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Derby Deserve Relegation; Are the Football League going to bungle this one too?


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1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

Even under a transfer embargo you can sign players,

Granted they are only on the free or loan and must not breach a wage threshold, and finally once you have 24 players (youth over 17 on professional contracts count towards this I think)

Then you can no longer sign anyone,

As for ooc players going their, some go to be in the shop window, some because they have nothing else and some because they want the challenge

I remembered I’d seen this in the Derby decision document. 6.2 covers off the likes of Ebosele, Buchanan, Bird, etc.

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11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Pretty simple route out of it really. Either someone stumps up the cash or Derby dies. 

Same as it was 4 months ago.

I find the Derby fans crying about this blaming the efl amusing

This is Derby's fault and own making, had they accepted the punishment last season and not appealed then none of this would be happening,

They'd be in league 1 with new owners 

Also stating the the hmrc won't get their money if Derby are liquidated,

The hmrc want a massive club to go to the wall to send a message to the other clubs not to mess with their tax contributions 

Edited by Monkeh
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I would like Derby to survive and I feel sympathy with a reasonable chunk of the fans but shit like this tempers it!

At a time where we are having to pay more in NI from April, HMRC will be looking for more tax from the rest of us- well!?

The optics are not good, not least as a Melvyn Morris appeared to have donated to the Tories in 2017- albeit seems to be a one off and could be a different Melvyn Morris from Derbyshire. Unsurprisingly though, the political lobbying or calls are a thing. Beckett is Labour however,

Also what have the internal EFL Regulations which Derby signed up to got to do with her and other MPs- I understand the desperation but the shift the blame culture from a significant minority of Derby fans, leaves a real bad taste.

I also believe that the £8m out of £28m figure floated was no coincidence- because EFL regs state 25% minimum for unsecured creditors- if it went to court, I assume Derby/Quantuma would be seeking a cross class cram down which can be imposed upon classes of creditors, just above that threshold but not prohibitively so- and a hefty write-down all the same. If HMRC had accepted that or do accept that then other Unsecured Creditors would have to accept the same- Football Creditors aside- just enough to avoid the 15 pts next season?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I would like Derby to survive and I feel sympathy with a reasonable chunk of the fans but shit like this tempers it!

At a time where we are having to pay more in NI from April, HMRC will be looking for more tax from the rest of us- well!?

The optics are not good, not least as a Melvyn Morris appeared to have donated to the Tories in 2017- albeit seems to be a one off and could be a different Melvyn Morris from Derbyshire. Unsurprisingly though, the political lobbying or calls are a thing. Beckett is Labour however,

Also what have the internal EFL Regulations which Derby signed up to got to do with her and other MPs- I understand the desperation but the shift the blame culture from a significant minority of Derby fans, leaves a real bad taste.

I also believe that the £8m out of £28m figure floated was no coincidence- because EFL regs state 25% minimum for unsecured creditors- if it went to court, I assume Derby/Quantuma would be seeking a cross down cram down which can be imposed upon class of creditors, just above that threshold but not prohibitively so- and a hefty write-down all the same. If HMRC had accepted that or do accept that then other Unsecured Creditors would have to accept the same- Football Creditors aside- just enough to avoid the 15 pts next season?

Hmrc are classed as football Creditors now I thought, so have to be paid in full,

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14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Hmrc are classed as football Creditors now I thought, so have to be paid in full,

Not altogether sure on that one- @Hxj knows more than me on this so I'll defer to him! Sure a few others have greater knowledge too.

City are on soon so...will get back on it tomorrow or Monday probably.

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4 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Hmrc are classed as football Creditors now I thought

Nope - technically they are '2nd Preferential Creditors', they should be paid in full before any 'Unsecured Creditors'.  

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The Shear arrogance and blame shifting culture of all concerned with this bloody football club is as galling as it gets!

Their continual chase to recapture a perceived glorious past has constantly put them in financial problems over many years. However Mel Boy is the greatest of them all. Not declaring his accounts to the FA/EFL, Constant bickering and fighting over the rules, Not paying tax on players wages over an extended period, selling the ground  to the owner to the Football Club but never actually realizing the cash, the list is effing endless!

