Derby County

[REDOXO]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh yeah and the sanctions are bigger this time...I'd be surprised if the EFL are not keeping powder dry.

Villa, some of their fans going on about ESL and how fans shouldn't be punished for ownership...those ones don't have a clue that's all I'll say.

I’m not sure of how far back the EFL will can go once they are inside the books but quite apart from Wycombe becoming a creditor, PNE and Middlesbrough will be looking closely as they would have been in the play offs in a couple of seasons. The manual manipulator at Derby admitting they earned a four point deduction for earlier seasons makes me furious. 
 

Edit. I see from Pops post borough have started proceedings!   Ffs Derby supporters

Edited September 22, 2021 by REDOXO

[WarksRobin]

5 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Prior to the -12 they were on 10 points from 8 games. 1.25 ppg. Keep that up and they would get another 47.5 points from the remaining 38 games (lets be generous and round that up to 48). Sees them finish on 46, and likely relegated. As you say, a further -9 and they're done.

They need to improve their early form if they are to survive. 

It depends whether these events create a siege mentality and the team starts playing better or it undermines confidence and it all falls apart. Character, do they have enough?

[ExiledAjax]

3 minutes ago, WarksRobin said:

It depends whether these events create a siege mentality and the team starts playing better or it undermines confidence and it all falls apart. Character, do they have enough?

Perhaps. I'd be betting they don't have enough.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not sure of how far back the EFL will can go once they are inside the books but quite apart from Wycombe becoming a creditor, PNE and Middlesbrough will be looking closely as they would have been in the play offs in a couple of seasons. The manual manipulator at Derby admitting they earned a four point deduction for earlier seasons makes me furious. 
 

Edit. I see from Pops post borough have started proceedings!   Ffs Derby supporters

Do you mean Villa or Derby? Preston covers 2017/18, they lost out as the overspending once restated covered that season, 2018/19 would likely have failed P&S/FFP or seen transfer restrictions hence Middlesbrough were disadvantaged to Derby.

Still though, the misconception/falsehood about Gibson selling tax losses. Oh he did but that does not benefit a club FFP wise! If it was a tax credit then it's Profit or Loss before tax and if it was corporation tax on profit, again it's before that. It's a falsehood that has been out there since May 2019, put out there by Derby's owner and it's just not that true.

Even if it was as well, the EFL couldn't have blocked promotion in 2015/16- merely a fine or a January embargo if up or staying down respectively.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Villa, some of their fans going on about ESL and how fans shouldn't be punished for ownership...those ones don't have a clue that's all I'll say.

Fans have a share of responsibility if they keep demanding their club spends money it doesn't have. Some of our own fall into that category.

More so Derby fans who cheered Morris on as he drove their club over a cliff.

[REDOXO]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Do you mean Villa or Derby? Preston covers 2017/18, they lost out as the overspending once restated covered that season, 2018/19 would likely have failed P&S/FFP or seen transfer restrictions hence Middlesbrough were disadvantaged to Derby.

Still though, the misconception/falsehood about Gibson selling tax losses. Oh he did but that does not benefit a club FFP wise! If it was a tax credit then it's Profit or Loss before tax and if it was corporation tax on profit, again it's before that. It's a falsehood that has been out there since May 2019, put out there by Derby's owner and it's just not that true.

Even if it was as well, the EFL couldn't have blocked promotion in 2015/16- merely a fine or a January embargo if up or staying down respectively.

I think we are starting with Boro. Again there is no protection from the corporate veil now.  Even approved accounts will be trawled through. Watch this space. Keep in mind there is prize money for league places too. 
 

FYI As I was having my rant you posted about Boro doing what I thought. Bet Gibson is on his hotline to Lansdown giving it loads as we speak. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by REDOXO

[BTRFTG]

One thing it would be interesting to know is whether the sell and splitting of the ground, which clearly helped Derby's FFP hole, might also have been a requirement by MSD for their loan and potential takeover?

Seems to me if a struggling club has freehold (not ground) sought by others then it could be worth a punt by any asset-stripper to keep them afloat via a loan secured against a discretely secured holding. Few years down the line and with the link severely weakened between club and prime asset, that asset suddenly becomes a potential weakness. Sod the club and force their hand.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The ground thing, some Derby fans are saying that Mel Morris owes them £81.1m for the ground- this can't be true surely?

