Derby County

[REDOXO]

4 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

That's P&S, not related to administration or cash flow

It's you who doesn't get it. A club's revenue isn't volitile... it's not going to go from £30m to £10m, then up to £40m in successive seasons in the Championship. In 17/18 revenue was just under £30m. Roughly £15m of that was from match receipts and commercial/hospitality activities (which would have been £0 (or certainly very close to) in 20/21. 
In 17/18, we reached the Play-off semis and early rounds of the cups (Man Utd away in FA Cup). 18/19, it was the Playoff Final and cup games away to Man utd, Chelsea, Southampton and Brighton (I think all 4 of those were on TV?). Match receipts would have been down in 19/20 (no Playoffs or cup run), but sponsorship thanks to Rooney would have offset that slightly. 20/21 would have been similar to 19/20, but for a full year of Rooney sponsorship. For simplicity, it's reasonable to just assume £30m revenue for all seasons, minus the Covid impact on match receipts and commercial/hospitality activities... c50% of revenue.

It's not about what we spent prior to Covid. It's about whether the numbers stack up to say we would not have been in administration if it wasn't for Covid - in our case, was the business going to be self-sustainable from the 22/23 season onwards.

I'm not looking for sympathy at all. I'm simply putting forward a potential viewpoint that some on here instantly choose to dismiss without actually looking at it in detail.

The devil is always in the detail. I suspect more will be revealed when the back accounts are at the EFL. IF I am following correctly, The board Of Derby have agreed the accounts pre Covid were not in order and there may well be another four point deduction looming. Or am I wrong about that?

[Hxj]

38 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I've never encountered a freeholder who'd be interested in that type of deal

At the time all the entities were under common ownership and most of the rights and benefits of occupation sat in the club due to the lease.  It's not at all uncommon in groups of companies.

[downendcity]

Just read this on Derby’s fans forum.

No i am not on anti Morris crusade. The Covid loan wasn't to save clubs from Covid it was to specifically help clubs meet PAYE liabilities and clubs that didn’t meet the criteria wouldn't be able to receive the loan.We appeared to owe HMRC before Covid appeared on the scene so why should the EFL help to clear debt that had already been accrued,that's how other clubs would have looked at it.Other clubs ensured PAYE had been up to date with liabilities to HMRC otherwise they wouldn't have got it.

 

 

Did I read somewhere that Derby owes HMRC something in the region of £25m? If so, and if this ( or a large part of it) accrued prior to the pandemic, then it would seem to indicate that serious financial issues were already affecting the club well before Covid came along

I’ve mentioned before that issues like the sale of Pride Park and the accounting methodology seem to have been regarded by many Derby fans as clever ruses to get one over the EFL and to show how clever MM was in beating the unfair ffp system. 

 

[downendcity]

10 hours ago, downendcity said:

Just read this on Derby’s fans forum.

No i am not on anti Morris crusade. The Covid loan wasn't to save clubs from Covid it was to specifically help clubs meet PAYE liabilities and clubs that didn’t meet the criteria wouldn't be able to receive the loan.We appeared to owe HMRC before Covid appeared on the scene so why should the EFL help to clear debt that had already been accrued,that's how other clubs would have looked at it.Other clubs ensured PAYE had been up to date with liabilities to HMRC otherwise they wouldn't have got it.

 

 

Did I read somewhere that Derby owes HMRC something in the region of £25m? If so, and if this ( or a large part of it) accrued prior to the pandemic, then it would seem to indicate that serious financial issues were already affecting the club well before Covid came along

I’ve mentioned before that issues like the sale of Pride Park and the accounting methodology seem to have been regarded by many Derby fans as clever ruses to get one over the EFL and to show how clever MM was in beating the unfair ffp system. 

 

I meant to add at the end:

In reality the ducking and diving over ffp should have been a warning sign as to the club’s true financial position.

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Weren't Reading at 226% of income on wages very recently? @Davefevswould know more. I think we were over 100% as well. I would imagine many Championship clubs are TBH.

Think Trevor Birch said the other day that the average exceeded 100% of turnover. Wages alone which makes for a basketcase of a League in a sense. 

We are one of the less bad but still exceeded 100% as of most recent accounts.

