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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


havanatopia
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19 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It's Derby County, paying taxes is for little clubs not the likes of them.

More seriously, unless a deal is finalised by Monday is Kirchner going to cough up to meet the wage bill and other running costs? Or will they use the Liverpool money for that rather than pay the tax due?

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks to Liverpool they might be ok.

They might squeak through on Friday, but will have nothing left on Saturday for other bills.  Cashflow is now a major issue as nothing is coming in.  Plus Administrators are not in a position to 'wing' it and hope a cheque arrives.

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30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

No Insolvency expert but surely being in administration relieves a business of the obligation to pay tax/PAYE etc while this is ongoing?

Just stick it on the slate...

Anything but.  If Administrators are running a business they have to pay all the bills as they become due, or potentially have a personal liability.  The modern definition of insolvency, in the sense of 'are you committing an offence by continuing to trade' is 'not being able to pay the bills as they become due.'

Edited by Hxj
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16 minutes ago, phantom said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how do Liverpool affect Derby financially? 

Liverpool have bought out the sell on clause from Kaide Gordon's earlier transfer from Derby for £500k.

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I know we've all gone back and forth for a long time now.

But for me, doesn't the whole Derby case boil down to the fact that Mel Morris could sort out this financial situation tomorrow if he was so inclined?

Whilst the club itself are insolvent by the looks of it. The owner has plenty of assets (including the stadium), but is now unwilling to in essence pay the bills?

All of these conspiracy theories about the EFL that Derby are putting forward about being treated harshly look completely at odds with the simple truth. Which is Morris wants to sell the club  whilst not paying any of the outstanding bills, or fund ongoing commitments?

Basically one man has pulled the plug, and called everyone's bluff?

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1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Which is Morris wants to sell the club  whilst not paying any of the outstanding bills, or fund ongoing commitments?

Agreed.

But it is also looking increasingly like Kirchner wants to buy the club and ground for virtually nothing.  If he was as wealthy as he says he is, he could also solve the problem.

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14 hours ago, Hxj said:

Anything but.  If Administrators are running a business they have to pay all the bills as they become due, or potentially have a personal liability.  The modern definition of insolvency, in the sense of 'are you committing an offence by continuing to trade' is 'not being able to pay the bills as they become due.'

Hmm, that's a bit of a new one for me. Thought that there was a moratorium of some kind when it came to creditors and insolvency.

There seems to be no urgency for them about paying down debt, or other obligations wages aside. Although did the Statement of Affairs show PAYE etc?

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

This all seems set up for Mike Ashley to come in at the last minute with a take it or leave it offer.

Low enough for a 15 point deduction? EFL monitored business plan with partial Embargo, 2-3 years depending on payment terms also needs to apply in full irrespective of whether it's Ashley, Kirchner, or Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

Renegotiating a new Business Plan will also drag, a takeover can take some time at the EFL level. When Hull sold up to the Turkish guy, think that first came out in mid to late October 2021 and completion occurred or the EFL ratified in mid January 2022.

There was no complexity around stadium, no embargoes, no talk of back rent, Hull were solvent, no HMRC issue, outstanding accounts- you get the picture. Based on that kinda timescale and precedent no reason it should be expedited.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

I know we've all gone back and forth for a long time now.

But for me, doesn't the whole Derby case boil down to the fact that Mel Morris could sort out this financial situation tomorrow if he was so inclined?

Whilst the club itself are insolvent by the looks of it. The owner has plenty of assets (including the stadium), but is now unwilling to in essence pay the bills?

All of these conspiracy theories about the EFL that Derby are putting forward about being treated harshly look completely at odds with the simple truth. Which is Morris wants to sell the club  whilst not paying any of the outstanding bills, or fund ongoing commitments?

Basically one man has pulled the plug, and called everyone's bluff?

You mean Mel " he's wealthy enough and a lifelong Derby fan so would never leave us in a financial mess" Morris?

That's the chappy!

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21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Hmm, that's a bit of a new one for me. Thought that there was a moratorium of some kind when it came to creditors and insolvency.

There is a moratorium in that a creditor cannot sue for a debt where the company is in a formal insolvency process.  However the role as an Administrator is to act as an Officer of the Court in maximising the return the creditors existing at the date of the insolvency, racking up other debts is hard to reconcile with that role. 

Edited by Hxj
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43 minutes ago, Hxj said:

There is a moratorium in that a creditor cannot sue for a debt where the company is in a formal insolvency process.  However the role as an Administrator is to act as an Officer of the Court is maximising the return the creditors existing at the date of the insolvency, racking up other debts is hard to reconcile with that role. 

Thanks, that was my understanding too.

Yes as you say appointed by the Court, to maximise the return for the creditors as of about mid to late September 2021..

...The HMRC debt has risen by £8m, the administrators fees have risen and the MSD debt is now £23-24m?

There was also the ultimately likely to be failed appeal against the administration penalty and the arguing the toss on the FFP issues. That took some valuable time out of the equation, as well as subsequently adding cost.

It's not like any football Insolvency that I have seen before so far.

I'll stick to my original prediction too. Derby won't go bust/get liquidated.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, Hxj said:

Agreed.

