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Clubs who have left Bristol City behind Since 2000... How ?


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3 hours ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

In my time I have incomprehensively Witnessed:

Wigan

Cardiff

Blackpool 

Swansea 

Bournemouth 

Sheffield United

Stoke

Reading

Hull

Brighton 

And now soon to be Brentford all bypass my "well run" football club to the premier League.

At different times over the last 20 years we have been a promotion rival or considered a dominant team in comparison to (Brighton, Blackpool, Brentford, Bournemouth).

Each season as a City fan we have been considered to have "Money" to splash in comparison to these clubs, we have never experienced financial issues and have at times over the last 20 years had the much better team in failed seasons.

Hard to pinpoint when our missed opportunity was but i go back to the Danny Wilson era.

Division 1 football with that team Tinnion, Murray, Doherty, Matt Hill, Danny Coles, Aaron Brown after 02/03 the correct buys with that foundation we should have been doing what Wigan did at least if potential was fulfilled.

The Gary Johnson promotion and play off final was just that "The Gary Johnson promotion and play off final" He got us promoted with mid table League 1 quality players and failed to refresh the squad at the right time as Keith Millen eluded to in the recent podcast.

I will always wonder what could of been if we had another manager but Wilson.

Is it all down to luck? or where would you say we have gone wrong?

Moved to a new stadium with Commercial Revenue etc well before we did, plus threw money at it in a time when there were no restrictions...less restrictions in the case of Brighton.

You also might have forgot to mention that Cardiff have either benefited from PL revenue or Parachute Payments between 2013/14 to last season...Hull also benefited Parachute Payments for some time. Think their period ran from 2008/09 to 2018/19 with either PL or Parachute Money.

Bournemouth- Simply threw money at it back in the days when you absolutely could, although were fan owned for a time.

Sheffield United- bigger club, plus had the aforementioned Revenue Streams and Infrastructure.

Stoke yes they were in 3rd tier in 2000 but a lot more years in the top 2 divisions, plus threw lots of cash at it and had the Infrastructure- Reading more prudent but similarities, save for the top 2 divisions bit.

Swansea had a unique way which worked brilliantly for them- from the end of Jackett but mainly the start of Martinez through to the final days of Laudrup- don't think Monk in the medium-long run was a great continuity for their ethos.

Blackpool- Built on a stable base and it just clicked under Hollowhead didn't it.

3 hours ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

Can add QPR to that list

Not really, higher in the Pecking Order than us in terms of overall time in the top 2 divisions- their stints in League One were quite short in the 200's- and again splashed when they could. Spent in 2010/11 then went back up losing £68m even with Parachute Payments and that FFP dispute that rolled on for years.

3 hours ago, 2015 said:

Add Burnley and Watford

Yes and no. Watford had more time in the top 2 divisions and never were in League One post 1998. Always a Championship with a bit of PL. Burnley moreso, but unlike us they struck when the Iron was hot- reached the semi finals in 2009 under Coyle, won the Playoffs the same season and Parachute Payments enabled them to go and go again, eventually building into a relatively secure PL club.

Burnley for example, have not been on 'Championship money' since 2008/09...either PL cash or in Receipt of Parachute Payments since then.

Forgot to add on Watford, in the early 2010's, their owner owned (still does) Udinese and had some kind of stake in Granada- they got cheap players from Udinese especially, Vydra a prime example.

3 hours ago, Redpool said:

Then the likes of Leicester, Norwich, Leeds and Wolves have been in League One and still have got back into the top flight during this period.

Bigger clubs. If well run, their chances of bouncing back greatly enhanced though I guess of those, we would have some similarities with Norwich?

Wolves also had the Fosun-Mendes-Nuno axis in 2017/18, Leeds- Bielsa great. Hopefully Pearson can replicate some of what he achieved at Leicester here, though they might have breached FFP in 2014- think there was an eventual EFL Settlement.

Norwich also as well as being excellently run- Webber and Farke did some excellent work- also had the benefit of PL money or Parachute Payments from 2011/12 to 2017/18, big sales- yes they were well run but this absolutely helped. Then 2019/20 PL cash, season just gone Parachutes again- bounce back, easy. In short, for the last 10 seasons, Parachute Payments or PL cash for all but one.

