Derby County

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

what voting rights does Mel have in who buys the club, etc?

None.

There is no debt owed to Morris directly by the football club.  Where the debt is owed to a connected company, that company is also in Administration.  Where a company is in Administration it is the Administrators that act in place of the directors, therefore they decide how that debt is voted.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could this not constitute borrowing public money with commercial property in mind.

Yes.  This and the 'State Aid' position is a problem.  Either makes life incredibly difficult for the council going forwards.

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, Hxj said:

None.

There is no debt owed to Morris directly by the football club.  Where the debt is owed to a connected company, that company is also in Administration.  Where a company is in Administration it is the Administrators that act in place of the directors, therefore they decide how that debt is voted.

Thanks, so this bloke on twitter is wrong…and it’s not the first time he’s stated it is fact.

[Hxj]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

so this bloke on twitter is wrong

Yep.

Plus there is another problem.  As at 21 March 2022 Morris hadn't put a claim in, so he unless he does he couldn't vote anyway!

Edited May 7, 2022 by Hxj

[Mr Popodopolous]

Dunno about the veracity but seen it suggested that Derby's player wage cap ie for a player post administration could be capped at £6,000 per week.

I would support that! In conjunction with suitable limitations on transfer fees, loan fees, signing on fees an agents fees.

2 years, perhaps 3 I would hope. 2 is the usual but if you want 3 years to pay 35% then a 3 year monitored business plan seems like the right way to proceed.

[Derby_Ram]

13 hours ago, Monkeh said:

How is selling players to keep your club running diggingnthe efl out of a hole?

Stop blaming others for your clubs mistakes you *******

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming the ******* was as a bad reaction to Rovers magnificent seven until I realised you posted this beforehand . Hope the blood pressure is ok this. Thoughts and prayers and all that.

 The only person responsible for where we are is MM.

As for digging the EFL out of a hole - had we gone pop halfway through the season it would have caused potential issues with the league table given we'd taken a variety of points of teams in the promotion and play off mix. Nothing more. Nothing less.

12 hours ago, chinapig said:

You may be shooting at the wrong target. @Derby_Ramis rather more sensible and informed than the kind of people who tend to post on the Derby forum.

Whether that is @Derby_Ram's reasoning I don't know and I often disagree with them but you can at least have a debate with them.

But maybe they actually mean it's all the EFL's fault, in which case your post stands and I withdraw all my comments above.

Thank you, firstly. It's not what I meant, as above, its only MMs fault but no doubt the EFL would have been bricking it if we'd had our record expunged and could have affected the play-off places. Especially if it kept Boro out. Maybe Gibson can sue the pitch invader kids' dad or the Reading keeper instead this year.

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno about the veracity but seen it suggested that Derby's player wage cap ie for a player post administration could be capped at £6,000 per week.

This would be a fantastic result and above my wildest expectations! Our allowed spend on contracts in the summer was £4,500 per week max and Davies, Jagielka, Morrison, Baldock and Allsop all signed for that or less. 

[Derby_Ram]

10 hours ago, Hxj said:

None.

There is no debt owed to Morris directly by the football club.  Where the debt is owed to a connected company, that company is also in Administration.  Where a company is in Administration it is the Administrators that act in place of the directors, therefore they decide how that debt is voted.

Potential virtue signalling by Kirchner but he did like the tweet in question about MM being able to vote down any deal. 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

As for digging the EFL out of a hole - had we gone pop halfway through the season it would have caused potential issues with the league table given we'd taken a variety of points of teams in the promotion and play off mix. Nothing more. Nothing less.

They’d have expunged the records, as is the rules…and teams would just get on with it as they have when other teams have suffered that fate.  There was enough of the season remaining, more than Lg1 covid ended season.

[Merrick's Marvels]

42 minutes ago, Derby_Ram said:

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming the ******* was as a bad reaction to Rovers magnificent seven until I realised you posted this beforehand . Hope the blood pressure is ok this. Thoughts and prayers and all that.

We're all fine here but thanks for the concern. Touching. 

A tinpot club managed by a scumbag, over reliant on Premier league loanees to clamber out of Division 4 on the last day of the season, on goal difference, are of no concern to us. In fact, I actually hope they thrash you home and away next season.

And last but not least  you're not as clever as you think - try looking at the team Scunthorpe put out today. OK, I'll make it easier for you - if Forest are 1 game away from promotion and the opposition put out their U12s, what would your reaction be?

That's a rhetorical question, btw cos I don't give a shite for your answer. Be sure to enjoy life in Division 3. Just don't rush back. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[Mr Popodopolous]

Putting aside the whole financial bit to an extent, this thread is an interesting read.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/39652-rewind-8-years/

Their mismanagement and decline is really hard to fathom. They lived reasonably within their means, had a talented young and mid range age side- spearheaded by a certain Chris Martin.

Mel Morris took a side and club in a good place and somehow completely fecked it up- gambled and on the pitch didn't get over the line and completely wrecked it off the pitch which kinda followed.

