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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


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45 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I think you're being a bit harsh by calling it a disgrace. Based on the discussions we've had on the subject, you must surely concede that there is some merit to the appeal. You didn't say Wigan's appeal was a disgrace, yet their justification of the Covid impact was even weaker than ours.

The season the P&S deduction occurs should be this season and no later. With what you're advocating, you may as well just implement an automatic relegation and save everyone a lot of wasted time.

In truth, the context in which I called, maybe called rather than call - it a disgrace was that it was/is just yet another attempt to wriggle off the hook. Definitely a degree of exasperation, final straw etc.

Some merit? I'm unsure either way, £20m of income from say mid March 2020 to end of June 2020 is a chunk for sure but then didn't 8k season ticket holders leave cash in the club? Plus turning down bids for Buchanan and potentially Lawrence this summer- Rooney declaring that the latter not for sale at any price in August.

Strikes me that Mel was maybe trying to hang on for a while and the date of administration was fairly opportunistic.

A couple of weeks post the summer window  "Oh, can't sell players for 15 weeks now. Ample time to find a buyer". Whereas had administrators arrived in the summer, players surely would've been sold.

Would the losses not to an extent also be offset by the fact that HMRC and other debts were racking up, instalments defaulted on, zero cash to Cocu yet you said. MSD support. All that makes me think that the running costs- that's not just wages but running costs including these, everything- of the group aren't all that low.

Wigan's case in hindsight was without merit, foundation etc. However they also (as far as I recall anyway) didn't seriously and persistently tried to swerve the regs.

Yeah ultimately agreed, although it was a creative idea that covered a fair few bases perhaps.

On a wider note I still like the idea of future financial information, combined with soft sanctions perhaps including regular checks and the projections in March bringing about the deduction for a club in that particular season. Easier now given the fixed asset loophole has gone and the amortisation one should be tidied up.

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Report on Derby- John Percy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/14/special-report-inside-derby-countys-desperate-battle-survival/

There is a segment from the article that causes a bit of concern- the EFL should have expected dirty tricks.

Quote

Derby’s long-running row with the EFL could be pivotal to a sale. The feud was reignited earlier this week after Quantuma lodged an appeal against the club’s 12-point deduction for going into administration.

After receiving legal advice from sports lawyer Nick De Marco, Quantuma are arguing that the punishment is unreasonable due to the impact of Covid-19 on finances.

However, the EFL is said to be shocked at Derby’s appeal as it believes the club’s financial problems clearly pre-date Covid.  

There are also suspicions from rival clubs that it is an attempt to reduce the nine-point deduction for historical financial breaches which is also hanging over the club.

Wigan’s own appeal over the punishment for administration was rejected last August, and Derby’s case will be heard by a disciplinary commission within a month.

They don't learn- the EFL should have been prepared for something like this and should seek to crush Derby in all honesty, hammer them from all angles. Crush the bastards.

No surprise to see that pos representing them too.

They are under embargo for many reasons, until no accounts at CH these remain- new owners have FFP maybe to deal with, or a 2 year embargo mooted in lieu of an agreed business plan as well as the accounts to the EFL, the P&S reasons, HMRC- the EFL need to show no mercy and give no quarter to such a horrible club with entitled fans.

If the stadium goes back significantly under value, dig in over that- Derby seem to have declared war on the EFL, it's about time the EFL and rival clubs went at Derby with everything and do so until such time as their horrible entitled club learn some humility.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Don’t they have the option to add points on also if the Club don’t work with the EFL.  They can also save points for co-operation.

If true, I’d just cancel their fixtures now.  Had enough of this crap.  They cheated, they know they cheated.

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11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t they have the option to add points on also if the Club don’t work with the EFL.  They can also save points for co-operation.

If true, I’d just cancel their fixtures now.  Had enough of this crap.  They cheated, they know they cheated.