55 minutes ago, Born and Red in 82 said:

Huddersfield 

What is their ratio in the 2nd tier compared to us? Yes they surged a bit, struck when iron was hot I guess- decent financial platform + Wagner Contacts=a run to the Playoffs which they won.

Not saying these are the sole reasons, at all but definitely these are factors at play.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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44 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

Well last time it took us something like 78 years to bounce back to the top flight.

Based on that form, we only have to wait another 30 odd years for our next return.

Hope springs eternal!

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1 hour ago, grifty said:

That's the definition of OK then? Not good, not bad.

We were in far greater danger of being relegated in Johnson's first full season than we were when Cotts. was booted out.

It wasn't OK, it was bloody awful, and only a stubborn owner determined not to part with his pet project - even if City were relegated - kept LJ in a job. 

 

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4 hours ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

In my time I have incomprehensively Witnessed:

Wigan

Cardiff

Blackpool 

Swansea 

Bournemouth 

Sheffield United

Stoke

Reading

Hull

Brighton 

And now soon to be Brentford all bypass my "well run" football club to the premier League.

At different times over the last 20 years we have been a promotion rival or considered a dominant team in comparison to (Brighton, Blackpool, Brentford, Bournemouth).

Each season as a City fan we have been considered to have "Money" to splash in comparison to these clubs, we have never experienced financial issues and have at times over the last 20 years had the much better team in failed seasons.

Hard to pinpoint when our missed opportunity was but i go back to the Danny Wilson era.

Division 1 football with that team Tinnion, Murray, Doherty, Matt Hill, Danny Coles, Aaron Brown after 02/03 the correct buys with that foundation we should have been doing what Wigan did at least if potential was fulfilled.

The Gary Johnson promotion and play off final was just that "The Gary Johnson promotion and play off final" He got us promoted with mid table League 1 quality players and failed to refresh the squad at the right time as Keith Millen eluded to in the recent podcast.

I will always wonder what could of been if we had another manager but Wilson.

Is it all down to luck? or where would you say we have gone wrong?

Simple really. 
Easy culture. Nice place to live. Earn decent money. Club is too soft ( possibly changing wiv Nige in charge now ), including SL being too soft. 
All this nice human bollox does my head in. Pro sport is ruthless and cut throat yet we have a soft culture and therefore dont succeed as such. 
Hopefully Nige will sort us!

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44 minutes ago, onlyotib said:

Portsmouth have been in the prem and won a fa cup. You could add Fulham to that aswel apart from fa cup

Al Fayed threw a shitload (for the standards of the time) at them, we did not do this in that period.

Money is no guarantee of course- but they appointed the right people and signed the right players too.

Portsmouth again have been in the top 2 divisions for longer though not exclusively. Mandaric spent some, Redknapp was the man, originally DoF. Struck when the iron was hot is a common theme.

Fulham- forgot to add, they also reached the UEFA Cup final, beating some quite big sides along the way in 2010.

48 minutes ago, nickolas said:

Simple really. 
Easy culture. Nice place to live. Earn decent money. Club is too soft ( possibly changing wiv Nige in charge now ), including SL being too soft. 
All this nice human bollox does my head in. Pro sport is ruthless and cut throat yet we have a soft culture and therefore dont succeed as such. 
Hopefully Nige will sort us!

Some truth to that, but then again I wonder how modern players will take to a hardline approach. Not that I don't fully back Pearson of course, and yes Nice place to live, nice surrounding areas, good facilities plus decent money- this can all reduce the hunger for sure.

Hopefully things will now improve for the better in many areas.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Al Fayed threw a shitload (for the standards of the time) at them, we did not do this in that period.

Money is no guarantee of course- but they appointed the right people and signed the right players too.

Portsmouth again have been in the top 2 divisions for longer though not exclusively. Mandaric spent some, Redknapp was the man, originally DoF. Struck when the iron was hot is a common theme.

Fulham- forgot to add, they also reached the UEFA Cup final, beating some quite big sides along the way in 2010.

