Derby County

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think they hope MPs will intervene, lobby HMRC and the EFL to cut Derby more slack, perhaps they claim that the EFL's current actions are ultra vires.

It is a bit yep.

Derby 3 Bournemouth 2. Derby? 3 shots on target, one of them a penalty.

Derby 1 West Brom 0. Derby? Were somewhat dominated but 1 shot on target and a win it is! Think there was a horrible goalkeeping error by WBA in there.

Derby 2 Sheffield United 0. Derby? 2 shots on target and great goals they were too.

They are consistently outperforming their xG by a decent margin. It'll regress to what's expected - and they'll stop scoring.

Don't worry Pop, they're going down unless they go bust first.

MPs have **** all jurisdiction over HMRC or the EFL, neither of whom are doing anything illegal or "ultra vires."

Now, if there were an independent regulator established by Parliament in place...but we can but dream eh?

Edited January 15, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Morris is described as being worth 500M. That maybe be debatable, and not include some Derby write offs. But that man is why HMRC is owed 23M and why in hell should he not be paying that debt. He will still have hundreds of millions even if the quoted wealth numbers are warped. It is disgusting . The Labour Mp should be talking to HMRC about chasing Morris down to pay his debts. That he can in fact afford to pay. 

That’s probably my biggest beef….threatened with points deductions for not paying the players, he takes the easy route - pays the players but not their tax and NI.  Imagine if HMRC came to Rooney or Lawrence for the missing tax and NI….sorry chaps, your employer hasn’t paid up, it’s yours to repay now.  Woukd feel a bit different wouldn’t it.  Now, I know that’s not the case, but it shows the contempt Morris has for doing things properly.

He’s allowed Derby to build these debts, he’s supposed to underwrite the losses…yet he doesn’t want to.  How does that work?  This is why there needs to be some “deposit” or “bond” before a club can rack up losses.

I think it’s disgusting.

[martnewts]

Surely the efl rules need to change to ensure that both the wages and associated PAYE, Employees NI and Employes Ni are paid each month to avoid sanctions. Currently late paid wages trigger sanctions but I don’t believe late payment of the amounts due to HMRC are included, at the level of championship wages this amount  would be roughly equal to the net wages payable to players each month 

[Hxj]

9 hours ago, martnewts said:

Surely the efl rules need to change

I think that Derby would have gone through some sort of sale, reorganisation or insolvency event before the end of the 2019/20 season due to the January 2020 insolvency action by HMRC if it had not been for the virus stopping all HMRC winding up procedures. It needs to be remembered that Derby went into Administration on 22 September 2021, HMRC were restarting insolvency actions on 1 October 2021, that is not a coincidence.

Oh and Regulation 17 is pretty thorough:

17           HMRC Reporting

17.1        Current HMRC Debt.  Any Club which has not within 28 (twenty-eight) days of the relevant Due Date paid to HMRC the amounts due to be paid to HMRC to discharge:

17.1.1    the Club’s full liability for PAYE & NIC due in respect of any and all employees or former employees of the Club for the immediately preceding payment period; and/or

17.1.2    the Club's full liability for PAYE & NIC which becomes due as a result of an assessment issued by HMRC, subject to clause 17.8 below,

(each a ‘Default Event’) shall report the Default Event to The League within 2 working days of the Default Event.

17.2        Reporting Default Events.  When a Club reports a Default Event to The League it shall at the same time provide to The League details of any and all amounts due to HMRC from the Club in respect of PAYE & NIC, together with the periods to which they relate.

17.3        Consequences of a Default Event.  Without prejudice to the general position (pursuant to Regulation 43.4) that all registrations must be approved by The League and subject to Regulation 17.3A, a Club which is subject to a Default Event shall be subject to a registration embargo such that it shall not be permitted to register any Player with that Club without the prior written consent of The League for the period that the Club is subject to a Default Event.

