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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


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Here we go again .....

2064030096_Screenshot2021-09-03at16_14_48.png.39321acc117121bfd68b76b649ff8e21.png

Meanwhile in other news:

Derby County left-back Craig Forsyth has been banned for three games after admitting a charge of violent conduct.

The incident, in the fifth minute of the Rams' Championship draw with Nottingham Forest on Saturday, was not seen by officials at the time.

It means Forsyth, 32, will miss league games against Birmingham, West Brom and Stoke after the international break.

 

 

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Now I'm sure the club in q will step back from this but who knew that the EFL had such powers?

https://the72.co.uk/249479/details-of-possible-transfer-ban-revealed-as-deadline-set-for-derby-county-to-pay-off-outstanding-transfer-fees/

The full story is online, but if they don't settle their Transfer debts that show on the EFL Rap Sheet by the end of the month, they will have a Transfer ban- presumably for fees and the like in January 2022, Summer 2022 and January 2023- normal service resumed by Summer 2023??

I don't know what it means, whether it simply means no fees, or no fees and wage limit or similar.

We'll know in about a month.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now I'm sure the club in q will step back from this but who knew that the EFL had such powers?

https://the72.co.uk/249479/details-of-possible-transfer-ban-revealed-as-deadline-set-for-derby-county-to-pay-off-outstanding-transfer-fees/

The full story is online, but if they don't settle their Transfer debts that show on the EFL Rap Sheet by the end of the month, they will have a Transfer ban- presumably for fees and the like in January 2022, Summer 2022 and January 2023- normal service resumed by Summer 2023??

I don't know what it means, whether it simply means no fees, or no fees and wage limit or similar.

We'll know in about a month.

If Reading's embargo, in which they signed a player who earns around £120,000 a week, is anything to go by. It wont mean much.

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5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If Reading's embargo, in which they signed a player who earns around £120,000 a week, is anything to go by. It wont mean much.

Reading have a possibly unique relationship with Chelsea- that's pretty abnormal, they've helped Reading out before at varied times- usually Embargoes severely restrict clubs.

Of more importance perhaps with Reading is why have they not been charged over FFP yet. EFL site says breached FFP Regs.

Under the terms of their breach, they are allowed to sign players on frees or loans- 1 year deals, to take them up to 24 players and their wage cap was £8,500 per week per player and I think they were allowed to sign 6,

It just so happened that Chelsea chose to subsidise a minimum of 90% of it- combined wages at that club are £170k per week- for Rahman and Drinkwater. 

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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28 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I've pretty much given up with the powers that be.

If the EFL were a gate .....

1429723947_Screenshot2021-09-05at20_11_33.png.ea9880fee5d8ee56b630a3725ed586f2.png

If the EFL were a gate, this is Derby, Reading et al....

Competition Carriage Driving _56718

Edited by downendcity
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EFL are attempting to right historic wrongs in some cases, though the Reading situation is baffling.

The treatment of the latter does seem to be significantly more favourable than Birmingham in 2018 though.

I have to wonder if the EFL only have capacity to pursue one Championship P&S/FFP case at a time. Seems that way in some respects.

Reading aside, it's strange really- fans of the club who are subject of this thread and have not far off as many offences to their name than the other 71 clubs put together, they or some of them anyway still complain bitterly that the EFL are unfair, have an agenda against them etc.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Possibly clutching at straws but one more bit to wonder about maybe.

EFL insolvency Regs don't just include the Club but Group Undertakings as well. Unsure how Parent Undertakings fit.

Were Sevco 5112 Limited to be struck off due to Non Submission how would this cross over?

Insolvency Event constitutes an automatic 12 point deduction. Could a compulsory strike off due to Non compliance be deemed an Insolvency Event and would Sevco 5112 Limited be applicable in any event?

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1 hour ago, Hxj said:

A compulsory strike off is not an insolvency event.

It won't happen as much as I am sure Her Majesty would enjoy owning and running a football club, would make a change from the racehorses

Oh, so Sevco 5112 Limited, Club DCFC Limited, Stadia DCFC Limited and Derby County FC Academy Limited if they got compulsorily struck off would have no consequences for the club?

No Golden share issues? Group, Parent, Subsidiary undertakings...

Club DCFC Limited is still trading at the very least, updates its Twitter daily.

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28 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

if they got compulsorily struck off would have no consequences for the club?

It would be a change in control event.  That said I doubt that the EFL would argue that Her Majesty in her Official capacity was not a 'Fit and Proper Person' 🤣🤣🤣

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Derby. Looks like the talks still ongoing.

It's not so much negotiations I expect as the EFL propose a Sanction and the Club have a period to decide whether to accept it- whereas rejection or ignoring the proposal escalates it back to an IDC.

