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7 hours ago, Hxj said:

They don't but this a one way only adjustment on this matter, it's 12 points or less than 12 points, so that is overall positive.  The FFP points deduction would be more of an issue due to the uncertainty and cummalative effect.

We are 80 days and counting to the January transfer window.  At which point the squad will be destroyed by offers on the better players that the Administrators will have little option but to accept and in respect of players who want to move on.

Will the administrators have to accept the `best` offer on the table or will they have, in effect, a `reserve` price for players. Take Lawrence for example - if the best offer was, say, 500k (extreme example I know) would they be bound to accept it or can they say no, you`re taking the piss? 

Edited by Lanterne Rouge
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3 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Will the administrators have to accept the `best` offer on the table or will they have, in effect, a `reserve` price for players. Take Lawrence for example - if the best offer was, say, 500k (extreme example I know) would they be bound to accept it or can they say no, you`re taking the piss? 

Clearly there will be a commercial decision about what you do, that don't have to accept any offer, but the Administrators will have to justify themselves more than a benevolent owner would. However if his contract is up in the summer, this is his fifth season at Derby (@AnotherDerbyFan will know more than me) it clearly makes it more likely that he will be sold.  Plus do you want a player around who really doesn't want to play for you?

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11 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Will the administrators have to accept the `best` offer on the table or will they have, in effect, a `reserve` price for players. Take Lawrence for example - if the best offer was, say, 500k (extreme example I know) would they be bound to accept it or can they say no, you`re taking the piss? 

That would be case of the biter bit then, as Derby has been taking the piss for the last 4 years!

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2 hours ago, downendcity said:

That would be case of the biter bit then, as Derby has been taking the piss for the last 4 years!

Under Mel’s old model, Lawrence would probably still be worth £5m in the books, maybe slightly less now in final year.  But under new amortisation method, will be less than £1m.  Whether that will influence any fee the Administrators might accept I don’t know?

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Had a bit of a look today at it all and I have to say I'm a bit worried about the bar being low enough for Derby to overturn.

Their accounts clearly show a pattern to 2018 of escalating spending and 2019 as well no doubt if we ever see those would show substantial losses.

As I understand it the Club shall bear burden of proof but in these types of cases it's balance of probability IIRC. One metric I saw suggested anything above 50-50 and the Club win.

The EFL regs don't seem as specific as they might be, in terms of definitions.

Thoughts @Hxj what chance do we think of it being overturned? I've read the regs and they don't seem as specific as they might be.

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I think I have come up with a solution that satisfies all parties.

Firstly, allow Derby to keep stringing everybody along.

Secondly, all Championship teams fail to field a team for every fixture with Derby thus forfeiting their matches and ensuring they get promoted automatically.

Thirdly, when they are gone accumulating a new record low points total in the Premiership, to beat their existing record. The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

Et voila, Derby get to be in the Premiership (for one season), and the EFL and it’s members get rid of a club that has no respect for the rules.

Of course, readmission could be allowed with a 30 point deduction for each of the first two seasons.

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2 minutes ago, GreedyHarry said:

I think I have come up with a solution that satisfies all parties.

Firstly, allow Derby to keep stringing everybody along.

Secondly, all Championship teams fail to field a team for every fixture with Derby thus forfeiting their matches and ensuring they get promoted automatically.

Thirdly, when they are gone accumulating a new record low points total in the Premiership, to beat their existing record. The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

Et voila, Derby get to be in the Premiership (for one season), and the EFL and it’s members get rid of a club that has no respect for the rules.

Of course, readmission could be allowed with a 30 point deduction for each of the first two seasons.

A great idea ? but once again I am sure Derby would go down the appeal route and mock the rules do wants the point. Derby continue to think they are above the law. The EFL just need to enforce their punishment appropriately 

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1 hour ago, GreedyHarry said:

I think I have come up with a solution that satisfies all parties.

Firstly, allow Derby to keep stringing everybody along.

Secondly, all Championship teams fail to field a team for every fixture with Derby thus forfeiting their matches and ensuring they get promoted automatically.

Thirdly, when they are gone accumulating a new record low points total in the Premiership, to beat their existing record. The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

Et voila, Derby get to be in the Premiership (for one season), and the EFL and it’s members get rid of a club that has no respect for the rules.

Of course, readmission could be allowed with a 30 point deduction for each of the first two seasons.

 

1 hour ago, hertsexile said:

A great idea ? but once again I am sure Derby would go down the appeal route and mock the rules do wants the point. Derby continue to think they are above the law. The EFL just need to enforce their punishment appropriately 

Not much scope for appeal in that scenario. No golden share if they don't agree or at best no fixtures to be allocated to them.

