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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


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18 minutes ago, chinapig said:

True though the other side of the coin is that markets don't like uncertainty. So if the process is dragged out for another few months is any potential buyer going to commit? And do the Administrators have to borrow to fund the club for another few months, assuming they have achieved their original aim of raising a loan to fund it until January?

Just looks like a continuation of Morris' delaying tactics to me.

…..and delaying tactics look to be exactly the opposite of what is required at this point.

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23 minutes ago, chinapig said:

True though the other side of the coin is that markets don't like uncertainty.

They don't but this a one way only adjustment on this matter, it's 12 points or less than 12 points, so that is overall positive.  The FFP points deduction would be more of an issue due to the uncertainty and cummalative effect.

25 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Just looks like a continuation of Morris' delaying tactics to me.

We are 80 days and counting to the January transfer window.  At which point the squad will be destroyed by offers on the better players that the Administrators will have little option but to accept and in respect of players who want to move on.

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2 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Wigan's was about a month iirc

Sounds right. It shouldn't drag in any case.

I suppose a question might be, a tweet by Nixon aside-which is something we'll go with- is it cast iron guaranteed that Derby have submitted all of their evidence including the several years of accounts required within the prerequisite seven days?

I won't post it again but a deadline is a deadline is a deadline. The regs stated everything that needed to be submitted within that seven day window.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Interestingly, skim reading the Derby forum.

Ghost of Clough talks a lot of sense, as per tbh. That aside an interesting quote, although I certainly haven't fact checked. Not a quote but a claim. Rooney declared in the summer that no players would leave without his say so

That could be seen as putting competitiveness on the pitch over aversion of financial difficulties potentially. I hope that the EFL pick up on it- provided that it is true and a fair reflection of course.

Rooney said that Lawrence not for sale at any price in August.

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/wayne-rooney-addresses-derby-county-player-sale-talk-amid-west-brom-interest/

Any other quotes along these lines?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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7 hours ago, Hxj said:

They don't but this a one way only adjustment on this matter, it's 12 points or less than 12 points, so that is overall positive.  The FFP points deduction would be more of an issue due to the uncertainty and cummalative effect.

We are 80 days and counting to the January transfer window.  At which point the squad will be destroyed by offers on the better players that the Administrators will have little option but to accept and in respect of players who want to move on.

Will the administrators have to accept the `best` offer on the table or will they have, in effect, a `reserve` price for players. Take Lawrence for example - if the best offer was, say, 500k (extreme example I know) would they be bound to accept it or can they say no, you`re taking the piss? 

Edited by Lanterne Rouge
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3 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Will the administrators have to accept the `best` offer on the table or will they have, in effect, a `reserve` price for players. Take Lawrence for example - if the best offer was, say, 500k (extreme example I know) would they be bound to accept it or can they say no, you`re taking the piss? 

Clearly there will be a commercial decision about what you do, that don't have to accept any offer, but the Administrators will have to justify themselves more than a benevolent owner would. However if his contract is up in the summer, this is his fifth season at Derby (@AnotherDerbyFan will know more than me) it clearly makes it more likely that he will be sold.  Plus do you want a player around who really doesn't want to play for you?

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11 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Will the administrators have to accept the `best` offer on the table or will they have, in effect, a `reserve` price for players. Take Lawrence for example - if the best offer was, say, 500k (extreme example I know) would they be bound to accept it or can they say no, you`re taking the piss? 

That would be case of the biter bit then, as Derby has been taking the piss for the last 4 years!

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2 hours ago, downendcity said:

That would be case of the biter bit then, as Derby has been taking the piss for the last 4 years!

Under Mel’s old model, Lawrence would probably still be worth £5m in the books, maybe slightly less now in final year.  But under new amortisation method, will be less than £1m.  Whether that will influence any fee the Administrators might accept I don’t know?

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Had a bit of a look today at it all and I have to say I'm a bit worried about the bar being low enough for Derby to overturn.

