No knee

[TRUEBRIT66]

15 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

Taking the knee is not owned by any BLM organisation and predates them all.

The players have told us, repeatedly, why they are doing it.

What more do you need?

Do the BLM movement not take the knee ? The taking of the knee is and always will always be associated with BLM the same as other salutes are associated to other organisations and to argue otherwise would be futile. 

And I don't need anything thank you, I was responding to a question from rich.     

[SecretSam]

MODS: bung this in the "Politics" section, pls, like you did to main about England fans

[BS2 Red]

14 minutes ago, TheReds said:

No of course it isn't owned by them, but the players started doing it over here because of them.

People/media then decided to (probably felt like they had to really) change the narrative when more and more people started to distance themselves from the Organisation, after actually being told or reading what their objectives were, and taking the knee then suddenly became "it isn't anything to do with the Organisation". The "political" tag it now has will never be eroded.

There needs to be some sort of new slogan that will NOT be associated with BLM the Organisation. In my opinion, if there was something new, and players then were taking the knee then there wouldn't be anywhere near the amount of division there is now.

Taking the knee predates the BLM organisation.

Black lives matter as a phrase predates any BLM organisations (there are loads of them).

The players have said they are not doing it due political reasons.

How many more times does all this have to be said?

14 minutes ago, TRUEBRIT66 said:

Do the BLM movement not take the knee ? The taking of the knee is and always will always be associated with BLM the same as other salutes are associated to other organisations and to argue otherwise would be futile. 

And I don't need anything thank you, I was responding to a question from rich.     

So if a BLM organisation takes the knee, nobody else can do it without being associated with a BLM group?

Are you sure that's the way you want to go with these things? Because there are all sorts of gestures, phrases and logos that we can link with groups you'd disagree with.....

[TheReds]

7 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

Taking the knee predates the BLM organisation.

Black lives matter as a phrase predates any BLM organisations (there are loads of them).

The players have said they are not doing it due political reasons.

How many more times does all this have to be said?

So if a BLM organisation takes the knee, nobody else can do it without being associated with a BLM group?

Are you sure that's the way you want to go with these things? Because there are all sorts of gestures, phrases and logos that we can link with groups you'd disagree with.....

I never said it didn't predate the Organisation, I said they started doing it here BECAUSE of the Organisation. Regardless of what they/you are saying now, that is why it started here.

 

[TRUEBRIT66]

3 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

 

So if a BLM organisation takes the knee, nobody else can do it without being associated with a BLM group?

Are you sure that's the way you want to go with these things? Because there are all sorts of gestures, phrases and logos that we can link with groups you'd disagree with.....

No I didn't say that, but if I stuck a arm in the air with my fist pumped you would associate it with black power or stuck my arm out straight out and palm down..........well you no what I mean.

I didn't come here to argue like I said responded to Rich with a opinion, all the best BS2 Red         

[RedRock]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

The bit in bold is where I am really getting fed up of the morality police in this country getting permanently outraged and telling everyone what to think all the time.

I have, unsurprisingly, never been into an Oxford University common room but it strikes me as eminently sensible that the students can have the art they want, and not have the art that they do not want. They live in a free country so of course they can. If they don't want a portrait of the Queen, they can not have a portrait of the Queen. To any sensible person, the response to that is "so what? The artwork in a room I'm never going to go in has no impact on me whatsoever".

Unfortunately the morality police who like to tell everyone what to think appear not to be sensible and appear to feel it is their right to whine and get outraged about a piece of artwork being removed from a room they are not going to go in. Yet again, the permanently offended - who get offended by people dancing on talent shows, songs not being sung  at the Proms or footballers kneeling down - find another reason to get offended and impose their morality on everyone else.

I seriously wonder how anyone who gets upset when a painting of the Queen gets removed from a room they are not going to go in has the robustness to cope with the challenges of daily life. I also wonder if they're going to start to tell me what art I am and am not allowed in my lounge too. They certainly don't support freedom of choice.

Perhaps you are right that we don't need footballers to take the knee. But we also don't need them to not take the knee just because some people who get unfathomably upset and outraged about everything get unfathomably upset and outraged about a footballers have a knee on the grass.