Some truth to that, but then again I wonder how modern players will take to a hardline approach. Not that I don't fully back Pearson of course, and yes Nice place to live, nice surrounding areas, good facilities plus decent money- this can all reduce the hunger for sure.

Hopefully things will now improve for the better in many areas.

I think the hardline tactics work for a while ( Gary Johnson for example ) but wonder how modern day softy footballers will cope with it over a prolonged period. 
I guess we will find out!

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Al Fayed threw a shitload (for the standards of the time) at them, we did not do this in that period.

Money is no guarantee of course- but they appointed the right people and signed the right players too.

Portsmouth again have been in the top 2 divisions for longer though not exclusively. Mandaric spent some, Redknapp was the man, originally DoF. Struck when the iron was hot is a common theme.

Fulham- forgot to add, they also reached the UEFA Cup final, beating some quite big sides along the way in 2010.

Some truth to that, but then again I wonder how modern players will take to a hardline approach. Not that I don't fully back Pearson of course, and yes Nice place to live, nice surrounding areas, good facilities plus decent money- this can all reduce the hunger for sure.

Hopefully things will now improve for the better in many areas.

Yeah I agree with everything you say but when you consider the size of the club and location are they any bigger than us really. 

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3 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

Well last time it took us something like 78 years to bounce back to the top flight.

Based on that form, we only have to wait another 30 odd years for our next return.

A bit of good news... I think it was only about 65 years so only about 24 years to go!

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29 minutes ago, nickolas said:

I think the hardline tactics work for a while ( Gary Johnson for example ) but wonder how modern day softy footballers will cope with it over a prolonged period. 
I guess we will find out!

It is a very valid point but, I suspect our Nige will have had some serious checks done on anyone he signs.

Checks in the sense that they will have a strong work ethic and a real desire to win games.

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9 hours ago, 054123 said:

I think the point is that the list of clubs in the op would be considered our peers. 

How have they managed to reach the summit at various points over the last 20 years and we haven’t?

How have Norwich done it seven times since 1970 and we have managed it once?

Luck or good club management plus a consistent production of youth to league standard. We even bought one of their youth in 1974 to help us do it in 1976!

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10 hours ago, lukebcfc1989 said:

Hard to pinpoint when our missed opportunity was but i go back to the Danny Wilson era.
 

For me the 'sliding doors' moment was not getting Andre Gray / Marcus Gayle & Harry Maguire signings over the line in Summer 2015. If we'd just kept some of that momentum of promotion going for a year or two...

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9 hours ago, Sturny said:

Not many people accept this, but we are where we are because of our owner. Which is good AND bad, depends what ambition you want from your club. 

It feels like we are stuck in 2nd/3rd gear, not going slow, but not terribly fast either. And before someone flies off their bike at me about for saying something negative about SL, I'm grateful he's our owner. 

Fully agree that the club's status reflects the owner. Being owned by the richest local lad who loves our football club, has invested massively into our infrastructure and is trying to develop us into a Premiership ready team in a sustainable way, is far more appealing to me than the alternative.

In fact, what is the alternative? US / Middle East / Far East money coming in from folks whose agendas and objectives are likely to be far more divergent from the average fan than Steve Lansdown. Is Lansdown perfect? No. Is he massively undervalued by the fanbase? Most certainly. I'm a massive optimist but whenever Steve moves on I'd put my money on the club going backwards instead of forwards in whatever new hands the club finds itself in.

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All good intentions by Steve Lansdown, 100%> always striving to improve. 

There are no 'what could have beens' though really. What could have been had Cotterill not fallen out with SL as many have suggested. A sudden fall from grace perhaps through lack of backing and an incompetent negotiation team.

City seem to have suffered quite a bit through poor coaching as well as back room staff selection. And more often that not both groups of people not getting along well enough.

Why did GJ not strengthen, why did Cotterill not strengthen, why were novices appointed too often? To appease the soul that paid out again for a failed and expensive manager?

When we can barely comprehend how it hurts in the pocket you cannot fully understand the reasoning behind some very bizarre decisions.

Memory fades over time so making a pointed criticism that we can all relate to is of course this most recent era. Ashton came with very mixed reviews, I think would be putting it kindly. Lee J came with no promotions on his CV. 

