Derby County

[Merrick's Marvels]

5 minutes ago, Yellow&Blue&Red said:

I do see that and it's a fair point, but I don't think I agree because Mel Morris isn't getting the punishment.

I agree which is why Mel Morris, and other owners responsible for sinking football clubs into the ground, are massive ucnts. Imo.

Morris will walk away. Derby County football club and their supporters will suffer. It stinks. 

Twas ever thus - when the rich and powerful ufck up, it's not the rich and powerful who suffer the consequences, by and large. Well, not rich and powerful men anyway. But that's a whole other discussion. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[Mr Popodopolous]

To echo what others have said.

I don't want Derby to go pop but otoh, them going bankrupt and having to work their way back from I dunno wherever the new Bury or Macclesfield started or AFC Wimbledon- that would send a very powerful message.

It would be moral hazard in action.

The above is mainly if they get 3/4 of the tax bill cut/waived.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[JackofromSanJavier]

Just had a kicker of a tax bill from UK HMRC today - I suspect that if I try to swerve it I'll be let off then!

[BTRFTG]

21 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Priorities set by law  

As I previously said, HMRC will make judgments on a case by case basis, so that they receive as much as they possibly can.

There is no bluff. Selling every registered player isn't going to raise the £37m needed to exceed the offer on the table. There are no assets to sell other than players and a few bits of silverware.

Then so be it. Marginal hit for HMRC, Morris still on hook to MSD, stadium nobody wants & Derby remembered not by my generation as a fine football club but by this and future generations as mickey taking cheats.

If you now claim zero relationship between Morris' beneficial interests I think HMRC lawyers should look into any personal guarantees directors made within accounts (published or not,) as from what you're arguing Derby FC should have been wound up years ago given they have been trading beyond their ability to repay debts.

[Hxj]

Latest update announced.

One month extension to proof of funds for the season.  Presumably February is funded by the sales to date.

Sounds bad,  No further offers and no preferred bidder.

Percy's tweet is interesting, suggests that HMRC are not rolling over at this time.

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Hxj

[chinapig]

3 hours ago, Hxj said:

Latest update announced.

One month extension to proof of funds for the season.  Presumably February is funded by the sales to date.

Sounds bad,  No further offers and no preferred bidder.

Percy's tweet is interesting, suggests that HMRC are not rolling over at this time.

 

Yet the BBC is still saying HMRC will accept considerably less than owed. I imagine this is being spun by the Administrators as I doubt it's coming direct from HMRC.

BBC News - Derby County: EFL extends deadline for administrators to provide proof of funding
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60146360

[Hxj]

4 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Yet the BBC is still saying HMRC will accept considerably less than owed.

The trouble is 'accepting considerably less than owed' is not the same as 'accepting that others can be paid out in preference to us, despite the statute'.

I am beginning to wonder if the real problem is that none of the deals work in the real world, but nobody wants to be responsible for pressing the liquidation button.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The trouble is 'accepting considerably less than owed' is not the same as 'accepting that others can be paid out in preference to us, despite the statute'.

I am beginning to wonder if the real problem is that none of the deals work in the real world, but nobody wants to be responsible for pressing the liquidation button.

Morris left them in the shit.  He bailed at a bad time, the worst time.

[Sleepy1968]

9 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The trouble is 'accepting considerably less than owed' is not the same as 'accepting that others can be paid out in preference to us, despite the statute'.

I am beginning to wonder if the real problem is that none of the deals work in the real world, but nobody wants to be responsible for pressing the liquidation button.

Can you give me the idiots guide to how liquidation follows on from administration? Who can apply to put the company into compusary winding up now? When can creditor's petition the court for a winding up order? How does it work?

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I saw a quote, that stupid MP is whining again. Pauline Latham reportedly said that the EFL 'aren't playing fair'.

She is I assume, Derbyshire's answer to Donald Trump.

Plus reportedly the administrators have blocked the departure of Tom Lawrence.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[sephjnr]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Plus reportedly the administrators have blocked the departure of Tom Lawrence.

