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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


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22 hours ago, Hxj said:

So was I!  It should have read 2017/18 to 2020/21

 

Thanks- this is the bit that slips out of the narrative of discussions by their fans on it, or often can anyway- even if that sees them right to 2018 and up to 2020/21, it slips out and is replaced by a loss of whatever size as starting point in 2018/19.

You might also be interested to know that, as with last Jan when the charges first materialised, some of their fans are suggesting that perhaps the club should seek injunctive relief- but I'm unsure whether that's permitted under the system.

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The system that all clubs are bound by, so I must assume they are one of them, that sign up to and have signed up to this.

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All from here...

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/b3cd34c726c341ca9636610aa4503172/regulations-season-2021-22-final.pdf

Unless I've misread something fairly sure Section 44 of the Arbitration Act covers it..."exclusion extends to any rights that would otherwise arise under:" Included in that is, yes we've guessed it, Section 44...anyway they'd have to go through the initial IDC before even reaching this stage surely- "Membership of the League shall constitute" tells me that they have to go through the system as it is with only challenges under Section 67 and 68 a possibility once it reaches the LAP.

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It's a view that's gaining traction on there among a few- was hoping to edit that post but ran out of time...one or two say "walk away from this process and go down the Court route"- pretty sure it doesn't work like that!!

Likewise, going to the CAS- it's not impossible I guess but it feels like significant barriers would exist.

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95.1.2 feels quite pertinent- from the same link above.

In further good news, if things are still dragging then it appears that they might have maxed out professional standing even if Jagielka and Baldock leave on expiration of contract. Gives the EFL a little more leverage.

1 start or sub appearance at the relevant levels or in the relevant competitions=Professional Standing but excluding the Chorley game.

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

some of their fans are suggesting that perhaps the club should seek injunctive relief

No chance of court action.  The membership rules expressly prohibit it.

However DCFC could institue a dispute with the EFL with the objective of requiring the EFL to lift the Transfer Embargo, assuming of course that the EFL are playing silly. See rule 95.2.   I'm really surprised that given the weight of the DCFC case, or at least the amount of hot air expended on it on DCFCFans that they haven't come up with this solution.

I wonder why MM and the super duper legal teanm haven't either - makes you wonder if they really have been caught out badly.

Oh and they are still whining on about the accounts being approved by the EFL - the rest of their views make more sense if the two decisions haven;t even been read!

 

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Their players must be finding out what their new salaries are about shouldn't they? That could be interesting.

Alan Nixon

@reluctantnicko

Derby County. Players turn up for training fearing the worst after Morris comments. Have summit and then ALL handed contracts. Names on but no figures of wages. Need to be signed by tomorrow midday to play at weekend. Beyond words

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19 hours ago, Hxj said:

No chance of court action.  The membership rules expressly prohibit it.

However DCFC could institue a dispute with the EFL with the objective of requiring the EFL to lift the Transfer Embargo, assuming of course that the EFL are playing silly. See rule 95.2.   I'm really surprised that given the weight of the DCFC case, or at least the amount of hot air expended on it on DCFCFans that they haven't come up with this solution.

I wonder why MM and the super duper legal teanm haven't either - makes you wonder if they really have been caught out badly.

Oh and they are still whining on about the accounts being approved by the EFL - the rest of their views make more sense if the two decisions haven;t even been read!

 

Yep agreed- a few are suggesting the CAS as opposed to the domestic courts here, but again it strikes me as being incompatible with the membership rules.

That's an interesting idea...although I wonder if Regulation 16.20 is the one here, or indeed if the fact that HMRC obligations appear to be outstanding might trump aspects of the other cases.

They along with SWFC used Nick De Marco on this, unsure if he's involved at this moment- Geldards appear to be the clubs lawyers in general, they're not a small firm as far as I can tell though tbh I have little knowledge of their work etc.