17.3A   Regulation 17.3 will not apply where a Club suffers a Default Event due to the failure to discharge a COVID PAYE Liability and has entered into a Time to Pay Agreement and is compliant with the terms of that Time To Pay Agreement. For the avoidance of doubt, where a Club defaults on the terms of a Time to Pay Agreement, and such default results in all outstanding amounts becoming due to HMRC immediately, the Club shall remain subject to a Default Event until such time as the outstanding amounts are paid or included within any other Time to Pay Agreement.

17.4        Failure to Notify a Default Event.  A Club which fails to report a Default Event shall be guilty of misconduct and shall be referred to a Disciplinary Commission in accordance with Section 7 of these Regulations.

17.5        Provision of Authority.  Each Club shall provide to The League, not later than 31 May prior to the commencement of a Season, (and in any event within seven days of any request for a further authority from The League), an original, irrevocable authority (which shall not be time constrained) in the form prescribed by The League and signed by a director and the company secretary of the Club, addressed to HMRC authorising HMRC to provide to The League information relating to amounts of PAYE & NIC payable, paid and overdue from the Club to HMRC from time to time including, by way of example and without limitation, the amount of Arrears (if any), the existence of and current position in respect of any Time to Pay Agreement and if a Club suffers a Default Event (‘Authority’).  The League shall be entitled to forward the Authority to HMRC without having to seek the consent of the Club. 

17.6        The Board shall have the power to suspend any Club which, not later than 31 May prior to the Commencement of the following Season (including, for the avoidance of doubt, those Clubs entering The League by way of promotion from the National League or relegation from the Premier League for the following Season) or within seven days of a request, fails to provide to The League the Authority in the required form.  A suspended Club shall not play in:

17.6.1    any League Match;

17.6.2    any Football Association Cup Match;

17.6.3    any EFL Cup Match;

17.6.4    any EFL Trophy Match; and/or

17.6.5    any other match conducted or controlled by The League and in which it would otherwise be eligible to compete.

17.7        For the purposes of the League Competition, the Board shall have the power to determine how the cancellation of a League Match caused by the suspension of one of the Clubs, which should have participated in it, shall be treated.

17.8        Disputed Amounts.  Any amounts which HMRC claims to be due to it, for example by way of an assessment, but which have been formally contested by the Club shall not be considered as due to HMRC for the purposes of this Regulation 17 until such time as a final determination is made on HMRC’s claim.

17.9        Information provided by a Club and/or HMRC in relation to any Arrears shall only be made available to senior members of The League’s staff and the independent Chairman (as described in Article 17.1.1) and shall not be disclosed to the Board generally, provided always that The League shall be entitled to report the happening of a Default Event to the Board for the purposes of enforcing Regulation 17.3 (Consequences of a Default Event).

[Davefevs]

So Derby are lucky they’ve not been thrown out already!

[Finley_Smith10]

Don’t know how reliable but Derby just accepted a 30k bid for Shinnie from Wigan. Surely we have to be looking at some of their players if they’re accepting stupid bids like that 

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

Don’t know how reliable but Derby just accepted a 30k bid for Shinnie from Wigan. Surely we have to be looking at some of their players if they’re accepting stupid bids like that 

OOC in the summer.  Wouldn’t surprise me if Derby are just happy to save his wages for the rest of the season.

[REDOXO]

Benitez Gone. WW may have his escape route!

[East Londoner]

13 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Benitez Gone. WW may have his escape route!

Compensation would be welcomed too 

[ExiledAjax]

4 hours ago, Hxj said:

Current HMRC Debt.  Any Club which has not within 28 (twenty-eight) days of the relevant Due Date paid to HMRC the amounts due to be paid to HMRC to discharge:

How is "Due Date" defined? Seems like any default turns on when that is.

[underover]

On 15/01/2022 at 14:46, Mr Popodopolous said:

I would like Derby to survive and I feel sympathy with a reasonable chunk of the fans but shit like this tempers it!

At a time where we are having to pay more in NI from April, HMRC will be looking for more tax from the rest of us- well!?