See also Chansiri at Sheffield Wednesday although they fell not quite as far and he didn't put them into administration. Inherited a solid if unspectacular Championship midtable club, spent- 2 playoffs and then yet by summer 2018 were in FFP trouble and by 2021 were in the 3rd tier having taken over in summer 2015.

Derby's plummet under Mel Morris took a bit longer, 2015 to 2022 but was starker.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

Potential virtue signalling by Kirchner

Do you think that he might be looking for someone else to blame when he pulls out?  After all you do have a bit of a reputation with Morris, and the fake Sheikh and the tax fraudster!

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Derby_Ram said:

This would be a fantastic result and above my wildest expectations! Our allowed spend on contracts in the summer was £4,500 per week max and Davies, Jagielka, Morrison, Baldock and Allsop all signed for that or less. 

I think it might be in that ballpark although all told, I read it on DCFCFans, nobody really knows apart from Kirchner and the EFL I guess. Poster may have heard something, or maybe something on the radio- who knows?

There is that although retention of varied players signed on Championship wages in Championship times who are now out of contract would certainly prove to be challenging.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Derby_Ram]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

They’d have expunged the records, as is the rules…and teams would just get on with it as they have when other teams have suffered that fate.  There was enough of the season remaining, more than Lg1 covid ended season.

Agreed, that's what would happen. You'd still get the questions over the integrity of the final table. With League One & covid - different circumstances - but plenty of rumblings mainly from Peterborough.

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Their mismanagement and decline is really hard to fathom. They lived reasonably within their means, had a talented young and mid range age side- spearheaded by a certain Chris Martin.

Mel Morris took a side and club in a good place and somehow completely fecked it up- gambled and on the pitch didn't get over the line and completely wrecked it off the pitch which kinda followed.

Simple really. Next season after QPR play off final flying along until Feb. Rumours of McClaren to Newcastle, he didn't quash them and the wheel spectacularly fell off. He got sacked at the end of the season - first indication of Mad Mel. First game of the following season Will Hughes + Craig Bryson got long term injuries on first day of season, we panicked into paying over £10m combined for Bradley Johnson + Jacob Butterfield and since then gamble after gamble.

8 hours ago, Hxj said:

Do you think that he might be looking for someone else to blame when he pulls out?  After all you do have a bit of a reputation with Morris, and the fake Sheikh and the tax fraudster!

Touché!

From well placed sources the two are meeting this morning. Oh to be a fly-on-the-wall....

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There is that although retention of varied players signed on Championship wages in Championship times who are now out of contract would certainly prove to be challenging.

Not too concerned in Y1 as based on whats happened we have very few players OOC earning more than that.

Lawrence - not going to be able to keep him in L1 so kind of a moot point. 

Byrne - very disappointed if he goes but wouldn't begrudge him staying in the Championship

Roos - backup keeper who we'd probably choose to release

Forsyth - age/ability would warrant a wage reduction to required levels if there was interest from our side. Not a guarantee there would be.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Derby_Ram

[Davefevs]

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Interesting post on the Derby forum. No idea of the veracity but there is a snippet in there that I only half considered.

Mentions FFP in relation to the stadium- one thing is for sure, the EFL need to give no favours or rule bending.

The integrity of the League, is more important than offering unfair help to the 1.

Technically there is a work around, Derby can pay their 5% in rent to the council and the EFL can use as the basis back in 2018 and what we saw in the 2020 Hearing for FFP purposes, even if the actual cash figure is different. ie the club, the Club DCFC and Stadia DCFC figure aggregated- days usage would be interesting. £1.1m for 100 days usage IIRC.

Alternatively, deduct the balance of rent as set by Derby's Independent valuer set against the council lease for a deduction as to what they can spend for the next 2-3 years then review it after the Business Plan and monitoring has expired.

Other than that the EFL should take a hard line if Kirchner wants something different.

On a different note, Mike Ashley might still be in for Derby or coming back in.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/08/mike-ashley-make-fresh-derby-county-offer-takeover-talks-hit/

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

On a different note, Mike Ashley might still be in for Derby or coming back in.

There was always a school of though that Kirchner might end up being a “patsy” for Ashley and really screw Morris.

[Sir Geoff]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Still imminent then ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

This Nottingham Forest fan makes a powerful point/argument.

It's a bit scathing but I do see the point he is making- a certain chunk of Derby fans, perhaps not exactly a small minority, would appear to like to have their cake and eat it. This is but one way.

I also wonder about this bit below.

If Derby liquidate, the loan gets written off does it? It seems an early thought of some is "how can we wriggle out of this obligation".

The insouciance of a good slug of them makes me more ambivalent to their plight than a range of clubs.

Here's another good one.

I suppose this one  thinks the EFL Insolvency Policy and justified restrictions to offset debt relief shouldn't or don't apply.

They should be waiting some time to spend any serious cash if the EFL Business Plan is up to scratch.

Okay I don't wish liquidation on them but their approach and mindset is hard to fathom! It irks.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This Nottingham Forest fan makes a powerful point/argument.

It's a bit scathing but I do see the point he is making- a certain chunk of Derby fans, perhaps not exactly a small minority, would appear to like to have their cake and eat it. This is but one way.