Those two decisions, even on paper, were poor errors of judgement in my humble opinion and I recall a large number of us on here opined the very same. Then followed a catalogue of poor decision but made by Ashton in the name of many of the people who have now gone with him to Ipswich. The ability to keep players fit or rush them back created a terrible strain on the squad. In fact so bad did it become that Jon Lansdown ushered in approval for a bunch of over 30 signings. A sort of desperate attempt to paper over the enormous cracks. This last 5 years is where the wheels came decidedly off. 

We have to look forward now and hope that what Steve Cotterill was to League 1 Nigel Pearson will be to the Championship and perhaps beyond.

In the event the club fail again then reflecting back on that list from OP Luke makes for rather uninspiring reading. City are or should be a bigger club than all of them. 

Edited by havanatopia
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On 26/05/2021 at 15:00, grifty said:

100% agree. There is an obsession with copying other clubs and watching what other clubs do. The love in with Brentford and copying them. It's now moved to Barnsley, Norwich, Bournemouth, etc.

Our owner has his sights on the way HE wants the club to be run and how to progress. He doesn't want to throw money at big name signings/wages (not that FFP particularly allows that now). Ideally I think he wanted to uncover the next Eddie Howe type manager in LJ and gave him a chance, which for the first 2 years was going OK, then as it didn't progress as far as it should tried to support, but it didn't work.

He wants focus on buying players 'cheap', developing them and using their performances to propel us up the table and then sell for £X more than we bought them for, re-invest and do the process again. When the time comes that we have a team that looks like it will challenge for promotion, you'll see we won't sell these players and will give it a go.

Other clubs have different ways of improving; Norwich use their academy (Godfrey, Cantwell, Aarons) and supplement this with cheap foreign talent (Steipermann, Zimmermann, Pukki) and a couple of marque signings (Buendia, Krul, Gibson).

Bournemouth went crazy with wages in their promotion season but had a very solid squad that they'd accumulated over a number of years with players like Francis, Cook, Surman, Arter, Pitman

Barnsley have gone the hardworking team with a tactically astute manager that the players have bought into. The football isn't great, but they grind out results at unlikely places.

It may take 10 years, it may take 2, but our 'slow and steady' attitude suits me down to the ground rather than risking becoming a Bolton, Wigan, Portsmouth, Bradford, Charlton, etc to enjoy 1 or 2 seasons in the prem and then 10/15 years recovering.

I guess “HE “ displayed this mantra signing David James, Nicky Hunt and Damion Stewart over Steve Coppells head 🤷‍♂️ ...

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On 26/05/2021 at 20:14, onlyotib said:

Yeah I agree with everything you say but when you consider the size of the club and location are they any bigger than us really. 

Fair point. Do you mean Fulham or Portsmouth- maybe both.

In a way no. Like I said though, striking while the iron is hot is important. Had we done so in the early 2000's/late 1990's onwards by splurging we may have gone to the PL. Or perhaps even more likely, had we spent BIG in January 2008- when we were 2nd or in the top 6, £10-20m especially with no FFP around- why didn't we? We might have gone up, or failing that put a side in place with very strong foundations for 2008/09 and maybe even 2009/10. SL was easily wealthy enough to cover it.

It has been argued about 2017/18, FFP was of course a consideration a decade on so we perhaps had to be creative in the market- we should've made top 6 that season though,  IMO. Not necessarily top 2 but definitely playoffs and with all our recent Cup experience, we surely would have been very well placed for what would in effect have been 3 Cup finals.

We would have had players who:

  1. Won a feisty and temperamental let's say- okay JPT early rounds- vs Bristol Rovers..19k, small competition but big intensity!
  2. Earlier month, despite appalling League form, we beat Palace at AG- newly promoted to PL, good win albeit tiny crowd.
  3. Following season we won the JPT and we reached Round 4 of FA Cup- West Ham, we were unlucky to lose. This JPT included a trip to Wembley- vital experience again.
  4. Okay little in the Cups that year except for a draw at WBA in the Cup- a draw we should've won, big away following.
  5. 4th Round of Carling Cup and 4th Round of FA Cup- Hull at home vs a PL side, winning at Fulham- almost like a playoff tie eh?
  6. The excellent semi final Cup run! Including a 2 legger v Man City and beating 4 PL sides. What invaluable experience for playoffs?