He was quoting reports from Deloitte which is fine but you'd hope the EFL as the Governing body would have a better grasp with the info available to them!? Maybe it was EFL commissioned research but if not....

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 hours ago, Hxj said:

On the vexed issue of Force Majeure and any appeal on the -12 points:

Derby will have to:

1. Within 7 days of receipt of the formal notice - appeal and provide all the documents they intend to rely on.

2. Pay the EFL £5,000.

3. Agree and pay for an independent accountant's report that will review the circumstances before and leading up to the Administration and report on the causes of the Administration.

4. Prove on a balance of probabilities that that there was a single event causing the Administration.

If for instance the club still hasn't been paid for the ground they are stuffed before the process starts.

Thanks for clearing up the process. Point 1, when you say receipt of the formal notice do you mean the notice of the points deduction, ie Tuesday or do you mean formal notice to file, ie last Friday?

If it's the former their window may well have expired.

Would think that the overriding objectives of the League, image etc could supersede Derby's claims, as one successful force majeure and it could set a precedent.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a side note, I have to say that some on DCFCFans do their club little credit. Or few favours.

Now forums are forums and it's not like they carry much sway but it seems to me that Derby need to rebuild bridges not only with the EFL but start to with other clubs too. Mel leaving will have helped.

The thing about DCFCFans however, is how independent from the club is it? I noticed eg that there are club advertisements that might help to fund it.

Sure that Gibson and the EFL would be quite interested at some of the comments that appear on there. How arms length from the club is it. The forum operator also appeared to be one of Mel's favoured guests for behind closed doors fan briefing.

Their statement going into administration didn't help, EFL took a part of that badly and Rooney reportedly intimated that he would consider throwing youth products in if a further deduction ie the mooted one for FFP arose. Made reference to the integrity of the competition.

As a club they need to watch their step tbh. I'm sure the administrators will take a pragmatic approach fwiw but a shitload of goodwill has been burnt through by Mel and no small number of gloating fans since 2019

[Hxj]

38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

when you say receipt of the formal notice do you mean the notice of the points deduction, ie Tuesday or do you mean formal notice to file, ie last Friday?

Notice of the points deduction.

[Davefevs]

From Matt Slater - Athletic

Every day is a school day for Derby County supporters at the moment and Thursday’s curriculum included lessons on teaser documents, preferential creditors and manager Wayne Rooney’s favourite Only Fools and Horses scene with Terrence Aubrey “Boycie” Boyce.

The latter revelation came 10 minutes into the third big Derby-related interview of the day: Rooney’s pre-Saturday chat with the local press.

Given recent events, there was a lot more to talk about than groin strains but the 35-year-old cannot have been expecting a request for a tribute to the actor who played Boycie, John Challis, who died last week. Like so much else that has been thrown his way of late, Rooney handled it beautifully.

“First of all, condolences to his family — it’s very sad news,” he said. “I was actually watching Only Fools and Horses last night, being honest, so, yeah, there are a lot of moments in there. I think when (Boycie’s wife) Marlene got breast implants and Del Boy wound Boycie up, was one of the best moments for me.”

Sad news, boobs, wind-ups… it has been that kind of week at Pride Park.

Earlier on Thursday, insolvency experts Andrew Hosking and Carl Jackson held their first press conference since being appointed as joint administrators of the cash-strapped club.

To their credit, they answered a lot of questions and they explained how they were appointed, what the next two weeks look like, and how fans can still help the club.

They admitted that Derby’s debts were substantial but said those IOUs were now frozen by the administration process, and that any new owner could negotiate a significant “discount” on them, a change in circumstances that immediately makes the club more attractive to potential buyers. This, they claimed, is why half a dozen “serious and well-funded” parties have already expressed an interest in rescuing the business.

They also said they had already met representatives of the supporters’ trust, which, under English Football League rules, has 28 days to put a bid together for the club, and had told Rooney and his players that they had no intention to start ripping up their contracts or flogging them off in a clearance sale.

There were a few references to “inevitable bumps in the road” and the need to cut costs but, overall, the message was confident and upbeat.

In fact, when pushed for an answer on how confident they were that Derby County could be saved, Hosking said: “Contrary to a podcast I heard this week, I don’t consider this to be another Bury.

