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No chance of Ashley gazumping Kirchener. Ashley buys distressed / liquadated businesses for knock down prices. Like a vulture he will be quietly waiting for Kirchener to pull out then at the 11th hour he will step in with a lower take it or leave it offer. Whilst quietly telling Mel to stick his stadium and then taking Derby into a groundshare somewhere close by.

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10 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

No chance of Ashley gazumping Kirchener. Ashley buys distressed / liquadated businesses for knock down prices. Like a vulture he will be quietly waiting for Kirchener to pull out then at the 11th hour he will step in with a lower take it or leave it offer. Whilst quietly telling Mel to stick his stadium and then taking Derby into a groundshare somewhere close by.

Mel won’t worry.

He’ll be laughing all the way to the bank as he will still have an £80m asset - it was independently valued, don't you know! :whistle:

43 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Some Derby fans think Ashley is gonna come in with a bid and gazump Kirchner! ?

McColl’s is looking a better deal.

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40 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

No chance of Ashley gazumping Kirchener. Ashley buys distressed / liquadated businesses for knock down prices. Like a vulture he will be quietly waiting for Kirchener to pull out then at the 11th hour he will step in with a lower take it or leave it offer. Whilst quietly telling Mel to stick his stadium and then taking Derby into a groundshare somewhere close by.

Exactly.  Vulture is a perfect description.

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56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

19 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Which implies that Kirchner is not prepared to fund the club pending the still imminent sale.

Exactly, this kind of desperate acceptance of cash, whereby they're sacrificing a potentially much larger future return for a pretty small amount right now, tells us that Kirchner is not underwriting, or guaranteeing, any expenditure at this point. If he was lending the club his credit card then why would they need to do this kind of deal? It tells me that for all of his bombast on Twitter, Kirchner is yet to pay anyone anything (other than his lawyers' interim invoice). 

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Seen a suggestion by Nixon that the magic number to avoid EFL Points penalties is £45m.

Unsure if that's including the stadium/MSD security. He seems bullish about Derby not going bust.

On another note, total radio silence on the HMRC issues and has been for some time now. The last we know is that the debt is £36m.

EFL Insolvency rules state either 25% straight away or 35% in 3 years to unsecured creditors. That'd be £9m or £12.6m over 3 years. Although Preferential and Unsecured are surely a different category.

I also don't get why they are talking about Ashley investing big when there would surely be an EFL monitored business plan for 2-3 years to reflect the advantage gained via Insolvency.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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SSN reporting that Ashley has been in touch with Quantuma but had no reply. They have a history of not replying to emails from the EFL of course.

They do not seem to know about any extension for Kirchner though.

Also that they do have access to more loans if necessary, presumably from MSD. But that would just add to the debt of course.

Sh1t creek appears to be a paddle free zone.

Edited by chinapig
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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Nixon reporting that Kirchner's exclusivity period has been extended. It's behind his Patreon paywall so not sure for how long. I'd guess a month or until the end of May perhaps.

SSN saying the extension is to next weekend only.

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Anyone want a good laugh? Good grief!!

(Email addresses redacted for privacy purposes etc). Which is more than the poster did. No need to redact Couhig or Gibson as we all know who they are.

I had a look at some other Derby forums for a more balanced perspective- this was one of them though!! I will stress that this was NOT from DCFCFans and tbh nobody replied to the thread in any event but it's quite the take.

Quote

Here's an exchange of emails between a Rams fan, and the EFL and the Met. Make of it what you will. It's a long read.....