I am sick of the self-appointed morality police thinking they can dictate what everyone else does all the time. If someone wants to take down a portrait of the Queen from a private space, they can take down that portrait. If a footballer wants to take the knee, they can take the knee. In both cases - whether I agree or disagree - it is utterly irrelevant as it has no impact on my life. People need to stop whining, stop getting offended and stop trying to dictate how everyone else lives their life. 

Think we’ve moved into the ‘cancel culture’ age. A generation that hasn’t been challenged on its views and now believes it’s 100% correct in everything it says and those with a different view are 100% wrong. As ever an action causes a reaction. So we’re moving towards extreme communism or nationalism whichever is your political standpoint and for which there seems very little difference in approach in the two extremes to the control of a society.
 

Need for education not symbolism for me. Educate, educate, educate based on the principle that Society respects all that positively contributes to the common good.

 

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

It really is simple.

The players have explained why they are taking the knee. That is why they are taking the knee.

The players have explained what they intend taking the knee to symbolise. That is what them taking the knee symbolises.

Anyone who boos players taking the knee does so in the knowledge that the players have explained what they are doing and why, and by doing so states that they oppose the players stated intention. 

It really is that simple. The political sideshow is just that. 

This part isn't correct, it's like claiming that James MacLean doesn't wear the poppy because he opposes paying respect to fallen soldiers(to use BS2reds favourite example). It's more nuanced than that and you know it.

[BS2 Red]

10 minutes ago, TheReds said:

I never said it didn't predate the Organisation, I said they started doing it here BECAUSE of the Organisation. Regardless of what they/you are saying now, that is why it started here.

 

No they didn't do it because of the organisation (which one are you talking about, there are loads of BLM groups).

Taking the knee started in sport before either the phrase black lives matter or any organisations that name themselves BLM.

Black lives matter (the phrase) predates any organisation that uses it (there are loads).

Footballers starting doing it as part of the anti-racist demonstrations last year. They didn't do it because of any organisation.

The footballers themselves have told us all why they are doing it.

Why is this so hard to understand?

[shepton red]

It’s comical how people roll out that BLM is a Marxist organisation.  How many people on this forum, or across the football family, understand Marxist theology?? I certainly don’t, however, I do know that the UK press roll out this label for many left of centre political ideals.  

Can we please agree that the historical injustices against people from the black community are real and that all people should have an equal opportunity in life to achieve what they can to the best of their ability.

In football this means that black people should have a representation across the senior management and administration of our game that is reflective of society and perhaps as a reflection of the numbers of black players in the English game; 25%. 

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, shepton red said:

It’s comical how people roll out that BLM is a Marxist organisation.  How many people on this forum, or across the football family, understand Marxist theology?? I certainly don’t, however, I do know that the UK press roll out this label for many left of centre political ideals.  

Can we please agree that the historical injustices against people from the black community are real and that all people should have an equal opportunity in life to achieve what they can to the best of their ability.

In football this means that black people should have a representation across the senior management and administration of our game that is reflective of society and perhaps as a reflection of the numbers of black players in the English game; 25%. 

Can you identify posts in this thread that state differently?  

 

 

[TRUEBRIT66]

18 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

No they didn't do it because of the organisation (which one are you talking about, there are loads of BLM groups).

Taking the knee started in sport before either the phrase black lives matter or any organisations that name themselves BLM.

Black lives matter (the phrase) predates any organisation that uses it (there are loads).

Footballers starting doing it as part of the anti-racist demonstrations last year. They didn't do it because of any organisation.

The footballers themselves have told us all why they are doing it.

Why is this so hard to understand?

A good article in the spectator, I dont expect you to agree or even wish to debate I just thought it was a decent read.

What the England team doesn’t get about ‘taking the knee’ | The Spectator

 

[BS2 Red]

5 minutes ago, TRUEBRIT66 said:

A good article in the spectator, I dont expect you to agree or even wish to debate I just thought it was a decent read.

What the England team doesn’t get about ‘taking the knee’ | The Spectator

 

There are plenty of problems with that article. It assumes the writer knows more about the intentions than the players themselves for instance.

I just can't be arsed to argue anymore, believe whatever you want. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

I personally think that the 'taking the knee' has lost it's impact and now only provokes heated debates about whether it should be done or not, rather than promote racial harmony and equality.

Having said that, if people want to take the knee then fine, do it. I won't boo them for it - even though I think it's now a bit pointless, it's their choice and after all; we are a tolerant society that allows people to express things like that unmolested. 