“Barristers never offer better chances than 60 to 70 per cent in any case but I think there is a 95 per cent chance this will be restructured. Look, I’m confident.”

Jackson, who looked a little uncomfortable as Hosking chose not to duck that bouncer, added: “I wasn’t sure if Andrew would put a number on it but, yes, I’ll back that.”

Derby, courtesy of being deducted 12 points, are bottom of the Championship (Photo: Bradley Collyer/PA Images via Getty Images)

In terms of saying what fans, players and staff wanted to hear this week, Hosking and Jackson ticked every box.

Money to pay next week’s wage bill? Check. No fire sale? Yep. Commitment to fulfil the fixtures? Absolutely. People still want to buy us? Sure.

The press conference, however, had a different impact on the rest of the football industry.

When The Athletic contacted EFL club bosses, insolvency experts and potential investors on Thursday for their thoughts on the Derby administration’s bold beginning, the responses ranged from “good luck” to “good grief”.

The reasons for this are fairly simple. One, Derby’s debts are massive and a huge slice of what they owe is either secured against the property assets or has preferential status in law — getting the owners of these debts to accept pennies in the pound will not be nearly as straightforward as Hosking and Jackson implied.

Two, the administrators claimed they can more than half the club’s running costs now that it no longer has to meet the obligations of any payment plan it has set up with creditors. That bit is true but nobody believes a moratorium on the debts is going to slice “more than 50 per cent” from the club’s monthly costs. The only way to do that is to let people go.

The administrators have two weeks to decide who they absolutely cannot do without to put the games on or they will assume all of the club’s contracts. There is some very bad news coming down the road and it will feel like more than a “few bumps” for those on the wrong end of it.

Three, nobody is looking to buy Derby County now who was not looking at them last week. The price was too high then, not to mention the future liabilities and uncertainty over which division Derby will be in next season (or the one after that), and it is unclear how much has changed.

And four, the administrators admitted, almost breezily, that they need another loan to fund the club until January, which is the shortest possible window to achieve a sale this complicated.

Just let that settle in for a moment.

Mel Morris, the former owner, has just decided enough is enough after injecting over £200 million into Derby since 2014. The club owes almost £30 million to the tax man, £20 million to a US investment firm, £10 million to other clubs, former staff and other individuals who come under the “football creditors” bracket, who must be paid in full, and a similar sum to the usual cast of hundreds who have provided food, office supplies or their time to the club.

And even after drastic cuts to the playing budget over the last 18 months, the club is still losing about £15 million a year.

But the administrators say they are currently in talks with four different lenders about “short-term funding”. How and when this loan will be repaid, or what interest this lender will charge, was not explained.

Later on Thursday, EFL chief executive Trevor Birch, an accountant by trade who has done a few football administrations himself, was asked if this was a bit unusual.

“I haven’t used it in a football insolvency but I believe there may be lenders willing to do it if they get super-priority,” he said.

We asked another insolvency expert the same question and he was less diplomatic: “It’s unheard of. They must be mad.”

To be fair to Jackson, he did admit “we don’t have much choice”.

Birch, however, was also asked about the administrators’ belief that HM Revenue and Customs will just have to accept whatever pennies-in-the-pound offer Hosking, Jackson and their fellow joint-administrator Andrew Andronikou can come up with.

“I share your scepticism that it will be a simple situation with HMRC,” said Birch.

“It’s the first administration since 2002 where they’ve had preferential status. It will be interesting to see how they vote in any (Company Voluntary Arrangement) or alternative exit route.”

This is a reference to the fact that the UK government last year restored HMRC’s status as a preferential creditor in insolvencies, which means administrators can no longer discriminate against the taxman when the final divvying up of the assets takes place. If Arsenal are going to get paid in full for the money Derby owe them, so is the crown.

Nobody is suggesting these are easy issues to communicate and several sources have pointed out that all football administrations look awful to begin with but usually end up with a positive result.

It is also important to note that the administrators, Birch and Rooney all said they would do all in their power to save this club, which was a founding member of the Football League in 1888 and a member of the Premier League as recently as 2008.

But misplaced confidence, risk-taking and attempts to hide bad numbers are all causes of Derby’s current predicament.