From: a Rams fan
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:18 AM
To: efl
Subject: EFL and Derby County FC Administration
Mr and Mr
It seems clear that the case of Derby County FC administration is now a far more complicated matter
than it ought to be, particularly for the business to exit administration and/or to avoid liquidation, and
the EFL are one of the key players in them being able to do so or not.
What concerns me is the EFL feeling a little rattled and obliged to deny in a public statement there is
a ‘vendetta’ against DCFC, something its prior owner had first accused it of. Either way I believe
some of the following (not a complete listing of potential issues) needs to be explained fully and
evidenced:
Why the EFL:
1. Didn’t accept its original Disciplinary Tribunal exoneration of DCFC?
2. Didn’t accept £100k fine & no sporting sanctions handed down by the separate Tribunal on
Appeal?
3. Introduced a new rule on squad size to include U23players with 1+ appearances applied to DCFC?
4. Act by insisting Quantuma (DCFC Administrators) accept the disputed FFP penalty against DCFC?
5. Admitted in meetings with MPs and in your interview (Mr Parry’s) with The Athletic podcast that
Middlesbrough legal claims were originally against the EFL but these were withdrawn following the
EFL actions outlined above against DCFC.
6. Haven’t intervened to overcome the legal claims by 2 of its members, Middlesbrough AFC (their
owner) and Wycombe Wanderers (their owner), that are the major obstacles to saving Derby County
FC from liquidation.
Therefore it seems there’s enough evidence to support an accusation that the EFL have acted many
times having been prompted by one of its member clubs, whether through collusion or coercion, to
the detriment of another. It’s also clear that the EFL being so prompted has been/is an agent of one
of its member clubs with a fiduciary interest, via pending civil legal claims against another member.
With reference to https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/inchoateoffences#:~:text=A%20conspiracy%20is%20an%20agreement,criminal%20act%20itself%3A%20Mul
cahy%20v.
Before I feel compelled to report my concerns to the Police for possible investigation by them I want
to allow you the opportunity to provide any reassurance you can on the queries I’ve raised?
Sincerely
Rams Fan

From: EFL
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 11:33 AM
To: Rams Fan
Subject: Read: EFL and Derby County FC Administration

Your message
To: EFL
Subject: EFL and Derby County FC Administration
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:18:48 AM (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London
was read on Thursday, January 20, 2022 11:33:17 AM (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London.
EFL

efl
Please note our staff are working flexibly from home and the office – please continue to contact us via
telephone and email.

From: EFL
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:20 AM
To:  Rams Fan
Subject: Read: EFL and Derby County FC Administration

Your message
To: EFL
Subject: EFL and Derby County FC Administration
Sent: 20 January 2022 10:18:48 (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London
was read on 20 January 2022 10:20:36 (UTC+00:00) Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London.
EFL


From: RamsFan
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 2:40 PM
To: The Police
Cc:  The Police
Subject: Fw: EFL and Derby County FC Administration

Dear Ms/Sirs

I, along with many thousands of others, have been keeping a watching brief on events concerning
Derby County FC that are now becoming ones of national attention and concern, including in
parliament.

Though it may well seem that the issues are of a civil and/or commercial nature there are aspects
that raise questions of possible criminality in the sphere of potential conspiracy and coercion, which
in itself may also fall into realms of being extortion, regarding the actions of the English Football
League (EFL) Middlesbrough AFC (their owner, known as Mr) and Wycombe Wanderers
FC (their owner, known as Mr).

I have communicated such a possibility to senior officers of the EFL and asked they provide
reassurance to the contrary. (see email below) That reassurance has not been forthcoming.

Therefore, because the EFL offices – 55 Blandford Street W1U 7HW - are in your jurisdiction I’m
asking you to undertake a preliminary review on the scope for a full investigation into potential
criminality outlined?

I raise this in relation to the following CPS on-line guidance:

1. Conspiracy – Statutory and Common law offences

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/inchoateoffences#:~:text=A%20conspiracy%20is%20an%20agreement,criminal%20act%20itself%3A%20Mulca
hy%20v

In relation to:

i. The nature and scope of communications and discussions between the EFL and Middlesbrough
leading to the apparent agreement for the club to cease any litigation against the EFL and for the EFL
to enact disciplinary proceedings against Derby County FC.

ii. Similarly any collusion between the EFL and Middlesbrough in regard to the EFL decision to seek to
overturn its own Disciplinary Tribunal decision to exonerate Derby County FC from all charges initially
brought against it.