Oh and Brownhill himself, won JPT with Barnsley, combined with playoffs.

Decent numbers of those players were still here in 2017/18.

That's what I mean by seizing the moment, striking while the iron is hot. 2017/18 could have been perfect on many levels in terms of if we had made the playoffs, we have a terrible track record in them but all the above...would have given us perhaps our best chance ever at winning them!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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On 26/05/2021 at 17:19, Alan Dicks said:

Well last time it took us something like 78 years to bounce back to the top flight.

Based on that form, we only have to wait another 30 odd years for our next return.

Thanks for cheering me up.

More than a good chance I will be brown bread by then. :crying:

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As @MrPopodopolous has alluded to many of the clubs took a gamble before FFP by chucking money at it, which you can no longer do (unless you are villa and go up). The problem is, it is now harder than ever for most teams to go up, when you are playing in a rigged competition. Parachute payments mean that generally 2 ex prem clubs with payments go up each year, leaving 1 spot for the rest of us.

I don't understand as clubs and football fans should accept such a false corrupt competition

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17 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

As @MrPopodopolous has alluded to many of the clubs took a gamble before FFP by chucking money at it, which you can no longer do (unless you are villa and go up). The problem is, it is now harder than ever for most teams to go up, when you are playing in a rigged competition. Parachute payments mean that generally 2 ex prem clubs with payments go up each year, leaving 1 spot for the rest of us.

I don't understand as clubs and football fans should accept such a false corrupt competition

The EFL wants an end to parachute payments but I fully expect the fan led review (the review with only one fan representative) to side with the Premier League.

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52 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The EFL wants an end to parachute payments but I fully expect the fan led review (the review with only one fan representative) to side with the Premier League.

Same old prem looking after itself and paying lip service to being interested in anyone else

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I don't think you need to end Parachute Payments as such- I see both sides of the debate. In short, my proposed solution is that- as sides in receipt of PP surely don't get Solidarity Payments too- that would be absurd if so here is a starting point...

  1. Club relegated- instantly onto EFL money + Solidarity Payments in terms of income/Profit and Loss Account.
  2. The bulk- which in this case equals the remainder, ie PP-SP=PL.
  3. By PL I mean Parachute Loans. Interest free but no problem with them being used to clear debt, to prevent admin- stop creditors being stiffed by big spending and then running out of cash but the Parachute Money which is there after the Solidarity Payments have been equalled goes to clubs in the form of loans.
  4. This would drastically reduce their Profit and Loss and unless they come down in an extremely strong financial position, would necessitate quicker cost cutting for reasons of FFP- thereby helping clubs avoid immediate ruin but precluding them from strengthening off the back of Parachute Payments- indeed quicker cost cutting would be the order of the day as the FFP pressures would come on perhaps in Year 1, rather than 2, 3 or beyond. Loans and the like from owners are unlimited in any case and don't affect FFP, save for interest repayments or if refinancing helps to reduce these.

Happy for any critiques, further additions etc but I feel that this starting point could significantly ease the situation- and with it the competitive balance problem.

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On 26/05/2021 at 13:53, lukebcfc1989 said:

In my time I have incomprehensively Witnessed:

Wigan

Cardiff

Blackpool 

Swansea 

Bournemouth 

Sheffield United

Stoke

Reading

Hull

Brighton 

And now soon to be Brentford all bypass my "well run" football club to the premier League.

At different times over the last 20 years we have been a promotion rival or considered a dominant team in comparison to (Brighton, Blackpool, Brentford, Bournemouth).

Each season as a City fan we have been considered to have "Money" to splash in comparison to these clubs, we have never experienced financial issues and have at times over the last 20 years had the much better team in failed seasons.

Hard to pinpoint when our missed opportunity was but i go back to the Danny Wilson era.

Division 1 football with that team Tinnion, Murray, Doherty, Matt Hill, Danny Coles, Aaron Brown after 02/03 the correct buys with that foundation we should have been doing what Wigan did at least if potential was fulfilled.