In this particular scenario, we're reliant on an Independent Panel- I read a suggestion that 'Unwell' Mel Morris is pushing this. 

He by amazing medical coincidence had Covid twice to the extent he was either in hospital or on a ventilator. Forget FFP, it's a matter for medical and scientific analysis!! :)

They are a scummy club though, I am starting to wonder at what point clubs can look seriously at their League membership let's say, I've never known a Championship regular to act like this for as long with such misplaced indignation. Scum. 

PS, Andronikou is the same guy who was at Portsmouth. He made multiple appeals there on various issues, don't think any succeeded he has form.

How many would actually miss Derby if they went pop? I have had great sympathy with every or most club insolvencies to date but am finding it hard to muster up all that much for the current iteration of Derby. 

Perhaps for greater good it would send shockwaves through the game and if HMRC don't blink it would also be beneficial. It won't happen though of course so it's fine to speculate.

Two more thoughts. Clubs under suspicion or accused of P&S/FFP breaches on the way up get stripped of their Parachute Payments on return. Would need either PL agreement or a truly Independent regulator for football.

On balance I wouldn't mind Derby not going bust. Being purchased by an asset stripper would be fitting however.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, GreedyHarry said:

The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

 

A few years ago weren't QPR threatened with something like this? If the eFL refused to have them, QPR would have gone from the Prem straight into the National League.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37412-derby-county-administration-with-the-slight-possibility-of-liquidation-still-there/page/171/#comments there's talk of a group making an offer to buy club, ground and training ground for £45 million.

Edited by 22A
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7 minutes ago, 22A said:

A few years ago weren't QPR threatened with something like this? If the eFL refused to have them, QPR would have gone from the Prem straight into the National League.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37412-derby-county-administration-with-the-slight-possibility-of-liquidation-still-there/page/171/#comments there's talk of a group making an offer to buy club, ground and training ground for £45 million.

IIRC the QPR threat was tied to any refusal to negotiate, go to Arbitration or pay up outright. They agreed to arbitrate and the EFL didn't seem unhappy at the prospect.

Some sort of auto hard Embargo combined with the obligation to still comply with FFP could be a good starting point for 

Yes saw that. I would be very interested to know the take of the EFL if the club and the assets- one of which went for £81m- going for £45m for the lot. That £45m isn't the sale price but doubtless a good chunk of debt,ie no sale price, pay down up to £45m in debt.

Stadium being included however?? Err...£81m in 2018.

Derby fans hope for a clean slate under the new owners if there is relegation this year.

While I get that, not I'd suggest while there are such downsized transactions. I'd hope that the EFL would look to take steps.

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@JamesBCFC

Administration appeal

It's a genuine disgrace that they are appealing it but they- and Andronikou in his Portsmouth days- have form, so though the audacity is shocking it is Derby and to an extent Andronikou. Probably late October to mid November.

FFP

That's still up for negotiation or a hearing. Mooted to be 9 pts plus a further 3 suspended and the usual business plan.

In the case of the 2nd, what I would like to see is a good catch-all approach, albeit I don't know if possible...

If avoid relegation this season by less than 9 pts- added to this season's total- down they go!

If relegated in any event- added to next seasons total- ie they start League One on -9 with a further 3 suspended and still in and around the business plan. The only way is up!

If survive by more than 9 pts, then next season ie start next season on -9 etc in the Championship- down the bottom of the League.

Think of it as a nice game of snakes and ladders. ;)

They can keep haggling if they wish but they remain under embargo for many matters- and people are being disappointingly charitable, e.g. 32Red are forwarding some funding, Arsenal are letting them defer the Bielik instalment- as it goes there is a provision in terms of football creditors rule for this. For example if a club cannot meet their football creditor obligations as they fall due, then central funds/awards can be redirected in order to fulfil this or help to fulfil this. Ergo, a chunk of the next TV and Solidarity money should go to Arsenal for Bielik on release. that is to say instead of to Derby just send some to Arsenal if required and give Derby the remainder...unsure how TV and Solidarity money is distributed over a year/season however. I don't understand why that rule isn't automatic for clubs in administration what with the football creditors rule.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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@Davefevs @Mr Popodopolous

If there was ever a time to implement a salary cap - then that time is now.

Have a look at Australian Rules Footy - the salary cap works really well.

Its combined with a draft rather than academies, but clubs use it well. Clubs have a player limit.

An example would be Gold Coast Suns, who are really right at their limit - so they gave away their draft pick #19 - as long as the club that took it (#19 usually gets you a good young 18yr old to your club) took a player and paid their wages.