You never know @BTRFTG but the MSD loans came in 2020.

FWIW, excitement aside I'm not sure how Middlesbrough have much of a case, given EFL regs with arbitration, all clubs agree to arbitrate etc- can arbitration award punitive damages or not?

Edited September 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Cidre Monita]

Mel Morris is fully to blame for this. He went on a wild spending spree hoping to get to the Prem , but forgot to pay his bills. He may have spent 200M , but the debts are such you have to doubt he has actually spent it in cash terms. Does the ground get included in the administration process ? I doubt. He had the money to get Derby through to a buyer , but has chosen to let them possibly die. Derby fans should be spitting about that man. FFP fair play is one thing, but when someone knowingly piles up debt with no desire to pay it back, it is fraudulent. He owes HMRC £20 m . He allowed that to happen, yet he will still have his £300/400m safe at home. There is no gun to the head of anyone in football to pay wages to players they cannot afford. Owners do it , and they keep doing it, and keep paying players more than the business can afford. The banks, HMRC, accountants and the EFL need a long hard look at themselves, because this sort of nonsense is not happening over night. How the lot of them escape any fraud charges is beyond me. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Cidre Monita

[Bristol Rob]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Fans have a share of responsibility if they keep demanding their club spends money it doesn't have. Some of our own fall into that category.

More so Derby fans who cheered Morris on as he drove their club over a cliff.

Don't agree with that.

Of course fans demand/ask that the club buy/spend, but generally speaking, the person signing the cheques has made their money by knowing where to invest, when to invest and when to say no.

They are in a position of leadership because of their ability to lead, and if they yielded to every request they'd be broke in no time.

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The ground thing, some Derby fans are saying that Mel Morris owes them £81.1m for the ground- this can't be true surely?

You never know @BTRFTG but the MSD loans came in 2020.

But recall Morris had been seeking a purchaser for years and such deals take years to reach fruition. Bit like saying I'll buy your house but not until you've replaced the roof. Maybe not here, but I wonder if MSD had been positioning Morris to structure the club toward something they'd be prepared to purchase, hedging their bets either way should Derby reach the Premier or not.

Stranger things have happened in business.

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I'd be in the pub really early on my birthday…

And I wouldn’t be checking my phone whilst supposedly celebrating my dad’s 80th.

[1960maaan]

Mel Morris is a dodgy one, luckily all other owners have gone through a thorough "fit and proper persons test. Which, ironically isn't fit for purpose.

So in todays, here that sounds a bit dodgy news. I give you Fleetwood.

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Don't agree with that.

Of course fans demand/ask that the club buy/spend, but generally speaking, the person signing the cheques has made their money by knowing where to invest, when to invest and when to say no.

They are in a position of leadership because of their ability to lead, and if they yielded to every request they'd be broke in no time.

The thing is though, Derby fans weren't just doing that.

They were actively cheering, revelling in not only the spending but the loopholes used to pursue them.

"EFL on strings"- they were actively gloating and revelling in the 'wisdom' of their leader and his pursuit of the loopholes. Mocking those who questioned, "We're so smart" kinda thing, laughing at the fact that they were seemingly running rings round the EFL etc.

Okay there are bits of poetic license but I think I sum it up well.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

10 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Don't agree with that.

Of course fans demand/ask that the club buy/spend, but generally speaking, the person signing the cheques has made their money by knowing where to invest, when to invest and when to say no.

They are in a position of leadership because of their ability to lead, and if they yielded to every request they'd be broke in no time.

We'll have to agree to disagree perhaps. The modern history of the game is littered with successful businessmen who abandon their business principles once they own a football club. So they cannot always be trusted as custodians.

Steve himself has been guilty of that at times. Most recently he talked about sustainability then allowed Ashton to increase the wage bill to unsustainable levels. Nigel is now having to fix that.

I would argue that the first thing fans should care about is the long term survival of their club. That includes not encouraging owners to overspend to please the fans in pursuit of that dreadful phrase "chasing the dream". Which is what happened with Derby.