So the admins are taking the piss, yes? The entire point of a fire sale is that they can't be picky on the money they get, yet somehow they're finding a way.

[Davefevs]

Quantuma will do well to get any football business after this if it all goes pear shaped.  In fact their whole business could suffer I guess.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

So the admins are taking the piss, yes? The entire point of a fire sale is that they can't be picky on the money they get, yet somehow they're finding a way.

It's not like any football administration I've seen before.

The first duty of administrators is to the creditors- is this being fulfilled?

They almost deserve to go bust because of how they're continuing in administration.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[P'head Red]

3 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

So the admins are taking the piss, yes? The entire point of a fire sale is that they can't be picky on the money they get, yet somehow they're finding a way.

Funny isn't it? They apparently block his departure, but can't (yet) prove they'll pay his wages after February?

Edited January 27, 2022 by P'head Red

[Hxj]

15 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

Can you give me the idiots guide to how liquidation follows on from administration? Who can apply to put the company into compusary winding up now? When can creditor's petition the court for a winding up order? How does it work?

Whilst Administrators are in place only they can put the company into liquidation.  They apply to the Court and can be appointed Liquidators as well. 

[Hxj]

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The first duty of administrators is to the creditors- is this being fulfilled?

I would say it was at the moment.  The club is clearly considerably more valuable with a decent first team squad, so whilst there are bidders sniffing around I would give the Administrators the benefit of the doubt until Sunday lunchtime.

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Hxj said:

I would say it was at the moment.  The club is clearly considerably more valuable with a decent first team squad, so whilst there are bidders sniffing around I would give the Administrators the benefit of the doubt until Sunday lunchtime.

My thoughts as well. If they think they can get more for Lawrence (or anyone else) on Monday than they can now, then they can fairly argue to hold onto him until then imo. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Marvin]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not like any football administration I've seen before.

The first duty of administrators is to the creditors- is this being fulfilled?

They almost deserve to go bust because of how they're continuing in administration.

No doubt a new phoenix administrator will rise in its place. 

[sephjnr]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not like any football administration I've seen before.

The first duty of administrators is to the creditors- is this being fulfilled?

They almost deserve to go bust because of how they're continuing in administration.

More to the point, who's in the position to sue the admins if it's seen that they're deliberately not taking money in to give to creditors? The club itself (thus, MM)? the HMRC?

Edited January 27, 2022 by sephjnr

[slartibartfast]

20 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

So the admins are taking the piss, yes? The entire point of a fire sale is that they can't be picky on the money they get, yet somehow they're finding a way.

It's the Derby way, it's what they do .

[AnotherDerbyFan]

10 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

More to the point, who's in the position to sue the admins if it's seen that they're deliberately not taking money in to give to creditors? The club itself (thus, MM)? the HMRC?

There is a common confusion that administration means a club MUST sell as many players as possible to cover the debt.

The role of administrators is to give as much money as possible to the creditors. As things stand, there are 3 bidders willing to take over (however, all with different conditions). As long as there are bidders willing to take over, the creditors will get more money by NOT selling all of the players. 

To get to a position where someone can be named PB, one of two things has to happen.

1. Mel covers some of the MSD loan
2. MFC/WWFC claims are dismissed/cancelled

[Midred]

52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's not like any football administration I've seen before.

The first duty of administrators is to the creditors- is this being fulfilled?

They almost deserve to go bust because of how they're continuing in administration.

Are their administraters as independant as their auditors?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I suppose there is the argument that a firesale wouldn't generate much for the creditors either.

When one compares it to Bury however, Derby are getting a fair bit of leeway?

[Midred]

6 minutes ago, Midred said:

Are their administraters as independant as their auditors?

Are they working for the benefit of the creditors or the club?

[Hxj]

12 minutes ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

As things stand, there are 3 bidders willing to take over

The impression given is that no one actually wants to bid enough to ensure that the club remains within the EFL at all, even taking the stadium out of the equation, let alone remaining with a 15 point penalty next season.