The funny thing is that their take on there, I used to slate but actually appears to have more criticism than the fanbase at large- have read that there are very few anti Mel Morris chants at games...as a % you'll probably get more critical discussion on there, but I reckon a lot of their fans ie the wider fanbase, see the club as the victims here. Perhaps a greater % than on DCFCFans!

On a side note, was interested to read that Kazim-Richards is claimed to be back by after the October International break...

...Interested because one of the reasons for Baldock getting dispensation to sign was a long term injury! Reference to an operation too- of which there is no sign. I wonder if the EFL would have a view here if he's back 6 weeks, 2 months or maybe longer ahead of schedule and they signed Baldock at least in part due to this.

They also appear to have classed a number of their Players- those that would be deemed as Players of Professional Standing- as Under 21's. Even though that particular Regulation when under Embargo has no age limit as far as I can see. That drops to 16 between windows as per the Embargo Reporting Service, the Professional Standing bit.

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Plus 3 suspended too.

Plus they need to be under a business plan too, but that hasn’t been agreed.  Puts them bottom, below Forest.

I expect that the Business Plan could  be fairly easy to calculate.

Whatever their remaining Headroom either if it's aggregate 3 year loss or adjusted if both reset to £13m + Allowable Costs due to a breach in the prior years- they can spend that, be it on fees, loans or similar...

Perhaps there would be an Upper Wage Cap...the 3 suspended feels like it could mean a few things, I'd say a good way for 3 suspended could be to have it tied to the Business Plan ie 9 now and in March/April if Business Plan breached or if further overspending when the Projections sent in, 9 > 12 just like that.

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EFL Statement - EFL statement: Derby County - News - EFL Official Website

"In response to ongoing media speculation, the EFL wishes to clarify that discussions with Derby County in respect of outstanding Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) matters are continuing and no decision has yet been reached.

On 2 July 2021, an Independent Disciplinary Commission found in favour of the EFL in respect of its challenge to the Club’s policy on amortising player registrations.  The Club received a £100,000 financial penalty, a reprimand as to its future behaviour and ordered to submit revised accounts for the years ended 30 June 2016, 2017, and 2018.  

In an attempt to resolve all remaining issues with the EFL in regard to its P&S submissions the Club provided the EFL with information prior to last month’s deadline and this remains under review by the League’s Executive.

In any disciplinary matter, the EFL will always consider whether it can be concluded by way of an Agreed Decision as per EFL Regulation 85.  An Agreed Decision, which is subject to independent ratification, is deemed appropriate in circumstances which justify the conclusion of an effective and equitable resolution without a referral to a Disciplinary Commission.

There are no timescales for this matter to be concluded and the League will not be providing any further comment at this time."

 

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2 hours ago, Hxj said:

EFL Statement - EFL statement: Derby County - News - EFL Official Website

"In response to ongoing media speculation, the EFL wishes to clarify that discussions with Derby County in respect of outstanding Profitability and Sustainability (P&S) matters are continuing and no decision has yet been reached.

On 2 July 2021, an Independent Disciplinary Commission found in favour of the EFL in respect of its challenge to the Club’s policy on amortising player registrations.  The Club received a £100,000 financial penalty, a reprimand as to its future behaviour and ordered to submit revised accounts for the years ended 30 June 2016, 2017, and 2018.  

In an attempt to resolve all remaining issues with the EFL in regard to its P&S submissions the Club provided the EFL with information prior to last month’s deadline and this remains under review by the League’s Executive.

In any disciplinary matter, the EFL will always consider whether it can be concluded by way of an Agreed Decision as per EFL Regulation 85.  An Agreed Decision, which is subject to independent ratification, is deemed appropriate in circumstances which justify the conclusion of an effective and equitable resolution without a referral to a Disciplinary Commission.

There are no timescales for this matter to be concluded and the League will not be providing any further comment at this time."

 

Hmm, no reference to 2019 and beyond or could that perhaps have been the additional info? Restatement of those 3 seasons causes a knock on effect for a lot of seasons, FFP periods.

"No timescales"- that's positive, means that the EFL can't be bounced into making excessive concessions against a ticking clock?