iii. Again potential collusion/conspiracy with reference to the EFL actions regarding its dealings with
Quantuma, the Administrators appointed to oversee Derby County FC, to accept its proposed 9point
deduction Financial Fair Play sanction thus enabling both Middlesbrough AFC and Wycombe
Wanderers FC claims for compensation from DCFC.

iv. The continuing role of the EFL in the administration process of DCFC relating to the unwarranted
compensation claims from Middlesbrough and Wycombe Wanderers, specifically regarding the
classification of those claims as potential football creditor debts/or otherwise, effectively being a
block to the exit of Derby County FC from administration.

2. Extortion/Blackmail in regard to unwarranted demands:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/theft-act-offences#c62
Regarding:
i. Points 1.i-iv, above if not via collusion/conspiracy between the EFL and Middlesbrough AFC then by
possible coercion, by way of threats, upon the EFL by Middlesbrough AFC.
ii. The unwarranted nature of the speculative, spurious, opportunistic and inflated compensation
claims upon Derby County FC by Middlesbrough and Wycombe Wanderers seemingly being
facilitated by the EFL, effectively holding Quantuma, as Administrators appointed to DCFC, and any
potential purchasers of Derby County FC to ransom in trying to complete an effective takeover and
exit of DCFC from administration. This is reinforced by the recent announcements from
Middlesbrough and Wycombe Wanderers that they are prepared to reach a “compromise” upon
their initial claims for “more realistic” amounts.
Given it is widely reported and seemingly well understood that Derby County FC may go out of
business within a week, through enforced liquidation by its Administrators, I suggest an immediate
review of the potential scope for a fuller criminal investigation be completed and a decision taken
this week?
There’s plenty of evidence in the public domain already, but I’m content for you to contact me if you
consider I might be able to provide any assistance.
sincerely
Rams Fan


From:  The Police
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 3:04 PM
To: RamsFan
Subject: Your recent submission
Thank you for completing the form, your reference is: CDS-12425-22-0100-000.
Tell us what you think of our online service
Feedback on your experience of using our online services genuinely helps us to make sure
they work as well as possible.