Whether is should be ALLOWED at an international tournament is another debate - I recall not that long ago England were fined for wearing a poppy to the memory of all the servicemen and women who died in conflicts since WW1, because the poppy was deemed to be a 'political' symbol. Isn't 'taking the knee' a political gesture??? Why would the poppy be banned and the knee gesturing allowed? 
 

 

 

[TRUEBRIT66]

5 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

A xenophobic article relating to British Stoicism and imperialism (slavery says hi) around this matter and that we should ignore what the people who are actually doing it say they are doing it for. Is not a good read for me. 

Just cements our actually desecent back into far right based nationalism and scapegoating minorities. 

Apparently everyone forgot the descent into world war 2, yet here we are, repeating it almost literally. 

 

Thats very deep, I just saw a article explaining why he believes the fans booed  

[TheReds]

8 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

No they didn't do it because of the organisation (which one are you talking about, there are loads of BLM groups).

Taking the knee started in sport before either the phrase black lives matter or any organisations that name themselves BLM.

Black lives matter (the phrase) predates any organisation that uses it (there are loads).

Footballers starting doing it as part of the anti-racist demonstrations last year. They didn't do it because of any organisation.

The footballers themselves have told us all why they are doing it.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I don't know why you keep saying it predated etc etc, I know that.

Why didn't Lyle Taylor get corrected about what he said about taking the knee if it isn't anything to do with the organisation? Les Ferdinand associated it with the BLM movement, the BBC has said it started because of the BLM movement and George Floyd killing - and I would guess the majority of fans see it exactly as that. Surely the media, EFL, EPL would have made it abundantly clear wouldn't they if they were nothing to do with that and it was purely racial equality at the time (something that they are keen to say now after looking into BLM the Political movement with people moving away from it)?  That then started protests from BLM all over the World causing violence, vandalism etc etc.

The message now may well be that it is nothing to do with Politics or that movement, but it's too late for that to wash with many supporters imo. It needs a full reset/change.

[Cowshed]

7 minutes ago, TRUEBRIT66 said:

Thats very deep, I just saw a article explaining why he believes the fans booed  

No, Gareth Southgate, ‘taking the knee’ is not a protest against injustice - spiked (spiked-online.com)

The poster would attempt to link this one to Himmler.

[BS2 Red]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

I don't know why you keep saying it predated etc etc, I know that.

Why didn't Lyle Taylor get corrected about what he said about taking the knee if it isn't anything to do with the organisation? Les Ferdinand associated it with the BLM movement, the BBC has said it started because of the BLM movement and George Floyd killing - and I would guess the majority of fans see it exactly as that. Surely the media, EFL, EPL would have made it abundantly clear wouldn't they if they were nothing to do with that and it was purely racial equality at the time (something that they are keen to say now after looking into BLM the Political movement with people moving away from it)?  That then started protests from BLM all over the World causing violence, vandalism etc etc.

The message now may well be that it is nothing to do with Politics or that movement, but it's too late for that to wash with many supporters imo. It needs a full reset/change.

The only relevant question is what do the players/manager say they are doing it for?

Anything else is just somebody else's opinion. It's not up to you, Les Ferdinand, the BBC or "the fans" (it's only a small proportion of fans booing) to tell the England players why they are doing it.

I'm out of this thread now. It's just nothing but going around in circles.

[MarcusX]

24 minutes ago, TRUEBRIT66 said:

A good article in the spectator, I dont expect you to agree or even wish to debate I just thought it was a decent read.

What the England team doesn’t get about ‘taking the knee’ | The Spectator

 

That article conveniently ignores that NFL teams did the arm linking as well in 2017, so that's an "Americanism" too.

I do agree on the concept that where/how does it end? It's in a predicament now where if they suddenly stop, it'll look like they given in to the boo'ers. THere needs to be a change of direction, or communication or something

[Big C]

16 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I personally think that the 'taking the knee' has lost it's impact and now only provokes heated debates about whether it should be done or not, rather than promote racial harmony and equality.

Having said that, if people want to take the knee then fine, do it. I won't boo them for it - even though I think it's now a bit pointless, it's their choice and after all; we are a tolerant society that allows people to express things like that unmolested. 

Whether is should be ALLOWED at an international tournament is another debate - I recall not that long ago England were fined for wearing a poppy to the memory of all the servicemen and women who died in conflicts since WW1, because the poppy was deemed to be a 'political' symbol. Isn't 'taking the knee' a political gesture??? Why would the poppy be banned and the knee gesturing allowed? 
 