The only way the club survives this crisis is if it is honest with itself, its fans, its creditors and its potential saviours. Otherwise, only a fool or somebody horsing about will even look at them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

That's an illuminating article, thanks for posting Dave.

Reading that, I posted snippets of the press conference the other week and tbh the administration team did seem somewhat bullish.

Couple of bits. IIRC the bit bumped up (as per Govt site) for HMRC as preferential is employee NI, VAT and PAYE. There are some other categories but those feel the most relevant in cases like this- the rest of the HMRC debt owing would be secondary preferential.

The other bit is a claim I've periodically seen elsewhere that their wage bill is £15m, £12m and perhaps even as low as £10m.

I struggle to see how personally.

a) Club in isolation

b) Consolidated

c) Just the football staff

d) Just the players

e) Inclusive of NI, PAYE?

No doubt it's dropped but the running costs were huge in 2017/18. That's as in Revenue -  Operating Costs.

It's a large organisation but the Sevco 5112 IIRC had an operating loss of £45-46m. Has this really been slashed so far in 3 years, 4 at a push!

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's an illuminating article, thanks for posting Dave.

Reading that, I posted snippets of the press conference the other week and tbh the administration team did seem somewhat bullish.

Couple of bits. IIRC the bit bumped up (as per Govt site) for HMRC as preferential is employee NI, VAT and PAYE. There are some other categories but those feel the most relevant in cases like this- the rest of the HMRC debt owing would be secondary preferential.

The other bit is a claim I've periodically seen elsewhere that their wage bill is £15m, £12m and perhaps even as low as £10m.

I struggle to see how personally.

a) Club in isolation

b) Consolidated

c) Just the football staff

d) Just the players

e) Inclusive of NI, PAYE?

No doubt it's dropped but the running costs were huge in 2017/18. That's as in Revenue -  Operating Costs.

It's a large organisation but the Sevco 5112 IIRC had an operating loss of £45-46m. Has this really been slashed so far in 3 years, 4 at a push!

I genuinely think that is “people” misinterpreting when MM says he has covered the losses / wages with £1.2-1.5m per month.  I think they are forgetting there are some revenues also helping to cover the bills too.

[Hxj]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

genuinely think that is “people” misinterpreting when MM says he has covered the losses / wages with £1.2-1.5m per month.  I think they are forgetting there are some revenues also helping to cover the bills too.

Plus it is becoming increasingly obvious that he was only covering the cash that had to be paid out, so no PAYE/NIC for instance as that didn't have to be paid as HMRC were not going to wind the company up during the pandemic.  So with a footballer on £1 million a year the take home pay is about £550,000 a year, that would be the cash cost covered by Morris.  The actual cost to the business would be a further £590,000 in PAYE and NIC that he hadn't met.

The figures escalate significantly as for example amortisation of transfer fees and related costs are a non-cash cost as well.

[Cidre Monita]

I find it astonishing that 30 years ago Swindon were demoted 2 divisions for financial fraud. The accountants have got better, but it is quite clear Morris has played every financial trick in the book without troubling in any great way his own financial well being. He has defrauded the country (the NHS , schools, well everything) by not paying the tax bills. He has still a few hundred million. Swindon were battered, Rangers too, yet how are we talking this nonsense with Derby when it is clear the perpetrators knew what they were doing and sought to mislead and ultimately defraud the country and others. This was no accident, it was a manipulation, and took artistic accounting to the limits. Morris should be facing criminal charges. and prison Derby should be in League 2. Football and the authorities need to get a grip. Before anyone gets agitated, recall, and this is a fact, there is no gun pointed at any club to pay one single player more than they can afford. I include our club in this. Our wages are a nonsense too. SL has to pay out 20m plus each season. That is madness. Most football clubs are on a normal evaluation insolvent . It is all self inflicted and it only because players are paid too much money. Billions in revenue but clubs are bankrupt. It is BS of the highest order. From the top, look at Barcelona . Do not blame the EFL, UEFA etc, this is in the hands of accountants and banks. If any of us ran a business this way we would have been wound up ages ago. 

Football is a disgrace. So much wealth and it cannot manage to keep any semblance of ethics and responsibility. 

We are no better , look at our wage bill. We rely on SL writing a huge cheque to remain solvent, as if it is normal. It is not. Fotball need reform, Prem league needs reform, parachute payments for failure is astonishing ( just give players a 75 % drop in wages on relegation- if that is all that clubs offer they will still sign) . 

To quote a very good friend of mine. Rather famous and very rich. When responding to a call from the owner of a sporting team who had spent 2 Billion and won nothing. " My friend, if all you wanted to do was come last I could have saved you 1.8 Billion" 

Sorry Derby, you have one man to blame. Morris has destroyed you, and you deserve to pay the huge price. You will come back, but at least show some recognition that Morris has conned all of you and defrauded many. 

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

Plus it is becoming increasingly obvious that he was only covering the cash that had to be paid out, so no PAYE/NIC for instance as that didn't have to be paid as HMRC were not going to wind the company up during the pandemic.  So with a footballer on £1 million a year the take home pay is about £550,000 a year, that would be the cash cost covered by Morris.  The actual cost to the business would be a further £590,000 in PAYE and NIC that he hadn't met.

The figures escalate significantly as for example amortisation of transfer fees and related costs are a non-cash cost as well.

That is definitely much clearer….thanks.

And also why HMRC is so high.

So disingenuous to say wages down, when you’re not paying HMRC…..who would ever guess Melly Mel would try to dupe everyone with a hard luck story.  He has certainly confirmed he isn’t an accountant, but someone who wants to try every little way to bend the rules.  His Accountants and Auditors reputations must have taken a hit too?

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Psychopomp said:

I find it astonishing that 30 years ago Swindon were demoted 2 divisions for financial fraud. The accountants have got better, but it is quite clear Morris has played every financial trick in the book without troubling in any great way his own financial well being. He has defrauded the country (the NHS , schools, well everything) by not paying the tax bills. He has still a few hundred million. Swindon were battered, Rangers too, yet how are we talking this nonsense with Derby when it is clear the perpetrators knew what they were doing and sought to mislead and ultimately defraud the country and others. This was no accident, it was a manipulation, and took artistic accounting to the limits. Morris should be facing criminal charges. and prison Derby should be in League 2. Football and the authorities need to get a grip. Before anyone gets agitated, recall, and this is a fact, there is no gun pointed at any club to pay one single player more than they can afford. I include our club in this. Our wages are a nonsense too. SL has to pay out 20m plus each season. That is madness. Most football clubs are on a normal evaluation insolvent . It is all self inflicted and it only because players are paid too much money. Billions in revenue but clubs are bankrupt. It is BS of the highest order. From the top, look at Barcelona . Do not blame the EFL, UEFA etc, this is in the hands of accountants and banks. If any of us ran a business this way we would have been wound up ages ago. 

Football is a disgrace. So much wealth and it cannot manage to keep any semblance of ethics and responsibility. 

We are no better , look at our wage bill. We rely on SL writing a huge cheque to remain solvent, as if it is normal. It is not. Fotball need reform, Prem league needs reform, parachute payments for failure is astonishing ( just give players a 75 % drop in wages on relegation- if that is all that clubs offer they will still sign) . 

To quote a very good friend of mine. Rather famous and very rich. When responding to a call from the owner of a sporting team who had spent 2 Billion and won nothing. " My friend, if all you wanted to do was come last I could have saved you 1.8 Billion" 

Sorry Derby, you have one man to blame. Morris has destroyed you, and you deserve to pay the huge price. You will come back, but at least show some recognition that Morris has conned all of you and defrauded many. 

 

I do agree with you on SL and his check writing. However he appointed the guys that made the purchases backed them to the hilt and Signed off on the contracts. 
 

Mr Lansdown is well aware of his culpability in the over spending, but he also stands up and takes responsibility! Which is where the difference lay between the two gentlemen. It also helps that SL is massively more wealthy and is handicapped with a fraction of the hubris of MM. 

TO your general point, MM has put Derby here and as such I have little sympathy with anyone and football spending is insane. Truth be told we were lucky to have so many out of contract in June. The natural attrition was a bit of a god send financially 

[supercidered]

Quite refreshing to come back on to this thread and not having a bleating Derby fan going on about appeals and other little sh!t ideas to weasel out of this.

I'm waiting to hear the next instalment of punishment. Another 9 points deduction please. Off you little trot to League 1 and hopefully beyond.

[Cidre Monita]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That is definitely much clearer….thanks.

And also why HMRC is so high.

So disingenuous to say wages down, when you’re not paying HMRC…..who would ever guess Melly Mel would try to dupe everyone with a hard luck story.  He has certainly confirmed he isn’t an accountant, but someone who wants to try every little way to bend the rules.  His Accountants and Auditors reputations must have taken a hit too?

Morris knew exactly what he was doing. The man is a fraudster and con artist .  He deserves jail but will leave Derby in tatters and run away on his 300/400 million. 

[Cidre Monita]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

I do agree with you on SL and his check writing. However he appointed the guys that made the purchases backed them to the hilt and Signed off on the contracts. 
 

Mr Lansdown is well aware of his culpability in the over spending, but he also stands up and takes responsibility! Which is where the difference lay between the two gentlemen. It also helps that SL is massively more wealthy and is handicapped with a fraction of the hubris of MM. 

TO your general point, MM has put Derby here and as such I have little sympathy with anyone and football spending is insane. Truth be told we were lucky to have so many out of contract in June. The natural attrition was a bit of a god send financially 

Totally agree . It needs for example SL and Gibson to sort this nonsense and they have been involved . Scrap parachute payments and get wages in line with income . It is not rocket science. Clubs are paying stupid wages to average players . Look at us. Palmer . Love him, hate him. Never achieved anything , not a first team starter anywhere, yet we pay him a million plus a year . He was a reserve player, a junior , never made it . Not personal  against Kasey , who is a lovely lad , but FFS. He should be on a fraction of that .  Look at our income . We can go in circles , but players are paid far too much. That is the issue alongside those that agree to pay them. The very best , hell give them a fortune, but not reserves , squad players and second tier players . That is bonkers . Wage deflation has to happen. Wage reduction on relegation needs to be huge. Parachute payments eliminated . Owners to get real. 

[REDOXO]

48 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

Totally agree . It needs for example SL and Gibson to sort this nonsense and they have been involved . Scrap parachute payments and get wages in line with income . It is not rocket science. Clubs are paying stupid wages to average players . Look at us. Palmer . Love him, hate him. Never achieved anything , not a first team starter anywhere, yet we pay him a million plus a year . He was a reserve player, a junior , never made it . Not personal  against Kasey , who is a lovely lad , but FFS. He should be on a fraction of that .  Look at our income . We can go in circles , but players are paid far too much. That is the issue alongside those that agree to pay them. The very best , hell give them a fortune, but not reserves , squad players and second tier players . That is bonkers . Wage deflation has to happen. Wage reduction on relegation needs to be huge. Parachute payments eliminated . Owners to get real. 

Gibbo and SL are tight as Chairman. (In the familiarity sense) Both former or current channel island tax exiles, with a sense of right and wrong and a sense of their hometown. 
 

Both have spoken out to be ignored by the wider football world, however an epidemic that no one two years ago saw coming has changed everything and made them seem like clairvoyants. 
 

Problem is that current contracts still stand. As Nathan Baker and Andy Weimann have found out new ones are much reduced. 
 

Wage deflation is here unless your in the top six. But it’s only a matter of time that Barcelona and Real Madrid are joined by a Spurs or an Arsenal. The hope of the Super League will not go away for those clubs!

[sh1t_ref_again]

Have very little sympathy for Derby, but do feel the route cause is down to how the Prem league clubs set up to protect themselves and try to ensure any team that may find themselves relegated with the riff-raff are able to keep better players and come bouncing back up. PP payments are just wrong, how can you give a massive advantage to certain teams in a competition, every season at least 2 teams go up with PP, leaving the poor relations to fight out for the remaining spot. 

With the prize being so big from promotion, it forces teams to overspend to complete for really the 1 promotion place, of course MM thought he could be clever and sidestep FFP and brought upon Derby the mess they are now in.

EFL commit clubs to FFP, but fair play could not be further from the truth when a prem club gets relegated and receives up to £90m over 3 years. 

Until the EFL and maybe fans find a backbone and fight back over this ridiculous practice and enforce pay cuts in to players contracts so they can meet the FFP of the division they are now in, Derby will not be the last

[Mr Popodopolous]

I've always said that Parachute Payments could be reformed as follows- but at least this is a starting point...