Still, come January we will no doubt see some fans on here demanding Steve spend money and in some cases claiming that he uses P&S as an excuse for not doing so. Happily they seem to be in a minority though.

[BanburyRed]

So Derby docked 12pts, 1pt more than they achieved in their 2007/2008 PL season....

[Cidre Monita]

As a caution, we also like to feel and for god reason that SL keeps us going. Just imagine what would happen f one day he just said "enough". We would be in exactly the same position. We do not own the ground as a football club, and our debts are huge and our cash flow such we would melt down in weeks. Football is a broken system, there is so much money in the game, yet the businesses are allowed to be run with the most incredible accounting results and manipulation. There is more than enough money generated in the game for it to function in a very sustainable manner, yet clubs continue to over pay wages in the search for success.  The guarantees for the debts and loans look to be written in the sand. Owners build up debts knowing the business is ring fenced and they can walk away. The Championship is the most idiotic set up of any sport, where some competitors are paid vast sums for failure. Getting rid of parachute payments should start to bring some wage sanity. Then some. But even our club, what on earth were we doing with a  £30m plus wage bll . Madness. 

[AnAstonVillafan]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

They will be relegated one day! Just like QPR

Don't judge a whole a club or its fanbase by a couple of people on a forum.

I'll remind you once again that Aston Villa did nothing wrong. As declared after two separate investigations. The club is going from strength to strength right now, on and off the field. Long may that continue.

I did say on here long ago that Derby will get what's coming to them. But I can take no pleasure from their current demise. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Don't judge a whole a club or its fanbase by a couple of people on a forum.

I'll remind you once again that Aston Villa did nothing wrong. As declared after two separate investigations. The club is going from strength to strength right now, on and off the field. Long may that continue.

I did say on here long ago that Derby will get what's coming to them. But I can take no pleasure from their current demise. 

Fair enough.

Erm, I have to wonder as I said on the Villa thread about certain bits of the accounting treatment in fairness. Thinking the current asset bit, convertible within 12 months etc yet it remained within a year.

When Derby are docked pts for FFP then that will certainly be getting what is coming to them. That is still dragging interminably and tbh not submitting accounts to CH should be some kind of points deduction in itself- that's 2 years and longer that they haven't- their fans still seem quite bullish despite everything all things considered.

[chinapig]

4 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

I'll remind you once again that Aston Villa did nothing wrong

Essentially true imo. The problem was clubs being enable to comply with P&S by "selling" their stadium thanks to a loophole. I suspect they were positively encouraged to do so by a former head of the EFL.

The gamble paid off in Villa's case but in Derby's case could yet be a factor in their being liquidated.

[AnAstonVillafan]

10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Essentially true imo. The problem was clubs being enable to comply with P&S by "selling" their stadium thanks to a loophole. I suspect they were positively encouraged to do so by a former head of the EFL.

The gamble paid off in Villa's case but in Derby's case could yet be a factor in their being liquidated.

I'm well aware that their situation could easily have been us had we not attracted the owners we have now.

It was a gamble and not in the spirit of the regulations I'll admit. But it saved us.

Unless the gap between the top two divisions is narrowed somehow, these issues will keep coming up. And more clubs will go to the wall. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by AnAstonVillafan

[Monkeh]

In villas defense, they've never been under suspicion or charged by the efl

As much as we don't like it you have to stick to innocent until proven guilty,

 

[BTRFTG]

39 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

We do not own the ground as a football club, and our debts are huge and our cash flow such we would melt down in weeks.

And therein lies the problem with fans. We emotionally support a club and indulge using terms such as 'us', 'ours', 'we', save it isn't ours and never will be. It's not our debt, it's not our money, not our club,  it's SL's. In his case it makes sod all difference whether or not the club owns the ground, he owns the whole shebang, on his own, outright. And that's why muppets who criticise for him not investing further in stupid purchases are nothing but deluded. They think they have a 'right' to dictate the club's future, they think they should have a say, yet don't have the wherewithal to make a difference.

Just be thankful we've a benefactor with deep pockets who, for now, is happy to indulge us in our hobby. Shame those ingrates who anonymously berate him on social media don't realise they're the ones making it more likely he'll one day decide he's had enough.

