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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


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Already covered in a bit of depth on the FFP thread.

That last line is misleading anyway, it wasn't that the EFL chose not to dock Derby points for the prior season, it's that the Independent Panel didn't think it appropriate in this case.

The EFL chose not to appeal as their lawyers apparently told them they had little chance of success with that bit of the charge.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Well, Parry is turning out to be an unmitigated disaster. I estimate there will be plenty more teams breaking similar rules this season knowing full well the little slap on the wrist will be so slight they will barely feel it.

There needs to be a revolution.

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4 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Well, Parry is turning out to be an unmitigated disaster.

I think that he has been incredibly successful at tightening up the rules, increasing transparency and keeping the majority of clubs onside.  

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3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I think that he has been incredibly successful at tightening up the rules, increasing transparency and keeping the majority of clubs onside.  

I agree to his smoochie talents on the last bit alright. In time they'll see through his salesmanship if not already just biding their time.

As for the first bit... Tightening rules? What rules? And if we assume there are some, actually fit for purpose, using them would be a good start. 

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On 10/07/2021 at 01:53, Mr Popodopolous said:

PPS, a few might be interested in this post.

I am sure it won't happen but Derby you might recall fielded a Youth Team or not far off at Chorley in the FA Cup in January due to Covid...

...Technically, one game could mean Professional Standing- a lot of those in that game have not played for Derby before or after! Wonder if the EFL could impose this restriction while the issues remain live.

Technically 27 but the rest still stands.

Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Ebosele, McDonald, Buchanan, Forsyth, JBrown, Bielik, Shinnie, Bird, Knight, Sibley, Watson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim, Stretton and Hutchinson have all played first team games (Hutchinson only in L1 and L2)

Bardell, Williams, Solomon, LThompson, Aghatise, Ibrahim, Duncan and Cybulski played in the Chorley game.

 

The confusing but is further down on the EFL's embargo page.

SmartSelect_20210711-093841_Chrome.thumb.jpg.8b5f4d9f554f1f05efea21f3eb1d72dc.jpg

 

Given we've been told we can't sign anyone yet, the 'professional standing' rule applies as the 'established player' rule would only include 10 current players (Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Forsyth, Bielik, Shinnie, Hutchinson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim)

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1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Technically 27 but the rest still stands.

Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Ebosele, McDonald, Buchanan, Forsyth, JBrown, Bielik, Shinnie, Bird, Knight, Sibley, Watson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim, Stretton and Hutchinson have all played first team games (Hutchinson only in L1 and L2)

Bardell, Williams, Solomon, LThompson, Aghatise, Ibrahim, Duncan and Cybulski played in the Chorley game.

 

The confusing but is further down on the EFL's embargo page.

SmartSelect_20210711-093841_Chrome.thumb.jpg.8b5f4d9f554f1f05efea21f3eb1d72dc.jpg

 

Given we've been told we can't sign anyone yet, the 'professional standing' rule applies as the 'established player' rule would only include 10 current players (Marshall, Roos, Byrne, Forsyth, Bielik, Shinnie, Hutchinson, Lawrence, Jozwiak, Kazim)

I can only guess that the distinction in rules for “Professional Standing” and “established player” is down to the embargo reason.  Looks like you can be under Registration Embargo for reasons other than P&S.  Derby themselves have 5 counts against them, one of which is P&S.  Perhaps if Derby’s only issue was P&S, the established player rule might be applicable….but as we see, Derby have 4 other issues.  That’s the only thing I can come up with.

Derby County

Regulation 16.2 - Failure to provide audited annual accounts

Regulation 16.3 - Annual Accounts not filed with Companies House

Regulation 17 - Default in payments to HMRC

Regulation 51.2.3 - Default in paying transfer fee instalments

Profit and Sustainability Rules - non-submission of audited accounts

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23 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I can only guess that the distinction in rules for “Professional Standing” and “established player” is down to the embargo reason.  Looks like you can be under Registration Embargo for reasons other than P&S.  Derby themselves have 5 counts against them, one of which is P&S.  Perhaps if Derby’s only issue was P&S, the established player rule might be applicable….but as we see, Derby have 4 other issues.  That’s the only thing I can come up with.

Derby County

Regulation 16.2 - Failure to provide audited annual accounts

Regulation 16.3 - Annual Accounts not filed with Companies House

Regulation 17 - Default in payments to HMRC

Regulation 51.2.3 - Default in paying transfer fee instalments

Profit and Sustainability Rules - non-submission of audited accounts

22 hours ago, Hxj said:

It's where I got too as well - so it must be right!

That was the conclusion I came to shortly after posting too 😅

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37 minutes ago, Pugofwar said:

More odd behaviour from Derby, shutting off a guaranteed steam of income. Administration looming perhaps?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/derby-county-tickets-lockdown-covid-24547868.amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

That is very, very strange. What business delays opening up revenue streams. 

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15 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Derby County face starting season without a centre-back, says Wayne Rooney - BBC Sport

Is that the sound of the world`s smallest violin I hear?

Come now, apparently poor little innocent Derby are being victimised by the evil EFL. Have a heart. Or not as the case may be.

Of course if it wasn't for the grossly unfair transfer embargo they could have signed Richard Keogh to solve their centre back problem.

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1 hour ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Derby County face starting season without a centre-back, says Wayne Rooney - BBC Sport

Is that the sound of the world`s smallest violin I hear?

The world’s smallest violin without any strings.

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Rules is Rules! Could they even grant it if the rules in play as they appear to be, they would be breaching their own Regulations and quite rightly I am sure the rest of the League would have something to say about that!

Today they started with the following- the players are and will be in bold for a reason...

The EFL have them where they want them to a decent extent, no grounds for clemency and no quarter should be given- oh they could drag the Accounts out to mid August, or thereabouts ie the submission to the EFL but that'll merely restrict them in the market...yet why drag out if all compliant and compliant using the EFL's accepted methodology?

Anyway yes, the Starting XI.

                     Roos

Byrne Jagielka Davies? Buchanan

                 Bird Shinnie

   Aluko Morrison Lawrence

                   Baldock

Subs also included Stearman.

That's 4 trialists starting and one on the bench- not contracted due to the current situation, potentially trialists? As for Davies, who knows- he was at the Club but contract up in Summer and no news yet publicly as to renewal- no sign of Wisdom either on bench or in team, he like Davies saw his contract expire in the Summer, status unknown? Seen Ryan Allsop also mentioned elsewhere but he wasn't either in the team or on the bench.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Don't know what they’ve got to moan about - we had to play the last 6 months with no midfield and no striker!

Edited by downendcity
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14 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Well, there`s a turn up - who could have predicted that!

Though I suspect we can predict the outcome. The phrase "there is some sympathy .." points in a certain direction.

If the EFL say, "Tough, you knowingly broke the rules and you knew what the sanctions were" I might even start to believe they take the issue seriously though.

 

Edited by chinapig
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The embargo does allow them to make signings but limits apply to contract lengths and fees that can be paid. They can put a team together but it will be weaker under the embargo. Sounds fair to me given their past behaviour that caused the embargo to be imposed.

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Like I said Sunday, no quarter should be given by the EFL here. Derby have made their bed with their actions in the past and indeed present- Pearce wanted to build bridges and that can come in time but is- or should be- irrelevant to the matter in hand.

There are different types of Embargo and for different reasons @WarksRobin

For FFP/ P&S ie the Reading one- that's gone somewhat quiet apart from having signed nobody yet, the situation for them IIRC was something like:

  1. Wages not exceeding £600k per year.
  2. No Transfer fees payable.
  3. No loan fees payable.
  4. Contract length not exceeding 1 year for permanent signings and 6 months for loan signings.

For Derby, as their issue is HMRC- yes lots of Clubs will be deferring with Agreement but I can only assume that if the EFL are involved, then there must be some falling behind on that, as well no Accounts at all for 2 years, Restatement etc- well to allow them to make signings no matter how limited in scope would risk giving them an unfair advantage between restrictions and Accounts submitted to the EFL's satisfaction.

As such, it's quite possible that they are not allowed to sign anyone at all right now- Jagielka, Aluko, Morrison, Baldock- all starters- were trialists. Davies I have no idea, he was there last season, Stearman as sub also possibly a trialist or non contracted- Wisdom though he didn't make the team or bench, see also Davies and Allsop see the first 4 though no sign in the squad.

@chinapig Think that just means that some Championship clubs have sympathy- ie among some other Clubs, whether it sways the EFL who knows.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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What about this, though it won't happen in a million years.

EFL approach Derby and offer a significant easement- in exchange for an agreed say 15 point deduction effective 2021/22 OR for the Interchangeable fixture list to finally have a use and accept swapping divisions with Wycombe effective immediately.

Or maybe Derby approach and offer a significant price (ie a huge deduction in 2021/22 or swap divisions with Wycombe now) in exchange for a significant improvement of their situation- otherwise IMO no deal, the Restrictions stay!