Their accounts clearly show a pattern to 2018 of escalating spending and 2019 as well no doubt if we ever see those would show substantial losses.

As I understand it the Club shall bear burden of proof but in these types of cases it's balance of probability IIRC. One metric I saw suggested anything above 50-50 and the Club win.

The EFL regs don't seem as specific as they might be, in terms of definitions.

Thoughts @Hxj what chance do we think of it being overturned? I've read the regs and they don't seem as specific as they might be.

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I think I have come up with a solution that satisfies all parties.

Firstly, allow Derby to keep stringing everybody along.

Secondly, all Championship teams fail to field a team for every fixture with Derby thus forfeiting their matches and ensuring they get promoted automatically.

Thirdly, when they are gone accumulating a new record low points total in the Premiership, to beat their existing record. The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

Et voila, Derby get to be in the Premiership (for one season), and the EFL and it’s members get rid of a club that has no respect for the rules.

Of course, readmission could be allowed with a 30 point deduction for each of the first two seasons.

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2 minutes ago, GreedyHarry said:

I think I have come up with a solution that satisfies all parties.

Firstly, allow Derby to keep stringing everybody along.

Secondly, all Championship teams fail to field a team for every fixture with Derby thus forfeiting their matches and ensuring they get promoted automatically.

Thirdly, when they are gone accumulating a new record low points total in the Premiership, to beat their existing record. The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

Et voila, Derby get to be in the Premiership (for one season), and the EFL and it’s members get rid of a club that has no respect for the rules.

Of course, readmission could be allowed with a 30 point deduction for each of the first two seasons.

A great idea 💡 but once again I am sure Derby would go down the appeal route and mock the rules do wants the point. Derby continue to think they are above the law. The EFL just need to enforce their punishment appropriately 

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1 hour ago, GreedyHarry said:

I think I have come up with a solution that satisfies all parties.

Firstly, allow Derby to keep stringing everybody along.

Secondly, all Championship teams fail to field a team for every fixture with Derby thus forfeiting their matches and ensuring they get promoted automatically.

Thirdly, when they are gone accumulating a new record low points total in the Premiership, to beat their existing record. The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

Et voila, Derby get to be in the Premiership (for one season), and the EFL and it’s members get rid of a club that has no respect for the rules.

Of course, readmission could be allowed with a 30 point deduction for each of the first two seasons.

 

1 hour ago, hertsexile said:

A great idea 💡 but once again I am sure Derby would go down the appeal route and mock the rules do wants the point. Derby continue to think they are above the law. The EFL just need to enforce their punishment appropriately 

Not much scope for appeal in that scenario. No golden share if they don't agree or at best no fixtures to be allocated to them.

In this particular scenario, we're reliant on an Independent Panel- I read a suggestion that 'Unwell' Mel Morris is pushing this. 

He by amazing medical coincidence had Covid twice to the extent he was either in hospital or on a ventilator. Forget FFP, it's a matter for medical and scientific analysis!! :)

They are a scummy club though, I am starting to wonder at what point clubs can look seriously at their League membership let's say, I've never known a Championship regular to act like this for as long with such misplaced indignation. Scum. 

PS, Andronikou is the same guy who was at Portsmouth. He made multiple appeals there on various issues, don't think any succeeded he has form.

How many would actually miss Derby if they went pop? I have had great sympathy with every or most club insolvencies to date but am finding it hard to muster up all that much for the current iteration of Derby. 

Perhaps for greater good it would send shockwaves through the game and if HMRC don't blink it would also be beneficial. It won't happen though of course so it's fine to speculate.

Two more thoughts. Clubs under suspicion or accused of P&S/FFP breaches on the way up get stripped of their Parachute Payments on return. Would need either PL agreement or a truly Independent regulator for football.

On balance I wouldn't mind Derby not going bust. Being purchased by an asset stripper would be fitting however.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, GreedyHarry said:

The EFL, via their members pass a new rule that any club with outstanding and unsettled P&S issues,or other points deductions are banned from entrance to the EFL.