Given any post-Administration business plan and/or embargo imposed it will be really difficult to keep your senior squad together next season. particularly with the large number out of contract in the summer.  From my perspective it is beginning to look like a short sharp death now or a long lingering one over the next couple of seasons.  There are 10 or so ex-Premier League clubs in division 1 or below. Its not an easy place to get out of.

[Midred]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

The impression given is that no one actually wants to bid enough to ensure that the club remains within the EFL at all, even taking the stadium out of the equation, let alone remaining with a 15 point penalty next season.

Given any post-Administration business plan and/or embargo imposed it will be really difficult to keep your senior squad together next season. particularly with the large number out of contract in the summer.  From my perspective it is beginning to look like a short sharp death now or a long lingering one over the next couple of seasons.  There are 10 or so ex-Premier League clubs in division 1 or below. Its not an easy place to get out of.

With no parachute payments.

[Robin101]

Perhaps this is a terrible thing to say, but does no one else think that Derby fans might actually have quite a lot of fun following their club from Division 10 back to the football league? A phoenix Derby County would be playing at a decent level within a handful of seasons. 

I appreciate that there's people's jobs on the line, and the economic hit to the region would be significant. But from a purely footballing perspective?

[Midred]

3 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Perhaps this is a terrible thing to say, but does no one else think that Derby fans might actually have quite a lot of fun following their club from Division 10 back to the football league? A phoenix Derby County would be playing at a decent level within a handful of seasons. 

I appreciate that there's people's jobs on the line, and the economic hit to the region would be significant. But from a purely footballing perspective?

Penzance on a Tuesday night?

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, Midred said:

Are they working for the benefit of the creditors or the club?

I always thought that the first, possibly sole duty of administrators was to creditors but a few have suggested on here that indeed the current policy does serve their interests.

Another interesting snippet I read, Derby have a policy of not selling players to Nottingham Forest.

In normal times fair enough, but if it's the best or sole offer does this clash with duty to creditors?

I hope that both creditors and perhaps Nottingham Forest are watching developments closely.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[AnotherDerbyFan]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I suppose there is the argument that a firesale wouldn't generate much for the creditors either.

When one compares it to Bury however, Derby are getting a fair bit of leeway?

The difference between Derby and Bury is the number of people who have made their voices heard. Without the political pressure I'm certain the EFL would have been stricter in their approach.

10 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The impression given is that no one actually wants to bid enough to ensure that the club remains within the EFL at all, even taking the stadium out of the equation, let alone remaining with a 15 point penalty next season.

Given any post-Administration business plan and/or embargo imposed it will be really difficult to keep your senior squad together next season. particularly with the large number out of contract in the summer.  From my perspective it is beginning to look like a short sharp death now or a long lingering one over the next couple of seasons.  There are 10 or so ex-Premier League clubs in division 1 or below. Its not an easy place to get out of.

Bidder 1 - Asking price met, doesn't want to purchase the stadium, may or may not be willing to deal with the two claims

Bidder 2 - Asking price met including stadium, but MFC/WWFC claims need to be dealt with first

Bidder 3 - Mel and the Admins have to knock a bit off what they're asking

 

All 3 are willing to pay what is needed provided stadium or claims are out of the picture. 
If the claims are either dismissed or they're ruled as non-footballing creditors, a PB will be announced with them putting in enough to avoid the 15 point deduction.

I don't follow your line of thinking regarding the business plan making it difficult to keep the squad together. Other than Byrne, Bielik, Lawrence and Jozwiak, there aren't many who're on high wages even for L1 level. I can't see the busines plan preventing us from keeping most of them.  It's well known that most will be signing new deals as soon as the restrictions are lifted. If we manage to stay up, Lawrence will likely be staying too.
Despite the restrictions this season, Rooney was still able to pull a very good squad together and I have no doubt he'd do a better job in the upcoming summer.