The courts would regard them as vexatious litigants and bar then from further actions. Sadly the EFL has no such authority and wouldn't have the guts to use it if it did.

Weak and naive are two words that come to mind. Let's hope Tracey Crouch gets the external regulator she wants.

Edited by chinapig
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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t they have the option to add points on also if the Club don’t work with the EFL.  They can also save points for co-operation.

If true, I’d just cancel their fixtures now.  Had enough of this crap.  They cheated, they know they cheated.

and they been cheating for a while, give them the option of 12 points deducted for the next 3 seasons or 18 for 2

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23 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The courts would regard them as vexatious litigants and bar then from further actions. Sadly the EFL has no such authority and wouldn't have the guts to use it if it did.

Weak and naive are two words that come to mind. Let's hope Tracey Crouch gets the external regulator she wants.

Is this correct? EFL regs contain an agreement to arbitrate and seem to basically forbid court action as part of their terms of membership. You could go to court but you cannot participate in the EFL.

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Only remedies appear to be Sections 67 and 68 of the Arbitration Act.

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What would happen if all 23 clubs collectively refused to play them?

On another note, surely it is up to the clubs and the League ultimately on 

@Davefevs  I thought Chansiri was bad with his "Oh? I thought it could be done" but he's got nothing and I mean nothing on these *******. Tbh comparing the two his crimes are very, very small beer. Tbh Harvey seemed awfully accommodating to him so I can even see why he thought it to an extent.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Is this correct? EFL regs are an agreement to arbitrate and seem to basically forbid court action as part of their terms of membership.

What would happen if all 23 clubs collectively refused to play them?

@Davefevs  I thought Chansiri was bad but he's got nothing and I mean nothing on these *******.

I was simply making a comparison between the EFL's naivety and weakness and how the courts treat parties who are taking the piss and wasting the courts' time. Not suggesting clubs could take court action.

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3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I was simply making a comparison between the EFL's naivety and weakness and how the courts treat parties who are taking the piss and wasting the courts' time. Not suggesting clubs could take court action.

Oh okay, thanks- got mixed up- I assumed you meant the EFL would have been deemed the vexatious litigants by a court. I'm not sure any provision exists in EFL regs sadly but could be wrong.

They have to prove it was the sole cause, the burden of proof lies with the club so...

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That's a laugh, Derby fans thinking I'm ill-informed on their issue- not read a fans forum with such an unwarranted sense of entitlement and persecution complex about such issues...

Some poor sap hoped that they would be signing Adam Armstrong this summer- I mean really!? Maybe it was saps.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's a laugh, Derby fans thinking I'm ill-informed on their issue- not read a fans forum with such an unwarranted sense of entitlement and persecution complex about such issues...

Some poor saps thought they would be signing Adam Armstrong this summer- I mean really!?

Maybe they got him mixed up with Seth Armstrong.

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5 minutes ago, supercidered said:

Maybe they got him mixed up with Seth Armstrong.

More chance of signing Neil Armstrong...

What stuns me though is a) They thought the EFL would allow them to turn on the spending taps this summer again given their likely FFP position b) The lack of accounts c) The hit to income for all combined with the continuing need to comply with point a. I mean wow.

Some of this thread makes for funny reading now.

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/37431-summer-2021-transfer-window-suggestion-thread/#comments

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27 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's a laugh, Derby fans thinking I'm ill-informed on their issue- not read a fans forum with such an unwarranted sense of entitlement and persecution complex about such issues...

Some poor sap hoped that they would be signing Adam Armstrong this summer- I mean really!? Maybe it was saps.

In fairness if we were in the same boat I suspect most of our fans wouldn't bother to inform themselves on the numbers or the regulations. After all we still have some who insist Steve uses P&S as an excuse not to spend money.

What you tend to get is a majority arguing on emotional grounds, which is not unique to Derby fans. I may think @AnotherDerbyFanfalls into motivated reasoning but at least they examine the numbers and regs to make their case, which I can respect 

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I don't think they'll go bust- they strike me as too lucky and yes he was, as high as one can get!