 

A few years ago weren't QPR threatened with something like this? If the eFL refused to have them, QPR would have gone from the Prem straight into the National League.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37412-derby-county-administration-with-the-slight-possibility-of-liquidation-still-there/page/171/#comments there's talk of a group making an offer to buy club, ground and training ground for £45 million.

Edited by 22A
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7 minutes ago, 22A said:

A few years ago weren't QPR threatened with something like this? If the eFL refused to have them, QPR would have gone from the Prem straight into the National League.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37412-derby-county-administration-with-the-slight-possibility-of-liquidation-still-there/page/171/#comments there's talk of a group making an offer to buy club, ground and training ground for £45 million.

IIRC the QPR threat was tied to any refusal to negotiate, go to Arbitration or pay up outright. They agreed to arbitrate and the EFL didn't seem unhappy at the prospect.

Some sort of auto hard Embargo combined with the obligation to still comply with FFP could be a good starting point for 

Yes saw that. I would be very interested to know the take of the EFL if the club and the assets- one of which went for £81m- going for £45m for the lot. That £45m isn't the sale price but doubtless a good chunk of debt,ie no sale price, pay down up to £45m in debt.

Stadium being included however?? Err...£81m in 2018.

Derby fans hope for a clean slate under the new owners if there is relegation this year.

While I get that, not I'd suggest while there are such downsized transactions. I'd hope that the EFL would look to take steps.

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@JamesBCFC

Administration appeal

It's a genuine disgrace that they are appealing it but they- and Andronikou in his Portsmouth days- have form, so though the audacity is shocking it is Derby and to an extent Andronikou. Probably late October to mid November.

FFP

That's still up for negotiation or a hearing. Mooted to be 9 pts plus a further 3 suspended and the usual business plan.

In the case of the 2nd, what I would like to see is a good catch-all approach, albeit I don't know if possible...

If avoid relegation this season by less than 9 pts- added to this season's total- down they go!

If relegated in any event- added to next seasons total- ie they start League One on -9 with a further 3 suspended and still in and around the business plan. The only way is up!

If survive by more than 9 pts, then next season ie start next season on -9 etc in the Championship- down the bottom of the League.

Think of it as a nice game of snakes and ladders. ;)

They can keep haggling if they wish but they remain under embargo for many matters- and people are being disappointingly charitable, e.g. 32Red are forwarding some funding, Arsenal are letting them defer the Bielik instalment- as it goes there is a provision in terms of football creditors rule for this. For example if a club cannot meet their football creditor obligations as they fall due, then central funds/awards can be redirected in order to fulfil this or help to fulfil this. Ergo, a chunk of the next TV and Solidarity money should go to Arsenal for Bielik on release. that is to say instead of to Derby just send some to Arsenal if required and give Derby the remainder...unsure how TV and Solidarity money is distributed over a year/season however. I don't understand why that rule isn't automatic for clubs in administration what with the football creditors rule.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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@Davefevs @Mr Popodopolous

If there was ever a time to implement a salary cap - then that time is now.

Have a look at Australian Rules Footy - the salary cap works really well.

Its combined with a draft rather than academies, but clubs use it well. Clubs have a player limit.

An example would be Gold Coast Suns, who are really right at their limit - so they gave away their draft pick #19 - as long as the club that took it (#19 usually gets you a good young 18yr old to your club) took a player and paid their wages.

So Fremantle Dockers took pick #19 plus GCS player Will Brodie - it was a win / win

GCS got Brodies $500,000 a year salary off the books, and Fremantle got a decent player in Brodie AND used pick #19 to then land a really talented youngster from Geelong Cats.

 

It would take some doing - but with say, a club only being allowed 25 players on their 'senior' list , and 10 on a 'rookie' list (who can go to 'senior' if a player is long-term injured) - a national draft from an 'academy pool' (with teams having 1st option on their own academy player) - and a salary cap, then things would be so much more stable in English Football.

 

I know it would be a long term project - but hopefully someone will start the ball rolling soon.