Despite what I said in Paragraph 1 however, I have to assume that any possible EFL-Derby settlement would incorporate the whole period ie 2015/16 to 2020/21 and include limits to keep in line for 2021/22.

On the timescale bit, I'm torn between 'Justice delayed is justice denied' and 'Justice rushed is justice crushed'. If it drags they can just see their takeover but more pertinently the chance of any new signings drag especially as they could be up to 23 of Professional Standing by Jan even with contracts of Jagielka and Baldock expiring.

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I could be being unfair here, but wow if true.

Steve Nicholson is the local journo for Derby- everyone has one, he's our Gregor basically.

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it's a Q & A- again all normal- but he appears to be asking the fan if Birmingham had a Business Plan imposed?? 😱

The fan says it's unprecedented and totally new and the journo- you know the one from a position of greater knowledge- appears to be asking the fan about Birmingham's situation.

You'd kinda hope journos would have a significantly better grasp of their brief when it comes to a major story or potentially major story involving the club that they cover...

In answer to his Q. Yes- yes they did!

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11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I could be being unfair here, but wow if true.

Steve Nicholson is the local journo for Derby- everyone has one, he's our Gregor basically.

image.png.74ff45604842938b809eaf9b2fcf6170.png

it's a Q & A- again all normal- but he appears to be asking the fan if Birmingham had a Business Plan imposed?? 😱

The fan says it's unprecedented and totally new and the journo- you know the one from a position of greater knowledge- appears to be asking the fan about Birmingham's situation.

You'd kinda hope journos would have a significantly better grasp of their brief when it comes to a major story or potentially major story involving the club that they cover...

In answer to his Q. Yes- yes they did!

I guess he might not have been asking a question, but the question mark being slightly tongue in cheek.  Unlikely though, think I’m giving him too much credit.

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I guess he might not have been asking a question, but the question mark being slightly tongue in cheek.  Unlikely though, think I’m giving him too much credit.

That could be true, I will caveat my post a bit...a suitable answer though would have been "Yes, in order to ensure not only compliance in the present season but in future seasons to come". Joke or not, it was a bit of an odd answer- certainly didn't clarify anything in any case.

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Seems that there's a call for a protest on Dcfcfans. Perhaps tomorrow.

Against which party?

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38278-protest-against-the-right-people/

Draw your own conclusions as to which party they deem to be the 'right' people.

@downendcity @Hxj @chinapig @Davefevs

Unbelievable their take tbh. Rick Parry should resign or the FSA should get involved, or the PFA for restraint of trade all mentioned in recent days.

Problem is, I see precious little chance of sympathy from other clubs or fans of those clubs, especially those at this level or punished via FFP.

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21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems that there's a call for a protest on Dcfcfans. Perhaps tomorrow.

Against which party?

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38278-protest-against-the-right-people/

Draw your own conclusions as to which party they deem to be the 'right' people.

@downendcity @Hxj @chinapig @Davefevs

Unbelievable their take tbh. Rick Parry should resign or the FSA should get involved, or the PFA for restraint of trade all mentioned in recent days.

Problem is, I see precious little chance of sympathy from other clubs or fans of those clubs, especially those at this level or punished via FFP.

Credit DCFC27 for sticking his/her head above the parapet. He/she seems to get it. This is his/her post on that thread.

"Whichever way we dress it up we broke the rules... he bent over backwards to avoid FFP so is it a massive surprise they want us punished... We had to work out an accounting process to work around the rules and sell our stadium so that we could make the signings we have. Ultimately he tried to cheat and he's embarrassed the club and the fans. We'll probably go into league one on the back of his ownership so ultimately I don't blame fans if they want Mel out. Whilst I don't doubt his intentions and commitment to Derby County he has monumentally failed!"