The Gary Johnson promotion and play off final was just that "The Gary Johnson promotion and play off final" He got us promoted with mid table League 1 quality players and failed to refresh the squad at the right time as Keith Millen eluded to in the recent podcast.

I will always wonder what could of been if we had another manager but Wilson.

Is it all down to luck? or where would you say we have gone wrong?

When we were getting dicked at Wembley in the Championship Play Off Final in 2008 - it’s worth noting that Southampton FC finished in 20th position in the Championship that season and Leicester City FC was relegated that season into league one  - look at those two clubs now! ... and at the end of that season we also finished well above clubs like Norwich, Burnley, Wolves, Watford and Crystal Palace ... we just couldn’t build on it - those clubs just flew up the football pyramid and we didn’t and it’s such a shame ...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
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29 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

When we were getting dicked at Wembley in the Championship Play Off Final in 2008 - it’s worth noting that Southampton FC finished in 20th position in the Championship that season and Leicester City FC was relegated that season into league one  - look at those two clubs now! ... and at the end of that season we also finished well above clubs like Norwich, Burnley, Wolves, Watford and Crystal Palace ... we just couldn’t build on it - those clubs just flew up the football pyramid and we didn’t and it’s such a shame ...

Couldn't build, nor could we seize the moment when it came- ie in 2007/08 itself, a big splurge in Jan 2008 could have set us on a very different trajectory. Ironic coming from me and all I say about football Finances but there was no such thing then.

No guarantees of course that the Trajectory could have set us in the medium to long run on a better path, see Bradford, Oldham, Portsmouth to name 3- for a while Coventry too, but we might have had some time as a yoyo or a top flight club but it could all have gone horribly wrong too in the following years.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 hours ago, Shaun Taylor said:

Fast forward to the present time where do you think you should be and what club would be the benchmark considering everything is in place for success

To have had a go in the top flight for me! Not that I agree with the Parachute scheme but having them means we could compete better.

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20 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

To have had a go in the top flight for me! Not that I agree with the Parachute scheme but having them means we could compete better.

I would say if you can get in the premiership Southampton would be a good benchmark considering the size of Bristol and the money you have behind you 

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I suppose if Social Media had existed back in the 70's there would have been many fans of other teams asking the same question about us. Some of the teams mentioned in the original post have had their moment in the sun and are now back with us, others are even floundering somewhere below us, so I guess just getting there is achievement rnough for some.

Yes Brentford have got there now, it took them 75 years, it took us 65 last time. Hopefully it will be 45 or less years before we go back.

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On 26/05/2021 at 14:15, bcfcshorey said:

You think about the issues that the likes of Blackpool, Wigan and Hull have had mostly stemming from their stint in the Premier League and I'd much rather be in our situation.
Also in the same period teams such as Charlton, Sunderland, Portsmouth, Bolton, Bradford have gone the other way and leap frogged us downwards, all part of football. We've probably had more stability than a lot of other clubs, which some see as stagnation.

Of course we don't want to experience the issues that other clubs have in terms of a decline, but not sure about "much rather be in our situation". I doubt many of the teams you've mentioned would want to trade their recent history for ours. Would Wigan want to swap their last 10 years, featuring an FA cup win, for our stability and building of infrastructure? Probably not. 

Of course the stability and infrastructure is great, but that's because it should help us to achieve (e.g. play prem football and compete for trophies). 

On 26/05/2021 at 14:57, Red white and red said:

Yeah I agree with you. In my opinion, the general notion on here is ‘Bristol City are a big club and deserve to be in the premiership’. Why? What have Bristol city done to deserve a space in the premiership? We aren’t a big club and we have not shown anywhere near enough guts. Far too cosy and comfortable to go up.

It's not so much that we deserve to be in the Premier League - it's more that we comfortably have the potential to be. We're the biggest team in the 6th biggest city in the country. Look at our finances, fanbase, facilities etc compared to some of the other clubs who have achieved more than us. IMO, their relative lack of resources make them "smaller" clubs. 

Really important to understand this:

Other clubs have not achieved more than us because they're "bigger". Other clubs are considered "bigger" because they've achieved more than us.

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