Perhaps the EFL could fund a study.

It's really the only way to ensure a level playing field - and prevent another 'Bury' disaster.

 

2p

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@JamesBCFC

Administration appeal

It's a genuine disgrace that they are appealing it but they- and Andronikou in his Portsmouth days- have form, so though the audacity is shocking it is Derby and to an extent Andronikou. Probably late October to mid November.

FFP

That's still up for negotiation or a hearing. Mooted to be 9 pts plus a further 3 suspended and the usual business plan.

In the case of the 2nd, what I would like to see is a good catch-all approach, albeit I don't know if possible...

If avoid relegation this season by less than 9 pts- added to this season's total- down they go!

If relegated in any event- added to next seasons total- ie they start League One on -9 with a further 3 suspended and still in and around the business plan. The only way is up!

If survive by more than 9 pts, then next season ie start next season on -9 etc in the Championship- down the bottom of the League.

Think of it as a nice game of snakes and ladders. ;)

They can keep haggling if they wish but they remain under embargo for many matters- and people are being disappointingly charitable, e.g. 32Red are forwarding some funding, Arsenal are letting them defer the Bielik instalment- as it goes there is a provision in terms of football creditors rule for this. For example if a club cannot meet their football creditor obligations as they fall due, then central funds/awards can be redirected in order to fulfil this or help to fulfil this. Ergo, a chunk of the next TV and Solidarity money should go to Arsenal for Bielik on release. that is to say instead of to Derby just send some to Arsenal if required and give Derby the remainder...unsure how TV and Solidarity money is distributed over a year/season however. I don't understand why that rule isn't automatic for clubs in administration what with the football creditors rule.

Any points deduction will be this season, unless the penalty is awarded after some date in March…..and then the rules are as you suggest.

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Has Derby yet produced accounts yet? 

If I fail to submit my self assesment tax return on time I receive a fine, which escalates the longer I delay. I think I'm right in saying (because I've always submitted and paid on time) that any tax due can have a penalty applied depending how long payment is delayed. 

Something along these lines would sort clubs out in terms of submitting accounts with a sliding scale of points deductions for delayed submission of accounts. 

On that basis Derby would likely be in the Conference next season! 

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29 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Has Derby yet produced accounts yet? 

If I fail to submit my self assesment tax return on time I receive a fine, which escalates the longer I delay. I think I'm right in saying (because I've always submitted and paid on time) that any tax due can have a penalty applied depending how long payment is delayed. 

Something along these lines would sort clubs out in terms of submitting accounts with a sliding scale of points deductions for delayed submission of accounts. 

On that basis Derby would likely be in the Conference next season! 

Think Mr P or HXJ said that it is not the Administrator’s responsibility to produce the missing accounts, but I guess whoever buys them might have to.

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26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think Mr P or HXJ said that it is not the Administrator’s responsibility to produce the missing accounts, but I guess whoever buys them might have to.

Weren't accounts outstanding for some time ime even before administration?

Also, going back to the first time the 3 year period was being assesses 2018?) when projected accounts were required for the third year by March IIRC, weren't there a number of clubs late/very late in submitting accounts? 

As with somany aspects of ffp rules, it seems the EFL naively assumed that all clubs would not only comply but would do so to the letter and on time. 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think Mr P or HXJ said that it is not the Administrator’s responsibility to produce the missing accounts, but I guess whoever buys them might have to.

Does that mean that decisions will have to be made by the EFL or on appeal with some of the evidence missing? Surely not?

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On 12/10/2021 at 22:34, Hxj said:

Clearly there will be a commercial decision about what you do, that don't have to accept any offer, but the Administrators will have to justify themselves more than a benevolent owner would. However if his contract is up in the summer, this is his fifth season at Derby (@AnotherDerbyFan will know more than me) it clearly makes it more likely that he will be sold.  Plus do you want a player around who really doesn't want to play for you?

Yep, final year. To keep things simple, only Bielik, Bird, Knight, Sibley and Jozwiak are currently contacted beyond the end of the season as a result of embargo restrictions.