Unfortunately, I suspect this will be a pretty loan voice among the cacophony of fans shouting loudly about Derby being the victims and the EFL being the villains. There have been many failures by the EFL as far as the implementation, application and policing of it’s own ffp rules is concerned,  and the feeling that offending clubs have been too easily able to “get away” with it. I wonder how much  Derby fans' chagrin is because they feel hard done by, because the EFL have been diligently following through their investigation into the club’s affairs as far as ffp rules are concerned, when they thought that they had “got away with it” with the sale of Pride Park? 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Credit DCFC27 for sticking his/her head above the parapet. He/she seems to get it. This is his/her post on that thread.

"Whichever way we dress it up we broke the rules... he bent over backwards to avoid FFP so is it a massive surprise they want us punished... We had to work out an accounting process to work around the rules and sell our stadium so that we could make the signings we have. Ultimately he tried to cheat and he's embarrassed the club and the fans. We'll probably go into league one on the back of his ownership so ultimately I don't blame fans if they want Mel out. Whilst I don't doubt his intentions and commitment to Derby County he has monumentally failed!"

Unfortunately, I suspect this will be a pretty loan voice among the cacophony of fans shouting loudly about Derby being the victims and the EFL being the villains. There have been many failures by the EFL as far as the implementation, application and policing of it’s own ffp rules is concerned,  and the feeling that offending clubs have been too easily able to “get away” with it. I wonder how much  Derby fans' chagrin is because they feel hard done by, because the EFL have been diligently following through their investigation into the club’s affairs as far as ffp rules are concerned, when they thought that they had “got away with it” with the sale of Pride Park? 

 

 

 

Credit to DCFC27 for sure. A lone voice yet a decent handle on things.

Yep agreed, plenty will cast it as a Victims and Villains scenario. It will have happened with other clubs ie Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday but surely not to this level. Then again perhaps was because their cases didn't drag as long.

Yeah agreed, EFL have in the past been slack, slow and incompetent in this regard. I sense a sea change this Summer onwards however. The fixed asset loophole has belatedly been shut, the Embargo Reporting Service delivers more transparency. Quite encouragingly the EFL update suggested yesterday that there was no upper time limit on the process. It should if necessary take as long as it takes.

Think a lot of these issues stem back to Shaun Harvey's tenure...and talking of the stadium sale he actually sped up the process to return to later ahead of the summer window. He left a mass of problems for his successor!! Not just FFP but in general buy certainly FFP wise.

For balance, took a quick look at the Sanctioning Hearing which ordered restated accounts and it suggested that Derby accepted it for this purpose but still held the view that their amortisation method was accurate etc.

Agreed too, a lot of the fans are probably dismayed that the EFL are doing a thorough job. Remember 'EFL on strings'?

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Seems that there's a call for a protest on Dcfcfans. Perhaps tomorrow.

Against which party?

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38278-protest-against-the-right-people/

Draw your own conclusions as to which party they deem to be the 'right' people.

@downendcity @Hxj @chinapig @Davefevs

Unbelievable their take tbh. Rick Parry should resign or the FSA should get involved, or the PFA for restraint of trade all mentioned in recent days.

Problem is, I see precious little chance of sympathy from other clubs or fans of those clubs, especially those at this level or punished via FFP.

After much thought I shall join the protest by writing to Parry demanding an amendment to the rules as follows:

1.0 Nothing in these rules shall apply to Wayne Rooney's Derby County on the grounds that they used to be good decades ago when Brian Clough was their manager and on the additional grounds that neither their owner nor their fans are capable of reading and/or understanding the rules anyway.

I'm sure all right minded fans, and the owners of all EFL clubs will join me in urging this change in the interests of justice for a club admired by fans the world over.*

*though the last point is disputed by a famous League 2 club so may need to go to arbitration.

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5 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

What a statement. Always the victims!

So the Administration Team will be in effect selling the club as a League One club.  There’s little chance they’d get enough points (say 70) to offset a 21 point deduction.  The aim of any new owners will be to either try to get enough points to avoid minus 12 being carried into next season next season, so probably still need circa 60 points.  Tough ask.

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

BBC are reporting that Derby will lose 12 points.

Automatically yep.  But they still have the other EFL charges….this is not one or the other.

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