I would expect it possible that an IDC would drag and surely Embargo sanctions would remain during said period- wonder how long it takes? January window? :whistle:

I also assume this would be to cover the outstanding periods to 2019, the combined 2020 and 2021 average and to 2022- or at least the Business Plan with suspended deduction to keep the Club in check).

Working back to 2017? Could that be theoretically possible, but tbh the EFL have never mentioned it so...

Some on their forum still argue it's within FRS 102 btw- which is debatable and arguable probably.

Interesting line of argument from a couple as well- what they did didn't break the rules as such, but merely wasn't covered by the rules.

This post sums up a possibility EFL wise/

image.thumb.png.408cdd59997534121389c78ec7809c7a.png

Seems to be under 85.4 and so on.

image.thumb.png.7fa1d95aad861d22797383d13b41f399.png

I think we can all safely agree, despite possible disagreements on other threads- Mel Morris is an arrogant POS who thinks he is above everything, esp the first 4 words- the arrogance of that line "wants the rules changing as we havn't broken any rules, just done them a different way".

As for the law courts, erm- terms of membership??

As for all that, whether the poster has any validity or basis in truth to their post is one thing but I certainly think Mel Morris is an arrogant POS. "Ill"- or was that a timely bit of PR!?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Saw that, just need Cardiff to pay for Sala now.

Re Derby proposed points deduction, think Percy put up another tweet saying 9 points plus 3 suspended.  But agree with you, a lot of people saying why are Derby getting to negotiate, I see it as the EFL have decided, and Derby need to accept or challenge it.  If they challenge it, it’s gonna drag on, they’ll be kept under sanction and run the risk of impacting January too

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Agree with that.

Sala, Cardiff v Nantes all in the hands of the CAS atm. Could be wrong but wonder if all parties have to wait for that to conclude before the next move.

Little update on Derby. They've submitted at last 2021 Confirmation Statements for:

Club DCFC

Derby County FC Academy

Stadia DCFC

Plus CH says that for Sevco 5112 the 2020 one has now arrived.

Threat of strike off now gone, but don't think it was ever likely that the Club or ownership would have let it slide to strike off, I had a small conspiracy theory but not necessarily serious.

Likewise the two year Transfer Ban would have been hilarious but in reality they were likely to have paid up an instalment.

In both cases, needed to do something small to avoid the immiment big problems. They have.

On a general note, it is possible at least that I have misattributed certain aspects of Mel Morris any his actions as Machievellian as opposed to rank bad management.

Still think he has and has had plenty of cunning plans but these two bits of brinkmanship may not have been.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Hahahaha

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58501958

Wayne Wooney whining again.

You really would think he'd learn to keep his mouth shut and pick his battles given how lightly Derby have been punished.  Don't want to anger the Gods and all that (I appreciate the irony in that in this case, the FA Gods more of your fake Wizzard of Oz type God).

I guess he's still got a lot to learn 🤷 

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As an aside, unsure why, two clubs especially, Derby and Sheffield Wednesday didn't look to take their medicine at a better time for them.

Two cases, where fighting constantly isn't always wise.

Sheffield Wednesday take a deduction on the chin in 2018/19 with full contrition, transparency and cooperation. Derby in 2019/20 when initially charged and clearly not going up- better than Embargo upon Embargo, Charge upon Charge surely- take the hit, accept no Promotion in Year X and then look to rebuild steadily, perhaps in Derby's case, under new owners while the club still at this level.

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They had something like 67% of the ball against Birmingham but from what I saw it was painfully slow build up and apart from Lawrence it doesn't seem like there is much in way of goals in the team. Also looks like they can be pressured into making a fair few mistakes at the back. 

I have never really cared for Derby but there is something about an underdog story that makes me want to root for them just a little (their players and coaches I mean, nothing to do with their owners and fans). But if they get a points deduction this season I think they are definitely relegated.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Derby fan getting salty that Troy Deeney getting mentioned more than Wayne Rooney.

Jeez, they are hypocritical.

Hypocritical, incapable of irony or just not very bright?

Given they think there is a conspiracy against them by the EFL and referees my money's on the latter.

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@chinapig

Do you ever read DCFCfans? It's interesting stuff, though I've been quite hard on that forum in the past, which I won't go into tbh but some still seem to believe that the Accounting Policy deemed not in accordance with FRS 102 is in fact the EFL making things up/getting things wrong. Not in so many words but they believe their Accounting Treatment is in fact right, some of them- yet a guy who claims it has according to him, between 20-25 years Audit and Accounting Experience...shame the League Arbitration Panel didn't agree! Differences in interpretation perhaps...don't see the EFL giving ground however, unsure how they can.