So Fremantle Dockers took pick #19 plus GCS player Will Brodie - it was a win / win

GCS got Brodies $500,000 a year salary off the books, and Fremantle got a decent player in Brodie AND used pick #19 to then land a really talented youngster from Geelong Cats.

 

It would take some doing - but with say, a club only being allowed 25 players on their 'senior' list , and 10 on a 'rookie' list (who can go to 'senior' if a player is long-term injured) - a national draft from an 'academy pool' (with teams having 1st option on their own academy player) - and a salary cap, then things would be so much more stable in English Football.

 

I know it would be a long term project - but hopefully someone will start the ball rolling soon.

Perhaps the EFL could fund a study.

It's really the only way to ensure a level playing field - and prevent another 'Bury' disaster.

 

2p

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@JamesBCFC

Administration appeal

It's a genuine disgrace that they are appealing it but they- and Andronikou in his Portsmouth days- have form, so though the audacity is shocking it is Derby and to an extent Andronikou. Probably late October to mid November.

FFP

That's still up for negotiation or a hearing. Mooted to be 9 pts plus a further 3 suspended and the usual business plan.

In the case of the 2nd, what I would like to see is a good catch-all approach, albeit I don't know if possible...

If avoid relegation this season by less than 9 pts- added to this season's total- down they go!

If relegated in any event- added to next seasons total- ie they start League One on -9 with a further 3 suspended and still in and around the business plan. The only way is up!

If survive by more than 9 pts, then next season ie start next season on -9 etc in the Championship- down the bottom of the League.

Think of it as a nice game of snakes and ladders. ;)

They can keep haggling if they wish but they remain under embargo for many matters- and people are being disappointingly charitable, e.g. 32Red are forwarding some funding, Arsenal are letting them defer the Bielik instalment- as it goes there is a provision in terms of football creditors rule for this. For example if a club cannot meet their football creditor obligations as they fall due, then central funds/awards can be redirected in order to fulfil this or help to fulfil this. Ergo, a chunk of the next TV and Solidarity money should go to Arsenal for Bielik on release. that is to say instead of to Derby just send some to Arsenal if required and give Derby the remainder...unsure how TV and Solidarity money is distributed over a year/season however. I don't understand why that rule isn't automatic for clubs in administration what with the football creditors rule.

Any points deduction will be this season, unless the penalty is awarded after some date in March…..and then the rules are as you suggest.

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Has Derby yet produced accounts yet? 

If I fail to submit my self assesment tax return on time I receive a fine, which escalates the longer I delay. I think I'm right in saying (because I've always submitted and paid on time) that any tax due can have a penalty applied depending how long payment is delayed. 

Something along these lines would sort clubs out in terms of submitting accounts with a sliding scale of points deductions for delayed submission of accounts. 

On that basis Derby would likely be in the Conference next season! 

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29 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Has Derby yet produced accounts yet? 

If I fail to submit my self assesment tax return on time I receive a fine, which escalates the longer I delay. I think I'm right in saying (because I've always submitted and paid on time) that any tax due can have a penalty applied depending how long payment is delayed. 

Something along these lines would sort clubs out in terms of submitting accounts with a sliding scale of points deductions for delayed submission of accounts. 

On that basis Derby would likely be in the Conference next season! 

Think Mr P or HXJ said that it is not the Administrator’s responsibility to produce the missing accounts, but I guess whoever buys them might have to.

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26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think Mr P or HXJ said that it is not the Administrator’s responsibility to produce the missing accounts, but I guess whoever buys them might have to.

Weren't accounts outstanding for some time ime even before administration?

Also, going back to the first time the 3 year period was being assesses 2018?) when projected accounts were required for the third year by March IIRC, weren't there a number of clubs late/very late in submitting accounts? 

As with somany aspects of ffp rules, it seems the EFL naively assumed that all clubs would not only comply but would do so to the letter and on time. 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think Mr P or HXJ said that it is not the Administrator’s responsibility to produce the missing accounts, but I guess whoever buys them might have to.

Does that mean that decisions will have to be made by the EFL or on appeal with some of the evidence missing? Surely not?

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On 12/10/2021 at 22:34, Hxj said:

Clearly there will be a commercial decision about what you do, that don't have to accept any offer, but the Administrators will have to justify themselves more than a benevolent owner would. However if his contract is up in the summer, this is his fifth season at Derby (@AnotherDerbyFan will know more than me) it clearly makes it more likely that he will be sold.  Plus do you want a player around who really doesn't want to play for you?