Don't bite the hand that feeds.

[Mr Popodopolous]

22 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

I'm well aware that their situation could easily have been us had we not attracted the owners we have now.

It was a gamble and not in the spirit of the regulations I'll admit. But it saved us.

Unless the gap between the top two divisions is narrowed somehow, these issues will keep coming up. And more clubs will go to the wall. 

The FFP bit not insolvency could well have posed issues without promotion in that specific season 

The EFL also have something to answer in a load of these cases. T + 1 and T + 2, once the lower threshold is exceeded- so thinking 2017/18, then with Villa and lots of other clubs, the power is there for T + 1 and T + 2, and how they'll comply..and budgetary 'guidance' can be implemented, the EFL in 2018 dropped the ball quite badly.

In layman's terms, loanees or not the EFL could have imposed measures with an eye on the following two seasons if losses fell between £15-39m. I can't remember the exact requirements but there were  lots of clubs who fell into that category and AVFC were one.

Probably less expensive loanees new owners or not basically.

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Don't judge a whole a club or its fanbase by a couple of people on a forum.

I'll remind you once again that Aston Villa did nothing wrong. As declared after two separate investigations. The club is going from strength to strength right now, on and off the field. Long may that continue.

I did say on here long ago that Derby will get what's coming to them. But I can take no pleasure from their current demise. 

I try not too. 
 

However as has been said many times forums do tend to be a decent cross section. 
 

As for Villa, who knows what will happen unless they get relegated and the four years of we dun nuffin wrong gov out of Derbyshire will ensure that everything gets looked at in that light. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I try not too. 
 

However as has been said many times forums do tend to be a decent cross section. 
 

As for Villa, who knows what will happen unless they get relegated and the four years of we dun nuffin wrong gov out of Derbyshire will ensure that everything gets looked at in that light. 

Good points, all of them.

The EFL do reserve the right to go back and look at anything, there's nothing in the regulations to prevent it as such.

In a sense, the more they pursue and charge for wrongdoing past and present, the less choice they have in pursuit of others. It makes a bit of a rod for their own back and I believe that the stadium loophole is one that the EFL will have been especially furious about.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The latest idea I've seen on Twitter is.

Mel Morris gives back the Stadium to Derby for £1 or a nominal fee and then they mortgage it for £50m.

Will Mel pay the cash to MSD as well, can the club sub-mortgage it just like that.

How do the club defend the £81.1m transaction- £1 in an FFP context? Surely the EFL would have something to say about that.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[REDOXO]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The latest idea I've seen on Twitter is.

Mel Morris gives back the Stadium to Derby for £1 or a nominal fee and then they mortgage it for £50m.

Will he pay the cash to MSD as well, can the club sub-mortgate it just like that. How do the club defend the £81.1m transaction -  £1 in an FFP context?

I would get your head down Pop. The scenarios are endless!

The idea of a transaction even for a pound happening prior to the administrator extracting the maximum for them selves/doing their due diligence is laughable. This could be over without cash and a willing buyer in days! Who the hell wants a club and stadium if the new variants start rearing up!

[Bristol Rob]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The latest idea I've seen on Twitter is.

Mel Morris gives back the Stadium to Derby for £1 or a nominal fee and then they mortgage it for £50m.

Will Mel pay the cash to MSD as well, can the club sub-mortgage it just like that.

How do the club defend the £81.1m transaction- £1 in an FFP context? Surely the EFL would have something to say about that.

Wouldn't the club then get hammered by HMRC for avoiding stamp duty? Likewise, with property/land values on the rise, Mel would struggle to get less than his purchase price if he did, he would be avoiding capital gains tax.... unless the valuation of the stadium was absolutely bobbins.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The latest idea I've seen on Twitter is.

Mel Morris gives back the Stadium to Derby for £1 or a nominal fee and then they mortgage it for £50m.

Will Mel pay the cash to MSD as well, can the club sub-mortgage it just like that.

How do the club defend the £81.1m transaction- £1 in an FFP context? Surely the EFL would have something to say about that.

Derby fans: