Jump to content
IGNORED

Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not that it wouldn't be unawarranted but it feels a pointless exercise possibly. To repeat and add to what I said when he spoke of it months ago.

A) His figures feel sketchy. I've always thought £5-7m at the upper end. Unsure where £20m comes from??

B) League and Clubs have to submit to pursuit of action under arbitration. Middlesbrough's cases were through this method. How much can an arbitration panel award? 

C) Who would the club pursue? EFL, Derby? Other parties involved but not directly?

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

Was always under the impression that Parachute Payments no longer due to clubs promoted back were redistributed back among PL clubs.

On a side note, to any readers from DCFCFans I don't want the club to go bust but a good period of suffering on the pitch would be quite warranted.

Full implementation of EFL regulations is a must.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

There would of been extra money due to Norwich and Watford winning promotion as their parachute payments get divided up between the rest of the championship clubs

If a promoted Championship club comes straight back down they get 2 years PPs.  The 3rd years gets divvied back amongst the PL clubs, not the championship…..it’s crap, but that’s what happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If a promoted Championship club comes straight back down they get 2 years PPs.  The 3rd years gets divvied back amongst the PL clubs, not the championship…..it’s crap, but that’s what happens.

why it seems just pie in the sky

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting bit, found the quotes from Mel Morris on FFP.

 

That is the confirmation of the breach to 2018- the exact wording.

image.png.e3cc8f5d95b94ca2ade60a2c4b404be4.png

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-mel-morris-interview-5939387

Scratch that, found another link.

How do they go about continuing to fight on the FFP front when in admin- @Hxj would the administrators fund this? Given they need paying themselves on top of the running costs of the club...legal fees? Who pays for these if Derby don't want to accept the -9 or -9 + 3 and Business Plan.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How do they go about continuing to fight on the FFP front when in admin- @Hxj would the administrators fund this? Given they need paying themselves on top of the running costs of the club...legal fees? Who pays for these if Derby don't want to accept the -9 or -9 + 3 and Business Plan.

The Administrators (if they are appointed) have to run the company for the benefit of the creditors as a whole, the directors also lose all powers over the company.  So I can see that if there is the reasonable prospect of a sale it would fall within the Administrators' role to continue the fight.  That said it will all come down to cash.  Are there sufficient funds available to meet the ongoing costs?  Is any external funding available?

On a related issue it is possible to appeal the 12 point penalty for the insolvency event.  However the EFL rules are surprisingly tight on this issue:

  • 12.12 Any Sporting Sanctions Appeal must be in writing and be received by The League at its registered office no later than seven days after The League serves the Notice. The Sporting Sanctions Appeal must contain a statement setting out the grounds of appeal and provide copies of any documentation upon which the Club intends to rely in support of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
  • 12.13 The Club must also lodge with The League, at the same time as the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, a deposit of £5,000 in respect of the costs of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
  • 12.14 Upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal The League shall refer the matter to the League Arbitration Panel in accordance with the provisions of Section 9 of these Regulations, supplemented by the provisions of this Regulation 12, and in the event of any conflict between Section 9 and this Regulation, this Regulation shall prevail.
  • 12.15 The League shall, immediately upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, instruct a firm of independent accountants to carry out a review of the activities of the Club and/or any Group Undertaking for the purposes of preparing an independent report into the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the relevant Insolvency Event(s). The Club shall meet the costs of preparation of that report in any event. The report shall be provided to the Club, the League Arbitration Panel and The League. The League Arbitration Panel shall take into account the contents of that report when determining whether the insolvency proceedings arose solely as a result of a Force Majeure event.
  • 12.16 The League Arbitration Panel shall hear any Sporting Sanctions Appeal within 21 days of the lodgement of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
  • 12.17 The Club shall bear the burden of proof in relation to the matters set out in the Sporting Sanctions Appeal on the balance of probabilities.
  • 12.18 The League Arbitration Panel shall have the power to: 12.18.1 confirm the deduction of 12 points; or 29 12.18.2 set aside the deduction of 12 points and substitute a deduction of such lower number of points as it shall deem appropriate; or 12.18.3 order that there shall be no sanction at all.
  • 12.19 Any costs incurred by any party in proceedings brought before the League Arbitration Panel shall be met by the Club in any event and shall be considered as a sum due to The League for the purposes of Article 48

So if the Administrators wish to appeal (no one else can) they are then incurring a significant cost burden, plus they need to act rapidly.