I also wonder about this bit below.

If Derby liquidate, the loan gets written off does it? It seems an early thought of some is "how can we wriggle out of this obligation".

Morris owns the company that owns the stadium, which owes £20m+ to MSD. That company is not in administration so liquidating DCFC won't help Morris in that respect surely?

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Morris owns the company that owns the stadium, which owes £20m+ to MSD. That company is not in administration so liquidating DCFC won't help Morris in that respect surely?

There was some kinda cross-guarantee I believe- the charges showed both the Football Group and the Stadium Group included- it's a right old mess it seems.

I see your point though, someone has to pay it- could always liquidate Derby and their assets, player sales and so on to pay off the creditors in order of priority. MSD would come top I expect- how much beyond the £20m or so to MSD would be left who knows.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Morris owns the company that owns the stadium, which owes £20m+ to MSD. That company is not in administration so liquidating DCFC won't help Morris in that respect surely?

It won't. 

But is more along the lines of Morris owns the company, which owns the company which owns the Stadium.  And Morris owns the company, which owns the company, which owns the company, which owns the company which operates as football club, leases the stadium and owes MSD £25 million or so.  So the company which owns the stadium used that as security for the loan to the football company.  So when the man who indirectly owns the company which owns the stadium and indirectly owns the company which runs the football club stopped paying the bills it all got very complicated very quickly.  Simple

Edited May 8, 2022 by Hxj

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

It won't. 

But is more along the lines of Morris owns the company, which owns the company which owns the Stadium.  And Morris owns the company, which owns the company, which owns the company, which owns the company which operates as football club, leases the stadium and owes MSD £25 million or so.  So the company which owns the stadium used that as security for the loan to the football company.  So when the man who indirectly owns the company which owns the stadium and indirectly owns the company which runs the football club stopped paying the bills it all got very complicated very quickly.  Simple

Of course, how silly of me a 3 year old could understand it. Anybody know any 3 year olds I can ask?

[Lanterne Rouge]

17 minutes ago, Hxj said:

It won't. 

But is more along the lines of Morris owns the company, which owns the company which owns the Stadium.  And Morris owns the company, which owns the company, which owns the company, which owns the company which operates as football club, leases the stadium and owes MSD £25 million or so.  So the company which owns the stadium used that as security for the loan to the football company.  So when the man who indirectly owns the company which owns the stadium and indirectly owns the company which runs the football club stopped paying the bills it all got very complicated very quickly.  Simple

If only The Two Ronnies were still with us..........................

Edited May 8, 2022 by Lanterne Rouge

[Mr Popodopolous]

A quick question or thought.

If Mike Ashley and not Kirchner brought Derby, would Derby still be bound by a 2, or if it's a 3 year repayment of 35%, the appropriate Business Plan?

I would hope it is owner neutral and a given, an automatic consequence of going into Insolvency.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Another thought.

MSD takeover, buy inherit whatever Derby. Dell can afford it easily and they cover the debts be it right away or over 3.

Being an investment firm however they would want money back with interest.

1) New loans to Derby at 10% interest. That's one way to clawback.

2) Appropriate rent on Pride Park.

3) Make the club self-financing net of interest and rent.

4) Perhaps throw in inflation linked measures to protect rental and interest payments receivable.

5) When finished they can sell Derby for £1, debt free or hand it to the next guy who passes. 

Could  they even loan Derby the cash to pay down the debt and claw it their total investment etc over x years.

[Derby_Ram]

Think that one is a non-starter given their loans already in place to other clubs. 

[ExiledAjax]

On 01/05/2022 at 14:47, Derby_Ram said:

I think he's been quite astute in them since being burnt by Quantuma initially.

28 April "When asked by BBC East Midlands Today if he [Rooney] felt the deal could be done in the next seven to 10 days, the Rams boss replied: "I think it will. Having seen the progress this week, I think there is a very big chance of that. I know within seven to 10 days, there will be a big change."  

So very, very, very astute.

In my experience of completing M&A deals, some of which have been much more valuable and more complex than this one, you can do a 100 hour week, you can all stay up all night, you can sign side letters here and set conditions there. But, ultimately, there's one thing that gets a deal done - money.

[Hxj]

Selling the family silver, if true, probably gives them another fortnight or so:

Fabrizio Romano

@FabrizioRomano

·

32m

Excl. Liverpool have bought out the sell on clause from Kaide Gordon’s transfer from Derby County. #LFC Been told Liverpool & Derby County have agreed £500,000 for the removal of the 20% sell on clause which appeared in the original deal.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Hxj

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Hxj said:

Selling the family silver, probably gives them another fortnight or so:

Fabrizio Romano

@FabrizioRomano

·

32m

Excl. Liverpool have bought out the sell on clause from Kaide Gordon’s transfer from Derby County. #LFC Been told Liverpool & Derby County have agreed £500,000 for the removal of the 20% sell on clause which appeared in the original deal.

Desperate times.

[Davefevs]

Some Derby fans think Ashley is gonna come in with a bid and gazump Kirchner!