A good few years of suffering in the lower Leagues would be more than satisfactory however. A bonus of a good firesale in Jan would be no bad thing either. A 2 year business plan or embargo would be welcome.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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The rot runs deep though, you only have to read this Supporters Trust meeting with the EFL and some of the questions.

https://ramstrust.org.uk/wp/efl-response-to-ramstrust/

image.png.26f5385df31b5790572597009bead628.png

Okay on one level, fair- a break-even in cashflow, perhaps even a positive cash-flow naturally generated could be one good way forward. However querying the regulations they tried to swerve is also a bit rich.

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EFL's response is spot on.

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As it is with this.

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As it is with this.

They're either grossly entitled or hard of thinking some of them.

Most of these questions are stupid and whether subconciously or otherwise, contain more than a little undercurrent of special pleading.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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5 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

To keep things simple, only Bielik, Bird, Knight, Sibley and Jozwiak are currently contacted beyond the end of the season

That will make complying with League One FFP easier!

 

5 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

you must surely concede that there is some merit to the appeal

I'm not sure if there is any merit or not.  I suspect that it will depend upon the debt to HMRC and the background to the winding up action and the withdrawal of that action, plus the funding pattern from Morris over the years and how that changed.  'Solely' is going to be very difficult to prove given the known previous financial circumstances.

 

5 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

I'm led to believe that a club doesn't have to submit accounts after going into administration?

That is correct as far as Companies House goes, they will not pursue the accounts, but that doesn't mean that they can't be submitted. However the EFL regulations require it.  So it is possible that in order to comply with the EFL regulations and come off the Embargo, accounts will have to be submitted to Companies House.

 

5 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

the delay in submitting the accounts was because of the ongoing charge

I don't believe that.  I suspect it was because submitting accounts would require Morris to either agree that the company was a going concern, and agree (due to the Companies Acts) to fund it for 12 months after the accounts were submitted, or accept that the company wasn't a going concern and face suspension from the EFL. 

I can't see any reason why the post 2018 accounts were not submitted to Companies House and the EFL with an understanding that the FFP position would be finalised after the decision on the earlier years.

... oh wait .. maybe it was because the £25 million odd amortisation charge in the 2019 accounts would have remained hidden if those accounts were kept secret ...

Edited by Hxj
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Quick question @Hxj thought you might have some ideas.

Has it yet reached a point where the EFL, perhaps lobbied by a majority of rival clubs can look at Derby and their continued League membership?

Just wondering where the limits are, what the minimum criteria before looking into getting rid, suspending membership or not allocating fixtures? I struggle to see that the EFL or many if any rival clubs will have any patience left given that the administration team appear to be carrying on where the old regime left off.

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21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Has it yet reached a point where the EFL, perhaps lobbied by a majority of rival clubs can look at Derby and their continued League membership?

It is possible - it needs the passing of a Special resolution at the AGM or an EGM.  No idea what the number needed is, but it is likely to be at least 75% of all members.

It won't happen unless Derby go into Liquidation in which case it will.

As I've said previously the 'Press Releases' are written for the audience of the person paying for them, so generally I ignore them.

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2 minutes ago, Hxj said:

It is possible - it needs the passing of a Special resolution at the AGM or an EGM.  No idea what the number needed is, but it is likely to be at least 75% of all members.

It won't happen unless Derby go into Liquidation in which case it will.

As I've said previously the 'Press Releases' are written for the audience of the person paying for them, so generally I ignore them.

Just liquidation then?

Not persistent breaches and attempted breaches, surely there are limits as to what every other party can accept.

One thing that also occurred, in the event that Pride Park sold back for much less, say £20-25m I saw mooted. FFP issue?

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21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One thing that also occurred, in the event that Pride Park sold back for much less, say £20-25m I saw mooted. FFP issue?