Edited by Hxj
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Interesting bit, found the quotes from Mel Morris on FFP.

 

That is the confirmation of the breach to 2018- the exact wording.

image.png.e3cc8f5d95b94ca2ade60a2c4b404be4.png

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-mel-morris-interview-5939387

Scratch that, found another link.

How do they go about continuing to fight on the FFP front when in admin- @Hxj would the administrators fund this? Given they need paying themselves on top of the running costs of the club...legal fees? Who pays for these if Derby don't want to accept the -9 or -9 + 3 and Business Plan.

I love how he is so “vague” about it….almost like there’s more to it, but he’s trying his usual hard-done-by look.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Taking your figure at face value, it may have a bearing on the club going into Administration but I don't see how it is relevant to pre-Covid breaches of P&S.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Us most likely as well as about 13 other championship clubs who stuck to the rules

 

You're getting what you deserve for cheating 

 

  • Like 4
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

Have you any thoughts though on the owner admitting a P&S breach of 4 points to 2018 under the restated method? 

There's little denial now, HE admitted it in an interview.

Overarching settlement seems the best bet. Otherwise it's into administration, - 12 and the EFL continue with the embargo, the charges and the process which has no timescale on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Hxj said:

The Administrators (if they are appointed) have to run the company for the benefit of the creditors as a whole, the directors also lose all powers over the company.  So I can see that if there is the reasonable prospect of a sale it would fall within the Administrators' role to continue the fight.  That said it will all come down to cash.  Are there sufficient funds available to meet the ongoing costs?  Is any external funding available?

On a related issue it is possible to appeal the 12 point penalty for the insolvency event.  However the EFL rules are surprisingly tight on this issue:

  • 12.12 Any Sporting Sanctions Appeal must be in writing and be received by The League at its registered office no later than seven days after The League serves the Notice. The Sporting Sanctions Appeal must contain a statement setting out the grounds of appeal and provide copies of any documentation upon which the Club intends to rely in support of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
  • 12.13 The Club must also lodge with The League, at the same time as the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, a deposit of £5,000 in respect of the costs of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
  • 12.14 Upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal The League shall refer the matter to the League Arbitration Panel in accordance with the provisions of Section 9 of these Regulations, supplemented by the provisions of this Regulation 12, and in the event of any conflict between Section 9 and this Regulation, this Regulation shall prevail.
  • 12.15 The League shall, immediately upon receipt of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal, instruct a firm of independent accountants to carry out a review of the activities of the Club and/or any Group Undertaking for the purposes of preparing an independent report into the circumstances surrounding and leading up to the relevant Insolvency Event(s). The Club shall meet the costs of preparation of that report in any event. The report shall be provided to the Club, the League Arbitration Panel and The League. The League Arbitration Panel shall take into account the contents of that report when determining whether the insolvency proceedings arose solely as a result of a Force Majeure event.
  • 12.16 The League Arbitration Panel shall hear any Sporting Sanctions Appeal within 21 days of the lodgement of the Sporting Sanctions Appeal.
  • 12.17 The Club shall bear the burden of proof in relation to the matters set out in the Sporting Sanctions Appeal on the balance of probabilities.
  • 12.18 The League Arbitration Panel shall have the power to: 12.18.1 confirm the deduction of 12 points; or 29 12.18.2 set aside the deduction of 12 points and substitute a deduction of such lower number of points as it shall deem appropriate; or 12.18.3 order that there shall be no sanction at all.
  • 12.19 Any costs incurred by any party in proceedings brought before the League Arbitration Panel shall be met by the Club in any event and shall be considered as a sum due to The League for the purposes of Article 48

So if the Administrators wish to appeal (no one else can) they are then incurring a significant cost burden, plus they need to act rapidly.

7 days then? Seems unlikely but as you say maybe wider interest of creditors.

Thinking more of the FFP appeals and cases, would be interesting to know how a club in administration could afford to keep fighting on that front.

Could be wrong but don't ever remember a case with  a club going into administration with P&S issues running concurrently.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

'..last season'...what season that? Could be it's a much lower percentage than most clubs, depending upon which period the ground sale actually fell in, as opposed to what Morris stated.