The optics are not good, not least as a Melvyn Morris appeared to have donated to the Tories in 2017- albeit seems to be a one off and could be a different Melvyn Morris from Derbyshire. Unsurprisingly though, the political lobbying or calls are a thing. Beckett is Labour however,

Also what have the internal EFL Regulations which Derby signed up to got to do with her and other MPs- I understand the desperation but the shift the blame culture from a significant minority of Derby fans, leaves a real bad taste.

I also believe that the £8m out of £28m figure floated was no coincidence- because EFL regs state 25% minimum for unsecured creditors- if it went to court, I assume Derby/Quantuma would be seeking a cross class cram down which can be imposed upon classes of creditors, just above that threshold but not prohibitively so- and a hefty write-down all the same. If HMRC had accepted that or do accept that then other Unsecured Creditors would have to accept the same- Football Creditors aside- just enough to avoid the 15 pts next season?

I can understand being desperate and going to anyone you can for help anywhere, but if a Labour MP were to actually advocate for companies/'the rich' (because whislt it may not technically be MM's liability its his mess and he could surely trump up the bill if he is indeed worth ~500m) not having to pay taxes then at that point whats the point in the party? I know Labour has changed/is changing a lot in recent(ish - ok 20 odd!) years but that still goes against everything the party stands for. Even at the hight of New Labour and convergence with Thatcherism/lite Mandelson still had his - we don't care if people get filthy stinking rich, just as long as they pay their taxes.  Theres little an MP/The Govt can really do anyway since yes its got nothing to do with either an individual opposition MP or the government. 

I agree on the blame shifting too, obviosuly there's the 'efl on strings' comments but I agree with some others they can ultimately be taken as banter and they don't make the potential sinking of Derby in any way palatable but I do think it's rich complaining about fair treatment when they in essence didn't treat much of the rest (or at least those who adhered to the rules) of the league with fairness. 

I also cannot comprehend the lack of blame aimed at Morris, I know when this was unravelling a few months ago they did start to place the blame at his door, slowly began to lift some of the wool from their eyes, but it seems now none of them really mention him? I don't go out of my way to interact with Derby fans or find what theyre thinking and I'm only friends with a few so perhaps I'm simply missing it but theres anger at the efl, and the admins (though even that seems to be dying down now?) but none/hardly any for Morris. I can't understand why they're not furious  with him. It's like the admins have managed to put up such a sustained propaganda campaign they believe it? Or simply want to believe it perhaps since I refuse to believe that many people are that easily distracted/swayed from something. Then again, 'accountability' wouldn't be a word I would associate with any of the last few years of this country so I shouldn't be surprised. 

[underover]

18 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Not sure why Derby fans are not petitioning Mel Morris. He can solve all of the crap he created and avoid liquidation and pay HMRC in the process. They will then just have Boro and WW to worry about. 

Well if he gave even half a c**p they wouldn't be in this position in the first place you'd imagine but yes he's the one they should be focusing on 

[ExiledAjax]

3 minutes ago, underover said:

I can't understand why they're not furious  with him.

If they blame Morris then they have to admit that he, and by extension Derby County, cheated.

Read the forum and you see that quite a few still don't even admit to that, or they blame the EFL for "changing the rules" to ensure they failed P&S in the first place.

Many just have a general view that the EFL have it in for them.

 

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

If they blame Morris then they have to admit that he, and by extension Derby County, cheated.

Read the forum and you see that quite a few still don't even admit to that, or they blame the EFL for "changing the rules" to ensure they failed P&S in the first place.

Many just have a general view that the EFL have it in for them.

 

If they blame Morris they will be blaming themselves. After all this is a fanbase that cheered him on because he was apparently too clever for the EFL.

They are not going to admit they were either conned, stupid or both so they will plough on with their victim mentality to avoid the truth.

Any sympathy I had has dissipated because of their arrogant attitude.

[Ska Junkie]

Excuse my stupidity but if Derby get some kind of dispensation / discount from the HMRC, wouldn't that set a precedent so that all clubs could do the same thing, saving £Ms?