Yet whining ****  **** blame every one from the board of the EFL to @Mr Popodopolous for there god and sympathy forsaken plight! 
 

For the benefit of any Derby Fans reading this. Mel Morris Is To Blame! And No We All Pay Our Effing Taxes Derby County needs to also. If Derby Fans want to do something useful that other supporters can get behind perhaps think about any possible legal action that may be taken against Mel Bloody Morris!

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2 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

As a small business owner who has to jump through numerous hoops and have my integrity questioned if I so much as suggest I might not be able to pay my (relatively) small VAT bill on time I will be ******* livid if they get away with not having to pay HMRC in full.

Agree, they paid players to avoid further points deductions / embargo, whilst not paying the tax and NI.  £26m of it.  Mel Morris made that decision, now he's run away.  Why isn't the anger at him?

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12 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

The Shear arrogance and blame shifting culture of all concerned with this bloody football club is as galling as it gets!

Their continual chase to recapture a perceived glorious past has constantly put them in financial problems over many years. However Mel Boy is the greatest of them all. Not declaring his accounts to the FA/EFL, Constant bickering and fighting over the rules, Not paying tax on players wages over an extended period, selling the ground  to the owner to the Football Club but never actually realizing the cash, the list is effing endless!

Yet whining ****  **** blame every one from the board of the EFL to @Mr Popodopolous for there god and sympathy forsaken plight! 
 

For the benefit of any Derby Fans reading this. Mel Morris Is To Blame! And No We All Pay Our Effing Taxes Derby County needs to also. If Derby Fans want to do something useful that other supporters can get behind perhaps think about any possible legal action that may be taken against Mel Bloody Morris!

 

9 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

As a small business owner who has to jump through numerous hoops and have my integrity questioned if I so much as suggest I might not be able to pay my (relatively) small VAT bill on time I will be ******* livid if they get away with not having to pay HMRC in full.

 

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree, they paid players to avoid further points deductions / embargo, whilst not paying the tax and NI.  £26m of it.  Mel Morris made that decision, now he's run away.  Why isn't the anger at him?

They're trying to lobby MPs, make petitions etc. One of their highest earners got both today and their great run continues, have won a number of games with 1 or equal shots on target to goals- very clinical? 12 goals, 18 shots on target I think or 12 from 19- Bournemouth home to now.

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

 

They're trying to lobby MPs, make petitions etc. One of their highest earners got both today and their great run continues, have won a number of games with 1 or equal shots on target- very clinical?

Good for them. The players are really putting it in and we all have to appreciate that, but we all know that unless there is some kind of confirmed financing soon anyone who is any good will have to be sold and if that money is not actually in the pipeline the players are losing value by the minute. 
 

Mel Morris holds the key. If he picks up some of the debt personally, without prejudice, maybe they have a chance, but I don’t see it. He looks to me like he would rather watch them die than spend a penny from his own fortune. Makes you happy we have SL no matter whatever anyone says or thinks! 

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I notice a rather vocal and loud Derby fan complaining about some of the perceived injustices- AndrewD.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59918636

Very common name but wonder if D might stand for Delve? Surprised there was no looking at the audit company given the case and ruled against FRS 102.

Andrew Delve-Smith Cooper-Auditors of DCFC, unsure if they still are...and someone of the same name of the same company called James Delve is a passionate DCFC fan as per his entry on the auditors site?

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

 

They're trying to lobby MPs, make petitions etc. One of their highest earners got both today and their great run continues, have won a number of games with 1 or equal shots on target to goals- very clinical? 12 goals, 18 shots on target I think or 12 from 19- Bournemouth home to now.

Even if they were a top team you'd say that kind of clinical finishing is unsustainable.  

They're going down or going bust.

If they want to pester the receptionist at the EFL then go ahead. It'll get them nowhere.

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32 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Even if they were a top team you'd say that kind of clinical finishing is unsustainable.  

They're going down or going bust.

If they want to pester the receptionist at the EFL then go ahead. It'll get them nowhere.

I think they hope MPs will intervene, lobby HMRC and the EFL to cut Derby more slack, perhaps they claim that the EFL's current actions are ultra vires.

It is a bit yep.