Two theoretical ideas- but the point remains that I'd be looking to extract a significant concession or set of concessions/price if I was the EFL here

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Though I suspect we can predict the outcome. The phrase "there is some sympathy .." points in a certain direction.

If the EFL say, "Tough, you knowingly broke the rules and you knew what the sanctions were" I might even start to believe they take the issue seriously though.

 

Maybe the likes of Reading, the ones spending too much with little regard for the rules.

The best thing Derby can do is get their accounts sorted, show some willing.  Leaving it to 18th August is just giving the EFL opportunity to (rightly) play hardball.

I sense administration and a points deduction….plus a tightrope on further points deducted if the accounts are not in order.

Rooney can bleat all he likes.

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38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe the likes of Reading, the ones spending too much with little regard for the rules.

The best thing Derby can do is get their accounts sorted, show some willing.  Leaving it to 18th August is just giving the EFL opportunity to (rightly) play hardball.

I sense administration and a points deduction….plus a tightrope on further points deducted if the accounts are not in order.

Rooney can bleat all he likes.

Yes, it's hard to see why clubs would be sympathetic unless they are in a similar position. Or in other cases would like the regime weakened in case they find themselves facing sanctions in future.

I fear that the fact that it's Rooney doing the bleating as opposed to a manager who is not a celebrity may carry more weight than it should.

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I hope clubs that have had to make some tough decisions over the last year to keep their books in order (to keep within the rules) lose their shit if the EFL back down on this. 

Rooney needs to wind his neck in, accept it and plan ahead accordingly.

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7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Maybe the likes of Reading, the ones spending too much with little regard for the rules.

The best thing Derby can do is get their accounts sorted, show some willing.  Leaving it to 18th August is just giving the EFL opportunity to (rightly) play hardball.

I sense administration and a points deduction….plus a tightrope on further points deducted if the accounts are not in order.

Rooney can bleat all he likes.

Agree with much of this, though my gut feeling is that they won't go into admin for a while longer and perhaps may avoid it entirely.

4 hours ago, Loco Rojo said:

I hope clubs that have had to make some tough decisions over the last year to keep their books in order (to keep within the rules) lose their shit if the EFL back down on this. 

Rooney needs to wind his neck in, accept it and plan ahead accordingly.

I wonder if they're entitled or just shall we say not terribly acquainted with the facts up there- look at the below the line comments on an article...Beaufort1 a notable exception!

Agree with your post btw.

image.thumb.png.a124cdf4143d253d092e4069a4f3a88a.png

"Even neutrals will now recognise that the EFL really does have a vendetta against the club and Mel Morris"!?

🤣🤣

image.thumb.png.c52f3533b1904e1f7090bdfd999a1953.png

Well, pretty sure most clubs will support the EFL in terms of the toughest of measures with respect to Derby County.

image.png.9169f6ae93a27f4ca7fd7a0ba093b3b9.png

Not as petty as Mel in 2020 Hearing when he suggested the EFL, especially Shaun Harvey, had an axe to grind or the blah blah woe is me enemy of the EFL State etc blah.

An even more empowered Regulator would probably step in quicker with regards to questionable Accounting and might have taken stronger steps more quickly against Clubs- not just but certainly including this one- with less recourse for Appeal- suggest they go back to the drawing board.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Saw this a few mins ago, made I laugh.

E6qsuzzWQAET1fE?format=jpg&name=medium

As for one particular fool on DCFCFans who shall remain nameless.

Quote

Prize of a night out with Bristol's saddest banker if you guess who came up with this solution to embargo.  The only clue I'm giving is that it's the same person your going on the night out with.   

What about this, though it won't happen in a million years.

EFL approach Derby and offer a significant easement- in exchange for an agreed say 15 point deduction effective 2021/22 OR for the Interchangeable fixture list to finally have a use and accept swapping divisions with Wycombe effective immediately.

Or maybe Derby approach and offer a significant price (ie a huge deduction in 2021/22 or swap divisions with Wycombe now) in exchange for a significant improvement of their situation- otherwise IMO no deal, the Restrictions stay!

Two theoretical ideas- but the point remains that I'd be looking to extract a significant concession or set of concessions/price if I was the EFL here

Happy to see the fool took a bit of bait- I was fishing a little though the EFL certainly need to play hardball- the 2nd Prize is two nights out with them, or better yet the booby prize! No prizes for guessing this one took a bite though.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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