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@JamesBCFC

Administration appeal

It's a genuine disgrace that they are appealing it but they- and Andronikou in his Portsmouth days- have form, so though the audacity is shocking it is Derby and to an extent Andronikou. Probably late October to mid November.

FFP

That's still up for negotiation or a hearing. Mooted to be 9 pts plus a further 3 suspended and the usual business plan.

In the case of the 2nd, what I would like to see is a good catch-all approach, albeit I don't know if possible...

If avoid relegation this season by less than 9 pts- added to this season's total- down they go!

If relegated in any event- added to next seasons total- ie they start League One on -9 with a further 3 suspended and still in and around the business plan. The only way is up!

If survive by more than 9 pts, then next season ie start next season on -9 etc in the Championship- down the bottom of the League.

Think of it as a nice game of snakes and ladders. ;)

They can keep haggling if they wish but they remain under embargo for many matters- and people are being disappointingly charitable, e.g. 32Red are forwarding some funding, Arsenal are letting them defer the Bielik instalment- as it goes there is a provision in terms of football creditors rule for this. For example if a club cannot meet their football creditor obligations as they fall due, then central funds/awards can be redirected in order to fulfil this or help to fulfil this. Ergo, a chunk of the next TV and Solidarity money should go to Arsenal for Bielik on release. that is to say instead of to Derby just send some to Arsenal if required and give Derby the remainder...unsure how TV and Solidarity money is distributed over a year/season however. I don't understand why that rule isn't automatic for clubs in administration what with the football creditors rule.

I think you're being a bit harsh by calling it a disgrace. Based on the discussions we've had on the subject, you must surely concede that there is some merit to the appeal. You didn't say Wigan's appeal was a disgrace, yet their justification of the Covid impact was even weaker than ours.

The season the P&S deduction occurs should be this season and no later. With what you're advocating, you may as well just implement an automatic relegation and save everyone a lot of wasted time.

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

Has Derby yet produced accounts yet? 

If I fail to submit my self assesment tax return on time I receive a fine, which escalates the longer I delay. I think I'm right in saying (because I've always submitted and paid on time) that any tax due can have a penalty applied depending how long payment is delayed. 

Something along these lines would sort clubs out in terms of submitting accounts with a sliding scale of points deductions for delayed submission of accounts. 

On that basis Derby would likely be in the Conference next season! 

I'm led to believe that a club doesn't have to submit accounts after going into administration? I could be wrong on that though.
P&S submissions would still be due for all relevant periods so it's not as if we can escape punishment by hiding accounts... they even saw provisional accounts before we went into administration anyway.
Don't forget, the delay in submitting the accounts was because of the ongoing charge, appeal, and then subsequent discussions to produce a set of accounts both the club and EFL were happy with.

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34 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

You didn't say Wigan's appeal was a disgrace, yet their justification of the Covid impact was even weaker than ours.

Wasn't Wigan's appeal essentially that they had been screwed by a crap owner who put them in administration for his own purposes so they should be let off or am I misremembering?

More a case of feeble grounds for appeal than a disgrace perhaps, though I don't recall if there was any attempt to cook the books admittedly.

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41 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Don't forget, the delay in submitting the accounts was because of the ongoing charge, appeal, and then subsequent discussions to produce a set of accounts both the club and EFL were happy with.

Iirc the EFL said the revised accounts were submitted within the agreed, slightly extended, deadline.

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1 minute ago, chinapig said:

Wasn't Wigan's appeal essentially that they had been screwed by a crap owner who put them in administration for his own purposes so they should be let off or am I misremembering?

More a case of feeble grounds for appeal than a disgrace perhaps, though I don't recall if there was any attempt to cook the books admittedly.

With Wigan yeah feeble excuse, justice seemed to have been done in the end. Having said that there were for a time wild rumours about betting in the Far East being tied to it somehow. That said on the evidence, it wasn't force majeure. Don't think the final conclusion of those claims ever got reported on.

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