Derby 3 Bournemouth 2. Derby? 3 shots on target, one of them a penalty.

Derby 1 West Brom 0. Derby? Were somewhat dominated but 1 shot on target and a win it is! Think there was a horrible goalkeeping error by WBA in there.

Derby 2 Sheffield United 0. Derby? 2 shots on target and great goals they were too.

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8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I would like Derby to survive and I feel sympathy with a reasonable chunk of the fans but shit like this tempers it!

At a time where we are having to pay more in NI from April, HMRC will be looking for more tax from the rest of us- well!?

The optics are not good, not least as a Melvyn Morris appeared to have donated to the Tories in 2017- albeit seems to be a one off and could be a different Melvyn Morris from Derbyshire. Unsurprisingly though, the political lobbying or calls are a thing. Beckett is Labour however,

Also what have the internal EFL Regulations which Derby signed up to got to do with her and other MPs- I understand the desperation but the shift the blame culture from a significant minority of Derby fans, leaves a real bad taste.

I also believe that the £8m out of £28m figure floated was no coincidence- because EFL regs state 25% minimum for unsecured creditors- if it went to court, I assume Derby/Quantuma would be seeking a cross class cram down which can be imposed upon classes of creditors, just above that threshold but not prohibitively so- and a hefty write-down all the same. If HMRC had accepted that or do accept that then other Unsecured Creditors would have to accept the same- Football Creditors aside- just enough to avoid the 15 pts next season?

Morris is described as being worth 500M. That maybe be debatable, and not include some Derby write offs. But that man is why HMRC is owed 23M and why in hell should he not be paying that debt. He will still have hundreds of millions even if the quoted wealth numbers are warped. It is disgusting . The Labour Mp should be talking to HMRC about chasing Morris down to pay his debts. That he can in fact afford to pay. 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think they hope MPs will intervene, lobby HMRC and the EFL to cut Derby more slack, perhaps they claim that the EFL's current actions are ultra vires.

It is a bit yep.

Derby 3 Bournemouth 2. Derby? 3 shots on target, one of them a penalty.

Derby 1 West Brom 0. Derby? Were somewhat dominated but 1 shot on target and a win it is! Think there was a horrible goalkeeping error by WBA in there.

Derby 2 Sheffield United 0. Derby? 2 shots on target and great goals they were too.

They are consistently outperforming their xG by a decent margin. It'll regress to what's expected - and they'll stop scoring.

Don't worry Pop, they're going down unless they go bust first.

MPs have **** all jurisdiction over HMRC or the EFL, neither of whom are doing anything illegal or "ultra vires."

Now, if there were an independent regulator established by Parliament in place...but we can but dream eh?

Edited by ExiledAjax
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1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Morris is described as being worth 500M. That maybe be debatable, and not include some Derby write offs. But that man is why HMRC is owed 23M and why in hell should he not be paying that debt. He will still have hundreds of millions even if the quoted wealth numbers are warped. It is disgusting . The Labour Mp should be talking to HMRC about chasing Morris down to pay his debts. That he can in fact afford to pay. 

That’s probably my biggest beef….threatened with points deductions for not paying the players, he takes the easy route - pays the players but not their tax and NI.  Imagine if HMRC came to Rooney or Lawrence for the missing tax and NI….sorry chaps, your employer hasn’t paid up, it’s yours to repay now.  Woukd feel a bit different wouldn’t it.  Now, I know that’s not the case, but it shows the contempt Morris has for doing things properly.

He’s allowed Derby to build these debts, he’s supposed to underwrite the losses…yet he doesn’t want to.  How does that work?  This is why there needs to be some “deposit” or “bond” before a club can rack up losses.

I think it’s disgusting.

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Surely the efl rules need to change to ensure that both the wages and associated PAYE, Employees NI and Employes Ni are paid each month to avoid sanctions. Currently late paid wages trigger sanctions but I don’t believe late payment of the amounts due to HMRC are included, at the level of championship wages this amount  would be roughly equal to the net wages payable to players each month 

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9 hours ago, martnewts said:

Surely the efl rules need to change

I think that Derby would have gone through some sort of sale, reorganisation or insolvency event before the end of the 2019/20 season due to the January 2020 insolvency action by HMRC if it had not been for the virus stopping all HMRC winding up procedures. It needs to be remembered that Derby went into Administration on 22 September 2021, HMRC were restarting insolvency actions on 1 October 2021, that is not a coincidence.