I thought Derby County FC LTD only filed accounts to the period end June 2018 at Companies House. That the accounts to June 2019 are overdue by 15 months, surely fans must have cottoned-on to what's been happening?

Forget the fiction filed with the EFL, let's see what Morris' latest version of events comes up with.

  • Flames 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wasn't he involved with Portsmouth? Maybe I'm getting him mixed up with someone else...

I do hope Derby have a bit of a hard landing with this admin, might teach their fans some humility- at least the loud and "we can do no wrong" section. There will surely still be a club, very rare for clubs to go bust outright, because even Bury still technically haven't gone fully, but a hard landing might teach some humility.

As an aside, there seems to be very little talk among DCFC fans about players being sold to fund running costs etc. Unless I'm a couple of days behind the curve.

The talk of £10m in income with season ticket and general sales but I was under the impression that those who kept their cash in the club ie didn't get refunds for 2020/21 get it for free or a small amount for this season- would this be in addition to that? In other words that cash is already accounted for/has already been spent surely.

PPS- I ask, given that they are in administration HOW DO THEY INTEND TO PAY FOR IT!

image.thumb.png.8a44566fabb681eff13da8667be639b6.png

This post is riddled with inaccuracies...Birmingham were £9.5m maybe over and got a 7 pts for overspend, 3 for increasing losses in successive years and 1 back for cooperation.

He also has no reference to 2019 or beyond...and says they should try and appeal or reduce the admin penalty- good god!! Where to begin...?

Their total club/group wage bill is purportedly only £15-20m, but that disregards all of the other running costs for a fairly decent sized 2nd tier club.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Percentage of income lost last season would have been about 50% (£15m). Name another club which lost a higher percentage.

if you've come on here looking for a shoulder to cry on, you're out of luck mate, your club gambled and lost,time to pay the house !

Edited by slartibartfast
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is being stated that Quantuma have been appointed Administrators by MSD.

Morris no longer has any control over the football club.

As the Stadium companies owed the football club £80 odd million in 2018 I'd expect the Stadium companies to enter administration very soon.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Hxj said:

It is being stated that Quantuma have been appointed Administrators by MSD.

Morris no longer has any control over the football club.

As the Stadium companies owed the football club £80 odd million in 2018 I'd expect the Stadium companies to enter administration very soon.

Spot on. And for those who bang on about AG & it's value, it's a Football Stadium. It facilitates income from a football club and, er, not much else. That's why such assets have RLVs much, much lower than folks imagine.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Spot on. And for those who bang on about AG & it's value, it's a Football Stadium. It facilitates income from a football club and, er, not much else. That's why such assets have RLVs much, much lower than folks imagine.

Supposing that one of these modern grounds, not talking here or Pride Park but generally, was repurposed for events in lieu of football though?

Concerts, Trade Shows and much else in between. Add a hotel on site, less football facilities could mean more room for parking etc.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I did find genuinely surprising and not a positive was that I read Derby going into administration got about 1 minutes worth of coverage on Football Focus.

Irrespective of my (very) strong views on the club, their actions, Mel Morris that's not a healthy sign indicator for modern football.

Historic clubs, any club tbh going into the administration process- well that's a shocker.

Dont get me wrong their mismanagement for a time before Covid had them approaching the edge, Covid maybe tipped them over the edge but clubs and their solvency...serious stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Supposing that one of these modern grounds, not talking here or Pride Park but generally, was repurposed for events in lieu of football though?

Concerts, Trade Shows and much else in between. Add a hotel on site, less football facilities could mean more room for parking etc.

If you want to hold concerts, or trade shows, or whatever, build that which is fit for purpose, not a sports stadium. How many events may an uncovered sports stadium hold each year? Not many, they're not designed for set up, logistics et al. Two perhaps 3 large events = peanuts. Contrast  bespoke arena that may flip events daily. That's why at Spurs they designed an innovative 2 sports stadium, it cost a fortune so to do but at least it allows them extra income but that's from an additional sport, not entertainment.

If you inherit a sports stadium and wish to better utilise it, start by knocking it down. There is no repurposing. Look at the nugatory space in concourses, projections et al. At most grounds the acoustics are so crap one can't hear the stadium announcements, let alone host a concert. Latest generation NFL stadiums are designed, under cover, to host other events, outdoor MLB stadia host very little other than baseball.

AG without football or rugby would be a white elephant.

 

Edited by BTRFTG
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...