But it is also looking increasingly like Kirchner wants to buy the club and ground for virtually nothing.  If he was as wealthy as he says he is, he could also solve the problem.

It’ll be interesting to see how the 95% drop in value of bitcoin this week affects Kitchener’s finances seeing as he apparently made his money in cyber currency. I’ve seen lots of accounts on twitter of people who’ve lost their life savings etc 

As for Morris i do wonder what his finances are like as it could be he can’t afford to give away Pride Park 

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11 minutes ago, East Londoner said:

It’ll be interesting to see how the 95% drop in value of bitcoin this week affects Kitchener’s finances seeing as he apparently made his money in cyber currency. I’ve seen lots of accounts on twitter of people who’ve lost their life savings etc 

As for Morris i do wonder what his finances are like as it could be he can’t afford to give away Pride Park 

*17%. It was Terra stablecoin that tanked 95%, that's a different crypto . Bitcoin itself is still at £23.5k atm. If you bought when it was £60K then sure you're losing atm, but if you bought when it was £300 your still doing OK.

And I thought he said he'd sold it (was it actually Bitcoin that CK was on? Could have been Ethereum or any other) a couple of years ago. I expect he either got in early and bought when it was pennies, or he may have mined it and then sold. Either way, I think his wealth is in cash or traditional business now rather than still tied into crypto.

Edited by ExiledAjax
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37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The HMRC debt has risen by £8m

The difference isn't indicative of anything other than the directors not using the latest number, bear in mind that the August PAYE/NIC deductions are not due until 22 September, plus the September PAYE/NIC deductions for the period to the date of Administration, plus different parts of HMRC might be working different debts and then would be interest and penalties to consider.  

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3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The difference isn't indicative of anything other than the directors not using the latest number, bear in mind that the August PAYE/NIC deductions are not due until 22 September, plus the September PAYE/NIC deductions for the period to the date of Administration, plus different parts of HMRC might be working different debts and then would be interest and penalties to consider.  

Is the debt to Poznan, Arsenal etc over and above what’s been mentioned (or covered under the heading MSD debt) 

The way I am understanding at the moment DCFC owes7

1 HMRC 30m

2 MSD 24m

3 Other Clubs ??

4 Suppliers. ???

5 Utilities ????

6 Other????

7 Does not own stadium (value 2-82m)

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10 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Is the debt to Poznan, Arsenal etc over and above what’s been mentioned (or covered under the heading MSD debt) 

The Poznan debt doesn't appear to have been included, the UK football creditors are probably being paid off from Derby's share of central receipts

 

10 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

1 HMRC 30m

2 MSD 24m

3 Other Clubs ??

4 Suppliers. ???

5 Utilities ????

6 Other????

7 Does not own stadium (value 2-82m)

The HMRC and MSD figures are roughly correct, as at 21 March 2022 the Administrators had received unsecured creditor claims of around 3 million.

Edited by Hxj
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50 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

but if you bought when it was £300 your still doing OK

I bought 200 at around 50 cents around 2010 and sold out at $30 odd dollars each in 2011 .... stunning outcome at the time ... 

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24 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I bought 200 at around 50 cents around 2010 and sold out at $30 odd dollars each in 2011 .... stunning outcome at the time ... 

Have you made an offer to buy Derby County yet then?😉

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1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Have you made an offer to buy Derby County yet then?😉

His offer is imminent!

2 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Is the debt to Poznan, Arsenal etc over and above what’s been mentioned (or covered under the heading MSD debt) 

The way I am understanding at the moment DCFC owes7

1 HMRC 30m

2 MSD 24m

3 Other Clubs ??

4 Suppliers. ???

5 Utilities ????

6 Other????

7 Does not own stadium (value 2-82m)

Yeh, but apart from that they're financially sound.

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The bit that I don't understand. Well amongst other things anyway.

I know they are not obliged to release accounts to CH while in administration but obviously while that remains the case it remains a breach and the Embargo should perhaps remain in its current form.

I digress, provided that all is as it should be, that the details they provided to the EFL were all on point what has prevented them from sticking them on the club website at least.

As soon as the Agreed Decision occurred, there was no reason not to release...onto the website minimum, Embargo would have been eased. Approaching 6 months on, still no accounts of any kind in the public domain for 2018/19, 2019/20 and maybe technically not due until end of June for last season...? Let alone the restated ones if applicable- 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18.

Does it take 6 months?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Nixon says that the Settlement agreed with Gibson was £3m once the stadium is sold.

Number seems fair to me but the method is curious. Little surprising that Gibson agreed to those terms- either way the reported number is far more realistic than the £45m reportedly claimed.

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This won't last but while it does- and it's clear they update this often and quite quickly due to several disappearing from it.

Derby appear to have more offences or similar on here than the other 71 put together! Was approaching that point but a few have now disappeared and Derby are the winners!

image.thumb.png.4425cc8022603da53e3c28625b3fadd3.png

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/embargoes/

Can't believe they still seemingly have not submitted accounts, or filed them- otherwise published them on website and still in breach of the P&S aspect of the accounts. There's nothing to fear in them surely.

Suffice to say, an embargo of some type should remain until every last one of their charges is cleared...and then onto the 2-3 year Business Plan. Scoffing at their plight aside though, the lack of accounts and movement on this is not easy to understand.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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