There has been a victim mentality/narrative on there in recent times though, which is at odds with the reality- well yes and no because in a sense they are victims- but of an owner who is bad/inept/reckless or even just plain old stubborn as hell!

13 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

They had something like 67% of the ball against Birmingham but from what I saw it was painfully slow build up and apart from Lawrence it doesn't seem like there is much in way of goals in the team. Also looks like they can be pressured into making a fair few mistakes at the back. 

I have never really cared for Derby but there is something about an underdog story that makes me want to root for them just a little (their players and coaches I mean, nothing to do with their owners and fans). But if they get a points deduction this season I think they are definitely relegated.

See what you're getting at, but a club with a multi million Bielik and Lawrence still on the books to name 2...and despite everything youngsters such as Knight, Sibley and Buchanan who have considerable promise on the books, then Byrne and Marshall- the latter two sound odd but remember how Wigan surged post Christmas 2019 up to and even including admin, under Cook- they not only beat teams but started hammering them, playing them off the park going from doomed to midtable prior to the -12 - they plundered both in Summer 2020 when Wigan into admin through a freak event, then a Jozwiak who featured v England and joined for multi millions.

There is tbh- only IMO of course- a case to say that Derby should have a reasonable chance of survival, subject to injuries and depth issues of course- plus of course the great unknown ie the deduction or non deduction.

13 hours ago, chinapig said:

Hypocritical, incapable of irony or just not very bright?

Given they think there is a conspiracy against them by the EFL and referees my money's on the latter.

Some conspiracy eh! 🙃

Last 2 games, when the ref missed Forsyth's well wasn't so much tackle as on the Forest players- *ahem*- tackle albeit he got the retrospective 3 match ban from the FA and Lawrence leading with the elbow vs Birmingham, it merited a free kick only. Latter could be elevation or accidental, Shearer after all liked an elbow IIRC but if ref saw it- talking the Lawrence challenge- no ban possible surely.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Will add a bit more.

Accounting wise...multiple links to ponder as to whether Derby's apparent (source: Kieran Maguire) £30m claim is within FRS 102, let alone P&S Regs or not.

The extra Profit could well have been something else, maybe the difference between Depreciation between Cost and Revaluation methods as opposed to the £30m...ie lop that off the Carrying Value. EFL won't accept it willingly I'm certain but..

https://www.accaglobal.com/lk/en/student/exam-support-resources/professional-exams-study-resources/strategic-business-reporting/technical-articles/pl-concepts.html

https://annualreporting.info/reclassification-adjustments/

https://fincyclopedia.net/accounting/r/reclassification-adjustment

One of these links is listed in $ which throws me, another is IAS 16 which could well differ materially to FRS 102.

https://www.accaglobal.com/my/en/student/exam-support-resources/professional-exams-study-resources/strategic-business-reporting/technical-articles/profit-loss-oci.html

https://www.iasplus.com/en/standards/ias/ias16

https://www.accaglobal.com/lk/en/student/exam-support-resources/professional-exams-study-resources/strategic-business-reporting/technical-articles/pl-concepts.html#No-OCI-and-no-reclassification

Then.

This Revaluation Reserve was transferred in 2018 on disposal to Profit and Loss Account- as in the cumulative Profit and Loss Account as opposed to the annual one- even with it included, it was -£42m...surely you cannot cherry pick one Reserve like that?

As for the Sevco 5112 Accounts, even were you to add that £30m into those- these consolidated Accounts were active from 2015/16 to present but most recent Accounts to 2017/18 ie June 2018- even were you to add it in, then the cumulative P&L would still be negative ie below zero...again the whole cherry picking question.

This was the Revaluation Surplus ie the remaining Revaluation Reserve at time of disposal and the possible basis of Derby's claim about the extra Profit on disposal.

This thread also calls into q the claims of an extra £30m Accounting Treatment wise...

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/frs-102-other-comprehensive-income

...As do the EFL's own Regulations and how it could be recognised- where is the place to put it?? The possible bit about Depreciation differences maybe one avenue but then Depreciation is of course excluded from the overall loss for FFP so? 🤷‍♂️

image.png.21eab0941f1a5ad6cb9fb3383a9f11e2.png

Plus ⬇️

image.png.48d83fa1801b1cba85d16a696d352011.png

A problem here is that this is for the division below but in theory could add a bit of clarity.

I think we know what the answer to 2.10 would be! :D 2.9... "For the avoidance of doubt any revaluation reserves do not qualify for inclusion". 

Accumulated Profit basically I believe is Retained Earnings- Derby's is negative no? Let alone the exclusion of Revaluation Reserves for EFL purposes- wonder if that clause was written with anyone in mind?

There are so many arguments against it seems.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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