From: EFL Enquiries
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 11:22 AM
To: Rams Fan
Subject: RE: EFL and Derby County FC Administration
Hello Andrew
Thank you for the email below, addressed to the CEO and Chairman of the EFL, we acknowledge your
comments and recognise that this is a concerning time for all connected to Derby County.
It is first worth clarifying that, due to a range of matters that remain ongoing, it is not possible for us to provide
detailed responses on a number of points you raise, however, as has been the case with numerous updates
and statements over the past ten days, where it is possible to provide information, we will do so.
In response to your point about a ‘vendetta’, as has been addressed by the EFL Chairman in recent media
interviews, why would we have one? The EFL is no more than the 72 Clubs it represents, the Clubs that own
the league, that set the rules. We’re trying to find the right solution for Derby County, while considering the
collective needs of the 72 in the context of our current regulations. Over recent weeks the League has been
contacted by a large number of supporters claiming there is a vendetta, and based on the intense local and
national media interest, and a range of erroneous reporting, social media comment and fan communication, the
EFL wished to clarify its position.
In respect of matters referred to regarding the original commission hearings, and sanctions on Derby County, all
of these have been reported and clarified in a number of previous statements. You can access and read the full
Independent Commission judgements from 2019-2021 via the EFL.com website here https://www.efl.com/-
more/governance/judgments-and-decisions/. It is again worth clarifying here that this is an independent
process, set out under our regulations. The EFL does not unilaterally decide the outcome of any charges
brought in respect of its rules. To this point it is again worth noting that, regarding the sporting sanctions which
were imposed this season, 12 points were deducted as consequence of the Club itself appointing
Administrators. A further 9 points were agreed with the Club, by way of an Agreed Decision which was ratified
by an Independent Disciplinary Commission Chair as per the requirements of the EFL Regulations after the
Club admitted to breaches of the EFL’s P&S rules.
Finally, your question relating to the EFL ‘intervening to overcome the legal claims by 2 of its members’, has
again been covered in a number of recent updates. While the regulations provide for arbitration between Clubs,
the EFL is not strictly party to any such proceedings. The current situation remains challenging as
Middlesbrough and Wycombe Wanderers consider their claims should be protected under the terms of the
Insolvency Policy. The Administrators disagree. Further, as those claims are not yet determined the
Administrators and bidders have no clarity on the size of any (if any) liability. As has been widely reported, that
has implications for exiting administration. The EFL has recently stated that it remains in dialogue with all
parties in an attempt to constructively move the matter forward.
Indeed, following ongoing discussion with Derby County’s Administrators, on Thursday 27 January, the EFL
released an updated statement (read here) in conjunction with Quantuma, to confirm that a month-long
extension to the deadline set for proof of funding to be provided has been agreed. This will provide the Club
with additional time to meet its ongoing obligations, continue discussions with interested bidders, alongside
providing additional time to seek clarity on the claims from Middlesbrough and Wycombe.
The latest statement follows two previous updates, including a Q&A released on Monday 17 January, and on
Thursday 20 January, which can be read here. In relation to your ongoing queries, while we are limited to what
additional detail we can provide given the ongoing discussion, both contain a range of information which, if you
have not yet read, provide some context to the current ongoing issues impacting the Club, and the EFL’s
position.
I hope that information has assisted, and please be assured that the EFL is aware of the ongoing challenges
faced and the concern from all those supporters and stakeholders impacted by ongoing matters. We remain
committed to addressing the many challenges at hand and we will look to provide updates as soon as we are
able to.
Thank you for contacting the EFL.
Kind Regards
Supporter Services Department
EFL

From: The Police
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 12:08 PM
To: RamsFan
Subject: Online form submission: X
Good afternoon,
With regards to your query, this would be an investigation for the FA/EFL, and not the Police at this
stage.
Kind Regards,
The Police


From: RamsFan
Sent: 29 January 2022 15:42
To: Police
Subject: Re: Online form submission: X
Thank you for the update to my email progress chasing enquiry earlier today.
Obviously I have a different opinion, based on the original submission I made to the Met in the
context of clear CPS guidance on incohate offences I referenced. I don’t see how the EFL can be
adjudged to be in charge of any investigation when it is about issues involving themselves and their
own potential wrongdoing?
I had attempted to send an email initially to the Met but this was rejected as undeliverable and I had
to resort to the on-line reporting and, because this is limited in number of characters, the ‘meat’ of
the issues I raised may have been lost in the formatting of the message?
Therefore I attach a copy of that email, along with supporting correspondence, for your records
because the proper formatting articulates more clearly the issues.
Given the Met says it has no interest or remit presently I will consider raising the issues of concern
elsewhere, probably to the group of MPs presently engaged in matters on behalf of Derby County FC.
Regards
RamsFan

From: The Police
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 4:48 PM
To: Rams Fan
Subject: Online form submission: X
Good Afternoon,
Please report this matter to the FA or the EFL and ask for it to be investigated.
Kind Regards,

 

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Anyone want a good laugh? Good grief!!

(Email addresses redacted for privacy purposes etc). Which is more than the poster did. No need to redact Couhig or Gibson as we all know who they are.

I had a look at some other Derby forums for a more balanced perspective- this was one of them though!!

 

Classic laughable barrack room lawyer gibberish.

I know all clubs have a moronic element but they do seem to have more than their fair share.

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44 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Anyone want a good laugh? Good grief!!

(Email addresses redacted for privacy purposes etc). Which is more than the poster did. No need to redact Couhig or Gibson as we all know who they are.

I had a look at some other Derby forums for a more balanced perspective- this was one of them though!! I will stress that this was NOT from DCFCFans and tbh nobody replied to the thread in any event but it's quite the take.

 

Forest need to add New Scotland Yard and The Met to that list of entities to blame?.

Also in what world do you send an email mid-morning on a Thursday and then take ‘next steps’ Monday afternoon as you deem enough time has elapsed for a response. A whole one and two half working days later!!!

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Quote

Evening. My ears were burning so I thought I'd swing buy and see what's going on.

And we're discussing that cretin, Mel Morris are we? Well, as I haven't been here for a while, I'll contribute a short essay!:

Many fans were unhappy with GSE, opinions were spilt on this forum I think. Bloomer was very anti the Americans, stating that he would no longer attend games while they were running the show. This was because of a widely held idiology with football fans of all clubs that there is some devine right that fans have to demand owners spend whatever it takes to achieve success, no matter how much it is and how much money they might lose. he history of this goes back to the early days of the Premier League, with clubs like Blackburn starting the trend. Spend money and you too can win the league. Only a few years before Blackburns success they'd been an average team hovering between the second and third tiers, then came Jack Walker and... BOOM! It was Abramovich who really started the spending boom though and everyone else piled in from there. Pundits and journo's were partly to blame too, often commenting on and clubs owners not showing enough 'ambition' (not spending enough) and fans lapped it up. I heard many people complaining about GSE not showing that amnition, not 'investing' was also a popular term, as was an accusation that they were 'creaming off the profits'. Yet the club was still clearly losing money, it was right there to see but people only see what they want to see and what they wanted to see was that the Americans were bad and a new local millionaire owner was good. Mob mentality completely forgot that the GSE era brought us the best team (arguably) since our Jim Smith promotion year, and nearly managed to go up itself.

Then step forward Mel Morris. An ego 100 times the size of Afgoons stationary budget, with claims of guaranteed promotion (everyone remebers that, right?), constant manager changes, overspending on players that simply weren't worth it, the stupid 'The Derby Way' nonsense, and talks of legacy. Hindsight may be easy but there were warning signs that had me very worried: First was the spending and the kind of player that was coming in for these daft amounts. Second was some of the managerial tinkering and appointments - the majority of the fans were frothing at the mouth at the news Frank Lampard had been signed as manager but it seems I was one of a tiny minority that was not only worried but realised Morris had finally lost the plot. My reasons were that there was already talk of having to trim costs and after constant changes it was important to find an experienced manager and start to rebuild again but for the LONG TERM, not just one or two seasons of high impact. Lampard was a big name, a very high profile but he had zero managerial experience and had spent the previous year out of football playing TV personality on shows with James Corden and Holly Willoughby. Only one of two things was likely to happen with his appointment - 1. He does well and gets lured to London, probably West Ham or Chelsea (this was before Moyes had properly established himself), or 2. he does badly and we sack him. Neither was likely to last more than a year or two tops, and then we'd be back to yet another manager and another rebuild... again. And so the cycle continues. But no, he went for the big name and it just made no sense once you looked passed the hype. And guess what happened, he did well and went to Chelsea. When I say he 'did well', we kind of fluked it to get into the top 6, we rarely looked good enough and if Boro hadn't lost something like 7 games in a row then we'd never have made it. We beat Leeds on that wonderful, amazing night that I will never forget (actually, I can't remember the end of it because I'd been drinking in the Sports Bar all night and I'm not sure how I got home, but I remember the match, which is the important bit) and I do remember that we were dead and buried and Leeds were coasting before they got cocky, took their eye off the ball (literally) and gifted us the first goal. After that we were amazing but the better team certainly didn't win. he did k, basically his main contribution was to sign Mason Mount for the season. Take that away and we'd have finished mid table.

