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13 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh I saw that as well.

I wondered if it's automatically delivered upon entering administration? The EFL might feel they want the option to expel a club pretty quickly if an admin goes badly or liquidation becomes obvious. If they get the notice in straight away then the option is there ready to go. Might also explain why it's been withdrawn, as it seems the admin is going fairly smoothly.

Good point, might well be. Bury of course had fixtures suspended and were eventually expelled and Bolton seemed to have some kind of deadline/notice period. Bury were in an insolvency situation but still owned by Dale IIRC, and Bolton I think were in administration- it's harder to say how routine it is as those two played out in the public domain more than this one...Wigan I don't recall but that could be a difference between going into administration mid-season and the starting a season in administration.

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Love the bit about not being able to play youngsters because that would mean they couldn’t get a free transfer in.  If Rooney thought they would’ve played normally, then why is looking at costlier players (albeit on free transfers)?  Cake an eat it.

Cake and eat it big time.

Done a little bit of reading and this time DCFCFans seems to have an answer...it's in the articles of association somewhere.

1805021776_Screenshot_20211124-091609_Ac

Seems to cover it.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Having said that, their administrators seem very bullish- and one tactic that was mooted could be a goer, which I've never heard of in a football context. Helping to fund a shortfall if needed through non-refundable deposits from prospective buyers.

They are also talking about putting the club and ground or club and ground companies back into one holding company...significant FFP issue there IMO, 20 year lease, rent- fair value rent for FFP purposes, of course the cost of the ground mooted as £20m ie the cost of MSD debenture.

Hope they survive off the pitch but feel that they deserve quite a hard landing financially speaking for a while.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/supporters-group-meeting-with-quantuma-23-11-2021/

It also says that bids for players have been turned down.

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16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Haha would definitely be going in disguise given some of the posts about Derby! More sensibly, yeah whatever corporate area dresscode is, no display of alliegance etc.

This might interest us all. The usual q's and special pleading but in amongst it, reference to suspension of withdrawal of membership. Wasn't aware it was even on the table!?

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/efl-response-to-ramstrust-questions/

Question 1.

Am I correct in recalling that the 'old' club shop used to stock subtle BCFC ties?  Tried to buy one online before heading to the Riverside but had no joy.  If anyone can find a source (I can't) i'd appreciate a link.  

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3 hours ago, JackofromSanJavier said:

Am I correct in recalling that the 'old' club shop used to stock subtle BCFC ties?  Tried to buy one online before heading to the Riverside but had no joy.  If anyone can find a source (I can't) i'd appreciate a link.  

I bought a club tie back in about 1992 so they defo used to sell them. 

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Thought I would update the Derby points position.  Hull wining three in a row and Cardiff two out of has not helped. Derby wining one and drawing two in the last three hasn't really made much impact,

As regards Derby -

With 22 (gross) points from 19 games that gives them a generous season total with no deduction of 53 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction a net score of 32 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 49 points, with Cardiff & Hull on 18 points on target for an ungenerous 44 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 43 points from 27 games, in line with a 10th place performance.

 

Edited by Hxj
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1 minute ago, Hxj said:

Thought I would update the Derby points position.  Hull wining three in a row and Cardiff two out of has not helped Derby wining one and drawing two in the last three hasn't really made much impact,

As regards Derby -

With 22 (gross) points from 19 games that gives them a generous season total with no deduction of 53 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction a net score of 32 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 49 points, with Cardiff & Hull on 18 points on target for an ungenerous 44 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 43 points from 27 games, in line with a 10th place performance.

Plus they have an already small squad, that may well get yet smaller in January. This is unlikely to increase their chances of winning points.

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51 minutes ago, cider11 said:

Derby still burning through cash, a £1.2mil loss in the last 8 weeks

It would help if journalists could understand what they are writing about!

Whilst the headline figure is a loss of £1.2 million the stated income includes a loan of £1.25 million from MSD.  The actual cash deficit for the football club was nearer £2.5 million which annualises to over £16 million a year.

 

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Had a quick look at it all, have to say their running costs are remarkably low for a Championship club- granted it's a snapshot but the whole club only costs in cash terms up to £20m or not much more than in a year to run??

No sign of rent, let alone arguably a fair value one on Pride Park either...hopefully the EFL are taking note.

Sevco 5112- to 30th June 2018

image.png.0161e1f87b994cf1ef6b00d8a1605e89.png

Cost of Sales was £52,576,437 and seems to have been a further £23,232,060 in administrative expenses.

Now after admittedly 2 months of a 12 month reporting period...

The latest picture

image.thumb.png.068dc7ae74d90de505fb8adc4f8c0a7e.png

Lots of devil in the detail- is this just club wages or inclusive of all up to and including PAYE, NI etc?

Remember too that this is cash it seems- e.g. MSD loan wouldn't count towards revenue for FFP and non cash items e.g. Depreciation and Amortisation of Player Registrations seem not to appear in this.

The running costs of the other companies appear to be non-existent though pretty much- unless they are all included in the above. Of course they are transferring revenue from the other companies to the club but the business expenses- hope the EFL are examining all of this forensically and have more detailed information to hand.

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A bad weekend of results for Derby - Reading (21st), Cardiff (20th) and Hull (19th) all won.

With 22 (gross) points from 20 games Derby have a generous season total with no deduction of 51 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction that's net points of 30 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 53 points (net of the six points), with Cardiff & Hull on 21 points on target for an ungenerous 48 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 47 points from 26 games, in line with a 3rd place performance.

They really need to win next Saturday to drag another club into the mix.

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30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

A bad weekend of results for Derby - Reading (21st), Cardiff (20th) and Hull (19th) all won.

With 22 (gross) points from 20 games Derby have a generous season total with no deduction of 51 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction that's net points of 30 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 53 points (net of the six points), with Cardiff & Hull on 21 points on target for an ungenerous 48 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 47 points from 26 games, in line with a 3rd place performance.

They really need to win next Saturday to drag another club into the mix.

Tonight’s result will not have helped and, hopefully, the late winner will have disillusioned them and made them less competitive for Saturday.

Was it against Derby that Semenyo got his harsh red card?

If it was, perhaps he will play and score to get his revenge.

Edited by PHILINFRANCE
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1 hour ago, Hxj said:

A bad weekend of results for Derby - Reading (21st), Cardiff (20th) and Hull (19th) all won.

With 22 (gross) points from 20 games Derby have a generous season total with no deduction of 51 points.  That would see them survive in all but one of the last 10 seasons. 

With the 21 point deduction that's net points of 30 that would see them relegated in all of the last 10 seasons.

However Reading in 21st place are currently on target for an ungenerous 53 points (net of the six points), with Cardiff & Hull on 21 points on target for an ungenerous 48 points.  This simply demonstrates the nearly impossible position Derby are in. Based on current performance Derby need 47 points from 26 games, in line with a 3rd place performance.

They really need to win next Saturday to drag another club into the mix.

I’m confused.  I thought we were only outside of bottom three because of points deductions.  And now you tell me Derby have picked us less points than us regardless of the EFL. ???

As have Barnsley, Hull, Peterborough and Cardiff.

Well I’ll be jiggered!

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Honest from Rooney.

Derby manager Wayne Rooney told BBC Radio Derby:

"We started very well even before we scored, on the front foot.

"We scored the goal and we dropped back too quickly, didn't get the press right like we worked on.

"I said to the lads at half-time the warning signs are there, we had to wake up, we had to be better. We were giving the ball away too easily.

"It's a tough one to take but I think we got what we deserved."

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As the article alludes, if it was a normal business, it would have no value and so why pay money for an asset that has negative value.

A football stadium has a very specific use and cannot be easliy or commercially used for other activities, which also makes me wonder why someone would build a stadium on the Fruit Market, but of course that is a totally different topic!

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12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Things just got very serious if this article is anywhere near accurate:

Wycombe and Middlesbrough’s claims total £50m!!

Good article too.

Interesting. You'd think the best that they can hope for is some sort of payment plan with HMRC. You know, pay £5m per year for 6 years or something. HMRC should absolutely not start writing off tax debt.

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Derby County could be liquidated is old news on here.

In order for Derby County to exit the Administration debts need to be paid in full.  Failing that the Administrators need to propose a Corporate Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) (which results in writing off of debt), which needs to be agreed by 75% of unsecured creditors, one £1 debt equals 1 vote.

HMRC's published position is that they will oppose any CVA where any unsecured creditor is treated more favourably than any other unsecured creditor.  Football creditors are unsecured creditors and the local pie supplier is not.  So if the CVA proposes that a football creditor is paid in full and the local pie supplier receives 25% (in both cases to meet the EFL requirements), HMRC should vote against.

The rub here is that HMRC have enough votes, 27.2 million, out of the total of 83,.4 million, to block any CVA.

If a CVA cannot be agreed then the only possible exit is by liquidation.

A further charge was registered by MSD at the end of November against the long lease training ground.  That effectively stops the property being realised to fund payments to unsecured creditors.

 

 

Edited by Hxj
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30 minutes ago, Hxj said:

A further charge was registered by MSD at the end of November against the long lease training ground.  That effectively stops the property being realised to fund payments to unsecured creditors.

Does your final sentence mean MSD put a charge on the training ground to stop Derby deciding who to pay and not to pay, I.e. protecting themselves and becoming a secured creditor?

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33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

protecting themselves and becoming a secured creditor?

It simplifies their rights, particularly if (for instance) they have lent further funds to the Football Club, or if the original charge (across the Stadium Group and Football Group) is repaid or otherwise dealt with, or entities (other than the football club are liquidated.

It also ensures that MSD are are at the front of the queue.

 

Edited by Hxj
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3 hours ago, Hxj said:

Derby County could be liquidated is old news on here.

In order for Derby County to exit the Administration debts need to be paid in full.  Failing that the Administrators need to propose a Corporate Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) (which results in writing off of debt), which needs to be agreed by 75% of unsecured creditors, one £1 debt equals 1 vote.

HMRC's published position is that they will oppose any CVA where any unsecured creditor is treated more favourably than any other unsecured creditor.  Football creditors are unsecured creditors and the local pie supplier is not.  So if the CVA proposes that a football creditor is paid in full and the local pie supplier receives 25% (in both cases to meet the EFL requirements), HMRC should vote against.

The rub here is that HMRC have enough votes, 27.2 million, out of the total of 83,.4 million, to block any CVA.

If a CVA cannot be agreed then the only possible exit is by liquidation.

A further charge was registered by MSD at the end of November against the long lease training ground.  That effectively stops the property being realised to fund payments to unsecured creditors.

 

 

Well, according to Wayne Rooney there's no chance of liquidation !!

This club will exist. This club will grow," Derby boss Rooney said.

"I've seen the headlines in the papers the last couple of days and that's news to me. I don't think there's even an option of the club going into liquidation.

"I know some of the staff, when they read that, get worried, but from my point of view there's quite a few buyers who are very interested in the club.

"It's not through lack of people wanting to come in and take over the club, it's purely just getting it done, getting it over the line and there are details that need sorting out before that can happen."

Just a matter of details then,  nothing to see move on .

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40 minutes ago, cityexile said:

I don’t wish that upon their fans, really...but just as a throwaway comment both Barnsley and Peterborough beat Derby. In the event Derby disappeared mid season they would both lose three points.

And if it`s after Saturday we wouldn`t lose any................................................

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Well it is playing out to some extent as expected?

Certainly don't hope Derby go bust but at the same time, discounts from HMRC debt- especially post Covid and the massive tax bills, plus HMRC have had their status upgraded- they need all the tax they can get! Something is better than nothing but precedents could also be dangerous...

Payment over time- £3m x 10 years plus existing tax obligations or £6m in 5 years plus existing HMRC obligations seems a possible deal?

I touched upon the political side from time to time.

MPs

Margaret Beckett has reportedly called on HMRC to show leniency or similar. I assume Derby and Derbyshire MPs will have something to say?

https://theathletic.com/news/derby-mp-calls-for-hmrc-to-be-lenient-as-she-warns-of-disastrous-outcome/g3qNhnPf3yg6/

Now I don't know if this is one and the same Melvyn Morris- could be a different Melvyn Morris in Derbyshire, but...

I knew about it a while ago and tbh as far as donations go it doesn't appear to be particularly a) Large or b) Regular but unless it's a different Mel Morris in Derbyshire?

image.png.08fd81283299e1bddff93052d430af82.png

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/170707/170707.pdf

Whether a £10k donation as a one off would hold much sway is debatable but people don't donate to political parties for no real reason. Size of donation and non recurring...doesn't appear to have been regular put it that way.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Well it is playing out to some extent as expected?

Certainly don't hope Derby go bust but at the same time, discounts from HMRC debt- especially post Covid and the massive tax bills, plus HMRC have had their status upgraded- they need all the tax they can get! Something is better than nothing but precedents could also be dangerous...

Payment over time- £3m x 10 years plus existing tax obligations or £6m in 5 years plus existing HMRC obligations seems a possible deal?

I touched upon the political side from time to time.

MPs

Margaret Beckett has reportedly called on HMRC to show leniency or similar. I assume Derby and Derbyshire MPs will have something to say?

https://theathletic.com/news/derby-mp-calls-for-hmrc-to-be-lenient-as-she-warns-of-disastrous-outcome/g3qNhnPf3yg6/

Now I don't know if this is one and the same Melvyn Morris- could be a different Melvyn Morris in Derbyshire, but...

I knew about it a while ago and tbh as far as donations go it doesn't appear to be particularly a) Large or b) Regular but unless it's a different Mel Morris in Derbyshire?

image.png.08fd81283299e1bddff93052d430af82.png

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/170707/170707.pdf

Whether a £10k donation as a one off would hold much sway is debatable but people don't donate to political parties for no real reason. Size of donation and non recurring...doesn't appear to have been regular put it that way.

The local MPs will obviously call for leniency, easy win for them to do that.

I was on Derby's forum, looking at the match thread for tomorrow. You sir, you have quite the fan club on there. You're a very popular Popodopolous.

Edited by ExiledAjax
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