for them to pick up the tax & footballing debt, force a CVA with non-preferential creditors & buy both club & ground (cheaper than it was initially offered but it's a much diminished product.) On the other hand maybe they've lost interest, or might acquire only as a flip to somebody else, else force the whole shebang into liquidation and get monies back from development options on the ground. Derby fans must be hoping Dell don't want a new production/ storage facility in the UK.

Amazon might want something. :laugh:!

This whole shitfest is tiring. So many disappearing up themselves trying to explain away this financial nightmare over months and years. The lies that have been told to cover up years of idiocy are horrific and now a diminishing group of supporters are prepared to keep arguing black is white. 
 

The hubris of some on the outside and inside of this is also insane, those on the outside often being egged on by people inside the club. 
 

The idea that the EFL are acting against the supporters of Derby County is insane, but they now finally have indisputable evidence that the owner and board of the club have been cheating since 2016 and that cheating has cost the league positions of other clubs (the points deductions would have relegated Derby at least once) this will cause problems for years to come  

Pick the bones out of this! The EFL having to appeal a decision made by an outside party that effectively exonerated this effed up nightmare of a club! Who on earth thinks that was a good idea! 
 

I read a thread earlier on DCFC FORUM about how the rules of the EFL should be changed. Yes they should, to stop a shiester from appealing to external panels and somehow obtaining rulings that are clearly flawed. Guess Mark Ashton could be brought bacK to the EFL THAT WILL LEARN EM! SIGH!

 

Edited by REDOXO
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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)

Small note, amusing to see some of the Villa fans...calling out Derby for cheating. Yes their rap sheet in terms of sheer coverup was quite a bit less but if not promoted, I could have seen the EFL imposing stringent conditions to keep within FFP, as well as a throrough investigation for the most recent accounts.

https://www.villatalk.com/topic/22025-derby-county/

They would have had a SIGNIFICANT hole set to arise.

@REDOXO Make you right. Some sort of system where the EFL handed down sanctions could be best, or some kind of swift system where the charge is known and the only hearings are a) A sanctioning heating and b) The final avenue for appeal to the LAP. Talking of such characters appealing, wonder if Nick De Marco is owed cash by them- he represented both DCFC and SWFC vs the EFL.

Arguing black is white sums it up well, there is some bizarre and contorted logic on that forum- among sections of that fanbase!

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REDOXO

REDOXO

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Small note, amusing to see some of the Villa fans...calling out Derby for cheating. Yes their rap sheet in terms of sheer coverup was quite a bit less but if not promoted, I could have seen the EFL imposing stringent conditions to keep within FFP, as well as a throrough investigation for the most recent accounts.

https://www.villatalk.com/topic/22025-derby-county/

They will be relegated one day! Just like QPR

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

They will be relegated one day! Just like QPR

Oh yeah and the sanctions are bigger this time...I'd be surprised if the EFL are not keeping powder dry.

Villa, some of their fans going on about ESL and how fans shouldn't be punished for ownership...those ones don't have a clue that's all I'll say.

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted (edited)

More bad news...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/09/22/middlesbrough-pursuing-legal-case-against-derby-alleged-finance/

Behind a paywall.

I also remember highlighting Steve Lansdown's Tweet in August 2019 after we won at Derby.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/derby-county-disaster-another-cruel-5955318

Seems like it was indeed in reflection of beating them due to the FFP situation.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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