1. To relegated clubs in the profit and loss/counted towards FFP, only the amount equal to Championship solidarity payments.
2. I accept the cliff edge but why count it all as revenue ie through the P&L. Cashflow could be useful, helps a club to make the transition but inhibits them from spending on players.
3. This in turn encourages clubs not to gamble to excess in the PL and nudges them sharply and heavily- perhaps an EFL Business Plan would be required for pretty much all relegated clubs then- towards cutting clth from day one at this level.
4. Thereby helping both their solvency and the competitive balance of the League.
5. Could also be ringfenced to pay off or subsidise departures of higher earners, again helping both that clubs solvency and the League's competitive balance because they could spend a lot less on strengthening in Year 1 or 2.

I accept it is more nuanced in the sense that some clubs do use it as intended, but some clubs just use the headroom and gamble- whereas counting only an amount equal to Championship solidarity payments towards P&S would knock this on the head overnight basically. Solvency not extravagance should be the purpose of it.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I've always said that Parachute Payments could be reformed as follows- but at least this is a starting point...

1. To relegated clubs in the profit and loss/counted towards FFP, only the amount equal to Championship solidarity payments.
2. I accept the cliff edge but why count it all as revenue ie through the P&L. Cashflow could be useful, helps a club to make the transition but inhibits them from spending on players.
3. This in turn encourages clubs not to gamble to excess in the PL and nudges them sharply and heavily- perhaps an EFL Business Plan would be required for pretty much all relegated clubs then- towards cutting clth from day one at this level.
4. Thereby helping both their solvency and the competitive balance of the League.
5. Could also be ringfenced to pay off or subsidise departures of higher earners, again helping both that clubs solvency and the League's competitive balance because they could spend a lot less on strengthening in Year 1 or 2.

I accept it is more nuanced in the sense that some clubs do use it as intended, but some clubs just use the headroom and gamble- whereas counting only an amount equal to Championship solidarity payments towards P&S would knock this on the head overnight basically. Solvency not extravagance should be the purpose of it.

It’s why the concept of the salary cap had legs.  Basically a moratorium / cap on existing contracts to league average, new contracts to fall n line.

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s why the concept of the salary cap had legs.  Basically a moratorium / cap on existing contracts to league average, new contracts to fall n line.

Agreed. Could definitely have worked within the current system...

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seems that their administrators still trying to wangle the punishment down.

Clearly they can pick up discussions, but there is no real debate to be had. "You accept the -9, with 3 suspended and the business plan to finish this or you remain under the current embargo while it remains unresolved and if it remains unresolved then multiple periods go to multiple disciplinary commissions with the embargo in play for as long as it takes, and the 12 is a given for admin given no appeal in the correct timeframe". "No amnesty for administrators, no amnesty for new owners FFP wise". At least I hope the -12 is a given for admin.

Looks like we'll never see those accounts then or not for a while at best...question is will the EFL?? If not then there should be no lifting, possibly even no easing of the embargo until a final settlement materialises, a settlement along the lines of the EFL proposal.

Again, no resolution to the FFP/P&S=no end to the current professional standing embargo or the relevant embargo conditions whatever they may be. Should be made 100% clear to the club, the administrator and any prospective new owners. The EFL need to take no crap and give no quarter.

Thoughts @Hxj ? What leverage do Derby have here? It's a damn cheek that they are trying to negotiate it down, if within rights technically.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for Gellaw 202 and 204, it's hard to follow...

Gellaw Newco 202

2019

Other creditors and group undertakings?

Gellaw Newco 204

2019

The two match...! The debtors and the creditors appear to match for Gellaw Newco 204 and Gellaw Newco 202 respectively in 2019.

Gellaw Newco 202

2020

Gellaw Newco 204

2020

The two no longer match! Although they do in parts but who are the creditors for Gellaw Newco 204...

PPS- hopefully the time has run out in terms of any appeal vs the -12 for admin.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thoughts @Hxj ?

I would ask - what would you expect the Administrators to say? "We won't do our best to negotiate and we want to maximise the penalties?"

As previously discussed the appeal process on the Insolvency Penalty is prescriptive - there should be an announcement soon from ome of the parties if an appeal has been made.