Yep, final year. To keep things simple, only Bielik, Bird, Knight, Sibley and Jozwiak are currently contacted beyond the end of the season as a result of embargo restrictions.

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@JamesBCFC

Administration appeal

It's a genuine disgrace that they are appealing it but they- and Andronikou in his Portsmouth days- have form, so though the audacity is shocking it is Derby and to an extent Andronikou. Probably late October to mid November.

FFP

That's still up for negotiation or a hearing. Mooted to be 9 pts plus a further 3 suspended and the usual business plan.

In the case of the 2nd, what I would like to see is a good catch-all approach, albeit I don't know if possible...

If avoid relegation this season by less than 9 pts- added to this season's total- down they go!

If relegated in any event- added to next seasons total- ie they start League One on -9 with a further 3 suspended and still in and around the business plan. The only way is up!

If survive by more than 9 pts, then next season ie start next season on -9 etc in the Championship- down the bottom of the League.

Think of it as a nice game of snakes and ladders. ;)

They can keep haggling if they wish but they remain under embargo for many matters- and people are being disappointingly charitable, e.g. 32Red are forwarding some funding, Arsenal are letting them defer the Bielik instalment- as it goes there is a provision in terms of football creditors rule for this. For example if a club cannot meet their football creditor obligations as they fall due, then central funds/awards can be redirected in order to fulfil this or help to fulfil this. Ergo, a chunk of the next TV and Solidarity money should go to Arsenal for Bielik on release. that is to say instead of to Derby just send some to Arsenal if required and give Derby the remainder...unsure how TV and Solidarity money is distributed over a year/season however. I don't understand why that rule isn't automatic for clubs in administration what with the football creditors rule.

I think you're being a bit harsh by calling it a disgrace. Based on the discussions we've had on the subject, you must surely concede that there is some merit to the appeal. You didn't say Wigan's appeal was a disgrace, yet their justification of the Covid impact was even weaker than ours.

The season the P&S deduction occurs should be this season and no later. With what you're advocating, you may as well just implement an automatic relegation and save everyone a lot of wasted time.

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Has Derby yet produced accounts yet? 

If I fail to submit my self assesment tax return on time I receive a fine, which escalates the longer I delay. I think I'm right in saying (because I've always submitted and paid on time) that any tax due can have a penalty applied depending how long payment is delayed. 

Something along these lines would sort clubs out in terms of submitting accounts with a sliding scale of points deductions for delayed submission of accounts. 

On that basis Derby would likely be in the Conference next season! 

I'm led to believe that a club doesn't have to submit accounts after going into administration? I could be wrong on that though.
P&S submissions would still be due for all relevant periods so it's not as if we can escape punishment by hiding accounts... they even saw provisional accounts before we went into administration anyway.
Don't forget, the delay in submitting the accounts was because of the ongoing charge, appeal, and then subsequent discussions to produce a set of accounts both the club and EFL were happy with.

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34 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

You didn't say Wigan's appeal was a disgrace, yet their justification of the Covid impact was even weaker than ours.

Wasn't Wigan's appeal essentially that they had been screwed by a crap owner who put them in administration for his own purposes so they should be let off or am I misremembering?

More a case of feeble grounds for appeal than a disgrace perhaps, though I don't recall if there was any attempt to cook the books admittedly.

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41 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Don't forget, the delay in submitting the accounts was because of the ongoing charge, appeal, and then subsequent discussions to produce a set of accounts both the club and EFL were happy with.

Iirc the EFL said the revised accounts were submitted within the agreed, slightly extended, deadline.

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1 minute ago, chinapig said:

Wasn't Wigan's appeal essentially that they had been screwed by a crap owner who put them in administration for his own purposes so they should be let off or am I misremembering?

More a case of feeble grounds for appeal than a disgrace perhaps, though I don't recall if there was any attempt to cook the books admittedly.

With Wigan yeah feeble excuse, justice seemed to have been done in the end. Having said that there were for a time wild rumours about betting in the Far East being tied to it somehow. That said on the evidence, it wasn't force majeure. Don't think the final conclusion of those claims ever got reported on.

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45 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I think you're being a bit harsh by calling it a disgrace. Based on the discussions we've had on the subject, you must surely concede that there is some merit to the appeal. You didn't say Wigan's appeal was a disgrace, yet their justification of the Covid impact was even weaker than ours.

The season the P&S deduction occurs should be this season and no later. With what you're advocating, you may as well just implement an automatic relegation and save everyone a lot of wasted time.

In truth, the context in which I called, maybe called rather than call - it a disgrace was that it was/is just yet another attempt to wriggle off the hook. Definitely a degree of exasperation, final straw etc.