But the biggest red flag was the stadium sale. Firstly I don't agree with clubs doing it, regardless of whether it's a rule or not. But my biggest issue wasn't whether it broke a rule or didn't break a rule, it was how did we get into such a state where it was necessary in the first place. That was a sign that we were in real trouble - but did it bother most fans? Some yes, but many just accepted it because, to them, football is about the 'now'. There is a culture of impatience amongst football fans, as well as hypocricy - for example: fans of other clubs criticise Derby fans for supporting Morris and yet they would have done exactly the same thing if the situation at their club was the same - because football fans are not genetically different to each other. There is no such thing as 'this club has better fans that that club', it's a myh, a sort of fallacy fuelled by tribalsm that is both good and bad for the game. Take Chelsea as another example - some fans are saying that the Chelsea fans deserve their club to be in trouble because they have been funded by a Billionaire mate of Putin, and yet there is no club in the land that would have turned him away if he'd arrived knocking on their doors at any point priorto Russias invasion of Ukraine. Newcastle fans don't care where their owners money comes from, or what their record of human rights are, or their involvement in the humanitarian catastrophy in Yemen that they have been a part of. And Bournemouth have a Russian owner (although i think he's now a British citizen, so no sanctions likely). Did anyone at Everton care that they had a Russian owner? The point being, as long as they're spending money, fans don't care. GSE weren't spending - demonstrations outside the ground. Morris spends stupid money on players that aren't worth it and then sells the stadium - fans call him a business genius and say he's playing the EFL like a puppet.

Morris is 100% responsible for our situation. To some degree he's probably unlucky that Covid came along and wrecked any chance he had of selling or getting additional investment, which then led to administration. But when you gamble like that then you have to accept the risk and he clearly did. What is more annoying, is he still seems to seek to blame everyone else. BUT.. to some extent, fans are also to blame. Not specifially just Derby fans, all fans. Fans have to level their expectations. It's all very well and good saying that we're happy to be frugal as long as we stay in business, but how long will that last? Fans have short memories. There has to be a shift in the game, a change of thinking.

I don't know if the rumours are true about his involvement in a new bid for ownership. It seems far fetched, although with his ego?? But if it did happen, I would be done. I will not associate myself with a club with that man involved, not after what he's done, and the way he's behaved. Loyalty is one thing but I'd be embarrassed to call myself a Derby fan with him at the club. So I hope it isn't true.

From the same forum I was browsing earlier, still had a thread open.

it's a bit of an essay but thought I must post it in the interest of balance.  Not really read it properly myself but who knows maybe it represents the silent majority of Derby fans?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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On 09/05/2022 at 08:04, ExiledAjax said:

 

Exactly, this kind of desperate acceptance of cash, whereby they're sacrificing a potentially much larger future return for a pretty small amount right now, tells us that Kirchner is not underwriting, or guaranteeing, any expenditure at this point. If he was lending the club his credit card then why would they need to do this kind of deal? It tells me that for all of his bombast on Twitter, Kirchner is yet to pay anyone anything (other than his lawyers' interim invoice). 

I agree, however the whole thing is a massive game of brinkmanship. There would be no point in kirschner lending the club money if the ground, EFL or HMRC hadn’t been sorted. This doesn’t even include the money owed to Poznan/Arsenal and any amount of other creditors. 
 

I can see Kirschner walking. 
 

 

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31 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Being reported that Kirchner has had his exclusivity period extended to Monday, so it is all still imminent.

Bigger problem is the PAYE payment due a week today of around £500k.

Yep. The imminence is so imminent I’ll be able to taste it soon!

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54 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Being reported that Kirchner has had his exclusivity period extended to Monday, so it is all still imminent.

Bigger problem is the PAYE payment due a week today of around £500k.

Thanks to Liverpool they might be ok.

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19 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It's Derby County, paying taxes is for little clubs not the likes of them.

More seriously, unless a deal is finalised by Monday is Kirchner going to cough up to meet the wage bill and other running costs? Or will they use the Liverpool money for that rather than pay the tax due?

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks to Liverpool they might be ok.

They might squeak through on Friday, but will have nothing left on Saturday for other bills.  Cashflow is now a major issue as nothing is coming in.  Plus Administrators are not in a position to 'wing' it and hope a cheque arrives.

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