The point regarding the accounts is entirely correct, but misleading.  In administration the company will not be pursed for outstanding accounts.  I would ask the Administrators what the position is, if the company successfully comes out of Administration as they will be required to submit accounts.

Oh and the Company Law and Companies House position is irrelevant when considering the EFL Regulations.  

Edited September 29, 2021 by Hxj

[Davefevs]

Redundancies started?

 

[mjd]

Just read they have been hit with a 5000 pound fine for trouble with Sheffield United.  As have made 20 people redundant, bad times for them. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by mjd

[AnotherDerbyFan]

On 25/09/2021 at 11:42, Mr Popodopolous said:

On a side note, I have to say that some on DCFCFans do their club little credit. Or few favours.

Now forums are forums and it's not like they carry much sway but it seems to me that Derby need to rebuild bridges not only with the EFL but start to with other clubs too. Mel leaving will have helped.

The thing about DCFCFans however, is how independent from the club is it? I noticed eg that there are club advertisements that might help to fund it.

Sure that Gibson and the EFL would be quite interested at some of the comments that appear on there. How arms length from the club is it. The forum operator also appeared to be one of Mel's favoured guests for behind closed doors fan briefing.

Their statement going into administration didn't help, EFL took a part of that badly and Rooney reportedly intimated that he would consider throwing youth products in if a further deduction ie the mooted one for FFP arose. Made reference to the integrity of the competition.

As a club they need to watch their step tbh. I'm sure the administrators will take a pragmatic approach fwiw but a shitload of goodwill has been burnt through by Mel and no small number of gloating fans since 2019

Completely independent. 

Club adverts no different to any other google advert - targetted towards the user. David stopped them as soon as admin was announced.

The club at various times has invited people to supporter meetings. The recent few have had representatives from a range of 'supporter groups', such as Punjabi Rams, The Rams Trust, and of course DCFCfans. Earlier meetings during Mel's spell as owner invited a group of fans (only from the forum) as it is the largest supporter group, of which many other members of other supporter groups have accounts on it.

Rooney's comment was essentially saying we'd start preparing for next season, given 21 points pretty much means relegation. It would still be a reasonably strong team for us with all having already played first team games and all being classed as professional standing (with the exception of Williams who is a scholar).

[AnotherDerbyFan]

On 28/09/2021 at 11:27, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's an illuminating article, thanks for posting Dave.

Reading that, I posted snippets of the press conference the other week and tbh the administration team did seem somewhat bullish.

Couple of bits. IIRC the bit bumped up (as per Govt site) for HMRC as preferential is employee NI, VAT and PAYE. There are some other categories but those feel the most relevant in cases like this- the rest of the HMRC debt owing would be secondary preferential.

The other bit is a claim I've periodically seen elsewhere that their wage bill is £15m, £12m and perhaps even as low as £10m.

I struggle to see how personally.

a) Club in isolation

b) Consolidated

c) Just the football staff

d) Just the players

e) Inclusive of NI, PAYE?

No doubt it's dropped but the running costs were huge in 2017/18. That's as in Revenue -  Operating Costs.

It's a large organisation but the Sevco 5112 IIRC had an operating loss of £45-46m. Has this really been slashed so far in 3 years, 4 at a push!

Take a look at the first team squad and tell me what you honestly think the player wage bill currently stands at then?

 

Signed under £12.5k embargo: Marshall, Byrne, Jozwiak, Kazim

Signed under £4.5k embargo: Allsop, Davies, Jagielka, Steraman, Morrison, Baldock

Recent academy graduates: Ebosele, McDonald, JBrown, Watson, Hutchinson, Stretton

Longer term academy graduates (in 2nd or 3rd season): Buchanan, Bird, Knight, Sibley

Other: Roos, Forsyth, Bielik, Shinnie, Lawrence

 

You refer to the 17/18 wage bill, yet ignore who we've offloaded since. Vydra, Weimann, Shackell, Jerome, Bent, Baird, Ledley, Nugent, Butterfield, Blackman, Pearce, Johnson, Bryson, Bennett, Keogh, Olsson, Thorne, Martin, Anya, Huddlestone, Wisdom, Carson. you could probably count on one hand how few were on less than £20k pw.

Edited September 30, 2021 by AnotherDerbyFan