Some merit? I'm unsure either way, £20m of income from say mid March 2020 to end of June 2020 is a chunk for sure but then didn't 8k season ticket holders leave cash in the club? Plus turning down bids for Buchanan and potentially Lawrence this summer- Rooney declaring that the latter not for sale at any price in August.

Strikes me that Mel was maybe trying to hang on for a while and the date of administration was fairly opportunistic.

A couple of weeks post the summer window  "Oh, can't sell players for 15 weeks now. Ample time to find a buyer". Whereas had administrators arrived in the summer, players surely would've been sold.

Would the losses not to an extent also be offset by the fact that HMRC and other debts were racking up, instalments defaulted on, zero cash to Cocu yet you said. MSD support. All that makes me think that the running costs- that's not just wages but running costs including these, everything- of the group aren't all that low.

Wigan's case in hindsight was without merit, foundation etc. However they also (as far as I recall anyway) didn't seriously and persistently tried to swerve the regs.

Yeah ultimately agreed, although it was a creative idea that covered a fair few bases perhaps.

On a wider note I still like the idea of future financial information, combined with soft sanctions perhaps including regular checks and the projections in March bringing about the deduction for a club in that particular season. Easier now given the fixed asset loophole has gone and the amortisation one should be tidied up.

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Report on Derby- John Percy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/14/special-report-inside-derby-countys-desperate-battle-survival/

There is a segment from the article that causes a bit of concern- the EFL should have expected dirty tricks.

Quote

Derby’s long-running row with the EFL could be pivotal to a sale. The feud was reignited earlier this week after Quantuma lodged an appeal against the club’s 12-point deduction for going into administration.

After receiving legal advice from sports lawyer Nick De Marco, Quantuma are arguing that the punishment is unreasonable due to the impact of Covid-19 on finances.

However, the EFL is said to be shocked at Derby’s appeal as it believes the club’s financial problems clearly pre-date Covid.  

There are also suspicions from rival clubs that it is an attempt to reduce the nine-point deduction for historical financial breaches which is also hanging over the club.

Wigan’s own appeal over the punishment for administration was rejected last August, and Derby’s case will be heard by a disciplinary commission within a month.

They don't learn- the EFL should have been prepared for something like this and should seek to crush Derby in all honesty, hammer them from all angles. Crush the bastards.

No surprise to see that pos representing them too.

They are under embargo for many reasons, until no accounts at CH these remain- new owners have FFP maybe to deal with, or a 2 year embargo mooted in lieu of an agreed business plan as well as the accounts to the EFL, the P&S reasons, HMRC- the EFL need to show no mercy and give no quarter to such a horrible club with entitled fans.

If the stadium goes back significantly under value, dig in over that- Derby seem to have declared war on the EFL, it's about time the EFL and rival clubs went at Derby with everything and do so until such time as their horrible entitled club learn some humility.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t they have the option to add points on also if the Club don’t work with the EFL.  They can also save points for co-operation.

If true, I’d just cancel their fixtures now.  Had enough of this crap.  They cheated, they know they cheated.

The courts would regard them as vexatious litigants and bar then from further actions. Sadly the EFL has no such authority and wouldn't have the guts to use it if it did.

Weak and naive are two words that come to mind. Let's hope Tracey Crouch gets the external regulator she wants.

Edited by chinapig
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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t they have the option to add points on also if the Club don’t work with the EFL.  They can also save points for co-operation.

If true, I’d just cancel their fixtures now.  Had enough of this crap.  They cheated, they know they cheated.

and they been cheating for a while, give them the option of 12 points deducted for the next 3 seasons or 18 for 2

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23 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The courts would regard them as vexatious litigants and bar then from further actions. Sadly the EFL has no such authority and wouldn't have the guts to use it if it did.

Weak and naive are two words that come to mind. Let's hope Tracey Crouch gets the external regulator she wants.

Is this correct? EFL regs contain an agreement to arbitrate and seem to basically forbid court action as part of their terms of membership. You could go to court but you cannot participate in the EFL.

image.png.eada0ccaa01e8ea0e68f3323703a5dc2.png

Only remedies appear to be Sections 67 and 68 of the Arbitration Act.

image.png.39ee85a6c6d721317755ff2d30623110.png

What would happen if all 23 clubs collectively refused to play them?

On another note, surely it is up to the clubs and the League ultimately on 

@Davefevs  I thought Chansiri was bad with his "Oh? I thought it could be done" but he's got nothing and I mean nothing on these *******. Tbh comparing the two his crimes are very, very small beer. Tbh Harvey seemed awfully accommodating to him so I can even see why he thought it to an extent.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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