The new FFP Regulation:

1.1.2(b) with effect from, and including the Accounting Reference Period covering Season 2021/22, profit/loss on disposal of any tangible fixed asset.

solves one loop hole but creates another.

I would like a 1.1.2(c) which would read:

1.1.2(c) with effect from, and including the Accounting Reference Period covering Season 2021/22 no adjustment is made under Regulation 1.1.2(a)(i) or (b) where a profit on the the disposal of a fixed asset was included within the FFP calculations for a season before 2021/22, until the amount not so adjusted equals the profit so included.

Edited by Hxj
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So. If I am reading the latest reports correctly. 
 

Derby County’s administrators are going to argue that COVID-19 is a Force Majeure and as such going into administration was out of the control of the club. While simultaneously not supplying the three previous years of accounts that would prove or disprove their case!?

@Hxj @Mr Popodopolous is that a fair summary? 

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5 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Derby County’s administrators are going to argue that COVID-19 is a Force Majeure and as such going into administration was out of the control of the club.

Yes.

5 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

While simultaneously not supplying the three previous years of accounts that would prove or disprove their case!?

No.

For an appeal Independent Accountants are instructed by the EFL, paid for by DCFC, to review all the financial circumstances of the club.  It has been reported that the EFL have asked for DCFC to supply six years of financial data to enable the report to be prepared.

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4 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

So. If I am reading the latest reports correctly. 
 

Derby County’s administrators are going to argue that COVID-19 is a Force Majeure and as such going into administration was out of the control of the club. While simultaneously not supplying the three previous years of accounts that would prove or disprove their case!?

@Hxj @Mr Popodopolous is that a fair summary? 

It's astonishing chutzpah isn't it.

They according to Nixon needed/need to submit 2015/16 to 2020/21 for thus purpose. However Nixon suggested that those accounts were only applicable for this case, don't need to submit to CH while in administration but surely P&S figures to the EFL.

We already know the substance of 2015/16 to 2017/18, save for the amortisation bit. Amortisation is a non-cash expense.

My understanding is that the accounts go to an independent firm of accountants who produce a report for the hearing.

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14 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Yes.

No.

For an appeal Independent Accountants are instructed by the EFL, paid for by DCFC, to review all the financial circumstances of the club.  It has been reported that the EFL have asked for DCFC to supply six years of financial data to enable the report to be prepared.

Six years of financial data? So not the annual reports for those years themselves? 
 

I know you two guys follow this stuff closely. Are there any other Championship clubs that have not submitted reports to the EFL over the same period?

@Hxj @Mr Popodopolous

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5 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Six years of financial data? So not the annual reports for those years themselves? 

The actual transactional data is considerably more valuable than the accounts.  This is because the accounts can be constructed from the data, but the data cannot be obtained from the accounts.

No other EFL clubs (all three divisions) currently have any embargoes for missing accounts or FFP data.

Edited by Hxj
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50 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The new FFP Regulation:

1.1.2(b) with effect from, and including the Accounting Reference Period covering Season 2021/22, profit/loss on disposal of any tangible fixed asset.

solves one loop hole but creates another.

I would like a 1.1.2(c) which would read:

1.1.2(c) with effect from, and including the Accounting Reference Period covering Season 2021/22 no adjustment is made under Regulation 1.1.2(a)(i) or (b) where a profit on the the disposal of a fixed asset was included within the FFP calculations for a season before 2021/22, until the amount not so adjusted equals the profit so included.

Thanks for the clarification. It's another loophole then,  would the EFL just have to accept it? I can't see other clubs letting them quietly. Can't see the EFL being at all happy about it either. The club or fans are hopeful for a takeover by January, these things can take time, especially to unpick complex issues...

1.1.2 (c) sounds interesting, what would that do in plain English? Amount not so adjusted- what would it mean for this if that was in?

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