 

 

No

[MarcusX]

22 minutes ago, TRUEBRIT66 said:

Thats very deep, I just saw a article explaining why he believes the fans booed  

Why do people think they can speak for why people boo'ed? How do they know why people boo'd?

[TheReds]

4 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

The only relevant question is what do the players/manager say they are doing it for?

Anything else is just somebody else's opinion. It's not up to you, Les Ferdinand, the BBC or "the fans" (it's only a small proportion of fans booing) to tell the England players why they are doing it.

I'm out of this thread now. It's just nothing but going around in circles.

Jeez.

Of course that isn't the only relevant question. Why not ask fans why they think the players are/were in support of BLM the Political movement?

I have just told you what a couple of players who have come out against it have said in interviews, I have said what the BBC have reported and said (no doubt many other outlets have reported the same) - there were no corrections to any them, so I am assuming they are all correct. Fans who have listened or read those articles/interviews are not entitled to make their own judgement on why the players were taking the knee at that time? That still isn't good enough for you, and it only matters what the managers say now. My point was initially they were taking the knee BECAUSE of BLM the movement, and now many are trying to get away from it because they have seen it for what it actually is.

Yet you can't see why there is any division and confusion whatsoever from their simple message? Can't believe how some fans boo because they see it as Political? The interviews were last year and think Taylors was the start of this year - which is when in my opinion, the whole taking the knee WAS associated to BLM and not a simple message of racial equality. 

 

[TRUEBRIT66]

2 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Why do people think they can speak for why people boo'ed? How do they know why people boo'd?

The same way people think they know the real reason a person takes the knee I presume ? 

[TheReds]

8 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Why do people think they can speak for why people boo'ed? How do they know why people boo'd?

Well considering they applauded the week after for a different gesture with the same message, I think it is fair to assume they weren't booing because they were racist.

[The Bard]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Think we’ve moved into the ‘cancel culture’ age. A generation that hasn’t been challenged on its views and now believes it’s 100% correct in everything it says and those with a different view are 100% wrong. As ever an action causes a reaction. So we’re moving towards extreme communism or nationalism whichever is your political standpoint and for which there seems very little difference in approach in the two extremes to the control of a society.
 

Need for education not symbolism for me. Educate, educate, educate based on the principle that Society respects all that positively contributes to the common good.

 

Sanctimonious drivel.

I challenge my children and they challenge me. It's my generation and older that are the problem here. Lazy and entitled having done **** all to deserve anything unlike my grandparents generation who went through hell to survive and leave something for their children and grandchildren.

 

I thought I was 100% correct at that age as did people I knew who thought the opposite. We didn't have to contend with the cancer of social media and the phoney culture war.

Blaming young people for the situation we're in is pure cowardice and you should be ashamed.  

[OneTeamInBristol]

It's very simple.

Players have the right to take the knee or not, their choice. 

Fans have the right to boo it or not, their choice.

End of discussion, let's get back to football.

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Spiked, the noted far right Conservative publication stating that those people victimised by racism are wrong for highlighting it. 

 

Spiked is generally Conservative, not wholly. Paul Embrey for instance and the guest of the podcast is a socialist.

The article is not appeasement or support for racism, it highlights what the writer sees as a disconnect between what Mr Southgate is seeing and what some football supporters and the writer feels.

[Strictly Obi]

Wouldn't it be great if the booers booed those who make monkey chants or nazi salutes instead of footballers who take the knee. But they don't seem to get angry enough about this, which is a shame. 

[supercidered]

Scotland now not taking the knee at the Euros. In their 'Stand up to Racism message'.

Hallelujah !!!

[Trueredsupporter]

@Stricyly Obi When was the last time anybody saw a nazi salute in a ground? when was the last time anybody heard a monkey chant? doesnt happen and if it did rest assured at bcfc the type of lads who will boo taking the knee would sort it.

[TheReds]

23 minutes ago, Strictly Obi said:

Wouldn't it be great if the booers booed those who make monkey chants or nazi salutes instead of footballers who take the knee. But they don't seem to get angry enough about this, which is a shame. 

Seriously?? WTF?? When was the last time anyone done this at a football game in the UK ? If they did they would get a slap, and that would happen in probably every ground in the country. Unbelievable post.