[Hxj]

Looks like Jason Knight is out next - Derby County set to sell £8m captain Jason Knight | Irish Sport | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)

However selling him would mean that Derby would have enough cash to last the season.

[REDOXO]

9 minutes ago, chinapig said:

If they blame Morris they will be blaming themselves. After all this is a fanbase that cheered him on because he was apparently too clever for the EFL.

They are not going to admit they were either conned, stupid or both so they will plough on with their victim mentality to avoid the truth.

Any sympathy I had has dissipated because of their arrogant attitude.

This does sum it up perfectly. Their bloody victim mentality is so galling it makes me mad. 
 

These half wits cheered this horrible individual at every turn as he tried to weasel out of every rule and obligation to the league the supporters of his own club (and others) and the players. And now it’s all the EFL, Gibson and Wycombe Wanderers fault. 
 

One of these bloody lunatics even got invited onto one of the many City podcasts there are. 
 

I’ll have more sympathy with the plight of the supporters when they finally come to terms with who is responsible, who supported him, and that yes that some clubs (if not all) do have a legitimate gripe for the out and out cheating of the rules of the league and the Inland Revenue. (not to mention not paying their suppliers including St Johns Ambulance for the love of god!)

[REDOXO]

17 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Excuse my stupidity but if Derby get some kind of dispensation / discount from the HMRC, wouldn't that set a precedent so that all clubs could do the same thing, saving £Ms?

Yes. Highly unlikely!

The best they might get is a payment plan to pay what’s owed over an extended period!

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

This does sum it up perfectly. Their bloody victim mentality is so galling it makes me mad. 
 

These half wits cheered this horrible individual at every turn as he tried to weasel out of every rule and obligation to the league the supporters of his own club (and others) and the players. And now it’s all the EFL, Gibson and Wycombe Wanderers fault. 
 

One of these bloody lunatics even got invited onto one of the many City podcasts there are. 
 

I’ll have more sympathy with the plight of the supporters when they finally come to terms with who is responsible, who supported him, and that yes that some clubs (if not all) do have a legitimate gripe for the out and out cheating of the rules of the league and the Inland Revenue. (not to mention not paying their suppliers including St Johns Ambulance for the love of god!)

There are some who get it, let's not tar them all with the same brush. But there's a very vocal element who simply think the EFL and others have it in for them. It's tragic.

[REDOXO]

2 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

There are some who get it, let's not tar them all with the same brush. But there's a very vocal element who simply think the EFL and others have it in for them. It's tragic.

Yes I do understand that despite my diatribe. But the ‘vocal element’ seems to be far and away a majority, at least to me!

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

There are some who get it, let's not tar them all with the same brush. But there's a very vocal element who simply think the EFL and others have it in for them. It's tragic.

Fair enough but if their forum is anything to go by the ones who get it are in a very small minority and even they tend to say it's Mel's fault but.... EFL, Gibson,HMRC etc.

[Loosey Boy]

27 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Looks like Jason Knight is out next - Derby County set to sell £8m captain Jason Knight | Irish Sport | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)

However selling him would mean that Derby would have enough cash to last the season.

Would only have enough cash if all paid up front which in this day and age, is unlikely.

Rumours that they need to have £7m in the bank on 1st Feb to prove to EFL that they have enough money to see the season through - think there will be a couple more sold

Edited January 16, 2022 by Loosey Boy

[ExiledAjax]

13 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Yes I do understand that despite my diatribe. But the ‘vocal element’ seems to be far and away a majority, at least to me!

 

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Fair enough but if their forum is anything to go by the ones who get it are in a very small minority and even they tend to say it's Mel's fault but.... EFL, Gibson,HMRC etc.

If their forum is anything to go by then the real victim of this whole thing is the poor lady manning the EFL phone line yesterday.

Hopefully a damehood heading her way in the birthday honours list.

Edited January 16, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Mr X]

I wouldn't mind seeing Ebosele here from Derby if they're accepting cheap offers for players

[underover]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

If they blame Morris they will be blaming themselves. After all this is a fanbase that cheered him on because he was apparently too clever for the EFL.