Oh and Regulation 17 is pretty thorough:

17           HMRC Reporting

17.1        Current HMRC Debt.  Any Club which has not within 28 (twenty-eight) days of the relevant Due Date paid to HMRC the amounts due to be paid to HMRC to discharge:

17.1.1    the Club’s full liability for PAYE & NIC due in respect of any and all employees or former employees of the Club for the immediately preceding payment period; and/or

17.1.2    the Club's full liability for PAYE & NIC which becomes due as a result of an assessment issued by HMRC, subject to clause 17.8 below,

(each a ‘Default Event’) shall report the Default Event to The League within 2 working days of the Default Event.

17.2        Reporting Default Events.  When a Club reports a Default Event to The League it shall at the same time provide to The League details of any and all amounts due to HMRC from the Club in respect of PAYE & NIC, together with the periods to which they relate.

17.3        Consequences of a Default Event.  Without prejudice to the general position (pursuant to Regulation 43.4) that all registrations must be approved by The League and subject to Regulation 17.3A, a Club which is subject to a Default Event shall be subject to a registration embargo such that it shall not be permitted to register any Player with that Club without the prior written consent of The League for the period that the Club is subject to a Default Event.

17.3A   Regulation 17.3 will not apply where a Club suffers a Default Event due to the failure to discharge a COVID PAYE Liability and has entered into a Time to Pay Agreement and is compliant with the terms of that Time To Pay Agreement. For the avoidance of doubt, where a Club defaults on the terms of a Time to Pay Agreement, and such default results in all outstanding amounts becoming due to HMRC immediately, the Club shall remain subject to a Default Event until such time as the outstanding amounts are paid or included within any other Time to Pay Agreement.

17.4        Failure to Notify a Default Event.  A Club which fails to report a Default Event shall be guilty of misconduct and shall be referred to a Disciplinary Commission in accordance with Section 7 of these Regulations.

17.5        Provision of Authority.  Each Club shall provide to The League, not later than 31 May prior to the commencement of a Season, (and in any event within seven days of any request for a further authority from The League), an original, irrevocable authority (which shall not be time constrained) in the form prescribed by The League and signed by a director and the company secretary of the Club, addressed to HMRC authorising HMRC to provide to The League information relating to amounts of PAYE & NIC payable, paid and overdue from the Club to HMRC from time to time including, by way of example and without limitation, the amount of Arrears (if any), the existence of and current position in respect of any Time to Pay Agreement and if a Club suffers a Default Event (‘Authority’).  The League shall be entitled to forward the Authority to HMRC without having to seek the consent of the Club. 

17.6        The Board shall have the power to suspend any Club which, not later than 31 May prior to the Commencement of the following Season (including, for the avoidance of doubt, those Clubs entering The League by way of promotion from the National League or relegation from the Premier League for the following Season) or within seven days of a request, fails to provide to The League the Authority in the required form.  A suspended Club shall not play in:

17.6.1    any League Match;

17.6.2    any Football Association Cup Match;

17.6.3    any EFL Cup Match;

17.6.4    any EFL Trophy Match; and/or

17.6.5    any other match conducted or controlled by The League and in which it would otherwise be eligible to compete.

17.7        For the purposes of the League Competition, the Board shall have the power to determine how the cancellation of a League Match caused by the suspension of one of the Clubs, which should have participated in it, shall be treated.

17.8        Disputed Amounts.  Any amounts which HMRC claims to be due to it, for example by way of an assessment, but which have been formally contested by the Club shall not be considered as due to HMRC for the purposes of this Regulation 17 until such time as a final determination is made on HMRC’s claim.

17.9        Information provided by a Club and/or HMRC in relation to any Arrears shall only be made available to senior members of The League’s staff and the independent Chairman (as described in Article 17.1.1) and shall not be disclosed to the Board generally, provided always that The League shall be entitled to report the happening of a Default Event to the Board for the purposes of enforcing Regulation 17.3 (Consequences of a Default Event).

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