They are not going to admit they were either conned, stupid or both so they will plough on with their victim mentality to avoid the truth.

Any sympathy I had has dissipated because of their arrogant attitude.

You’re both right of course I suppose I just thought that the mounting evidence would prove to much but I clearly not!

They seem to be a classic case of cognitive dissonance (which I had to google because I never quite trust my grasp on it as a concept): 

 To deal with the apparent dissonance (where a cult leaders claims had been disproven), cult members denied or rationalized away the evidence and then desperately sought new followers to support the face-saving reinterpretation of the situation

Obviously the research is on cults & quotes from an article on political dissonance but it seems very fitting! Especially if you see the way they’re now sharing their petition, trying to get MPs involved, etc it all seems to fit. 
 

My sympathy is definitely tempered that’s for sure, there’s definitely those out there who haven’t been like that but from what I’ve seen on social media (and again I don’t go out to find out what Derby fans think so I doubt I’m representative) it’s very few, I think I can only think of the one that I’ve interacted with who’s been introspective about the whole thing 

 

Edit: I don’t know why the text is so massive but I’m a technophobe and apparently can’t change it! 

Edited January 16, 2022 by underover

[REDOXO]

12 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

 

If their forum is anything to go by then the real victim of this whole thing is the poor lady manning the EFL phone line yesterday.

Hopefully a damehood heading her way in the birthday honours list.

God yes! 
 

Dame Mildred of Preston. 

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, underover said:

You’re both right of course I suppose I just thought that the mounting evidence would prove to much but I clearly not!

They seem to be a classic case of cognitive dissonance (which I had to google because I never quite trust my grasp on it as a concept): 

 To deal with the apparent dissonance (where a cult leaders claims had been disproven), cult members denied or rationalized away the evidence and then desperately sought new followers to support the face-saving reinterpretation of the situation

Obviously the research is on cults & quotes from an article on political dissonance but it seems very fitting! Especially if you see the way they’re now sharing their petition, trying to get MPs involved, etc it all seems to fit. 
 

My sympathy is definitely tempered that’s for sure, there’s definitely those out there who haven’t been like that but from what I’ve seen on social media (and again I don’t go out to find out what Derby fans think so I doubt I’m representative) it’s very few, I think I can only think of the one that I’ve interacted with who’s been introspective about the whole thing 

 

Edit: I don’t know why the text is so massive but I’m a technophobe and apparently can’t change it! 

Good point. Psychology Today covers it well.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance#understanding-cognitive-dissonance

One example from there:

If a woman reads that her favorite politician has done something immoral, she could conclude that the charges have been invented by his enemies

Though I can't think of a politician that might apply to off the top of my head.

[Denbury Red]

If they sell Tom Lawrence they will easily raise enough

[Hxj]

Two recent quotes from the Derby Forum, posted at the same time.  These highlight precisely the gap in the thought processes ... 

That’s fine, except they [the EFL] seem to be suggesting that their internal rules are more important than UK insolvency legislation. And they are preventing us from exiting admin and paying creditors, including HMRC. I think they’re asking for trouble and I hope they get it.

and then:

A preferred bidder l understand is prepared to pay c£50m to satisfy the club’s creditors, which include MSD in full, football creditors in full (not inc. Boro and Wycombe), an agreed % to HMRC and 25% to unsecured creditors. 

Presumably the bit in bold is the bit to satisfy the EFL internal rules and it is irrelevant that the payments would be in breach of UK insolvency legislation?

Edited January 16, 2022 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

Looks like Jason Knight is out next - Derby County set to sell £8m captain Jason Knight | Irish Sport | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)

However selling him would mean that Derby would have enough cash to last the season.

Not sure anyone would pay £8m when they are seeing Shinne transfer get accepted for £30k.

13 minutes ago, Denbury Red said:

If they sell Tom Lawrence they will easily raise enough

Is he the one rumoured to be going to Boro for £100k or is that another player?  Losing track during these fire sales!