No knee

[Jim Davey]

7 hours ago, BS2 Red said:

In some cases that is true.

But at the moment the two groups are:

Group 1: "BOOOOOO!!!! STOP IT!!!! MARXISM!!!!"

Group 2: "Let the players decide for themselves"

Which group sounds more brainwashed?

the players

[AshtonGreat]

39 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I wasn't going to bring up the protests both because the majority of people who protest are peaceful and I think it is a little unfair to judge people on the behaviour of the worst of those who agree with them but, since you bring it up, you are obviously right that there is some degree of ideological convergence between those who whine about footballers kneeing down, those who protest against lockdown restrictions, those who felt the need protest outside vote counting centres because they dislike who won an election and those armed thugs who stormed the Capitol in January. Certainly all those protests further the idea that that the generation of which those who boo taking the knee seem to belong to appear to be a very intolerant and brittle generation indeed.

But @TheReds has got my point exactly. I'm not pretending for a moment that there is not an element amongst the left and an element amongst younger voters who are intolerant of other people's ideas and just want to shut down debate, potentially using violence, but there is no evidence at all that that element is any larger than the element of that older and more right wing that shut down debate by booing at football matches, harassing election officials or even bringing guns into the senate in the US. 

What I find bizarre in certain posters' need to constantly pretend all the intolerance is coming from the younger generation when you've got people exhibiting all the above behaviours and, even on a more pretty level, the amount of petty tolerance and unnecessary outrage generated - be it by those who get in a tizzy because someone wants to be called them instead of she or he, those booing because someone kneels down at a football or those who think it should be their decision what some Oxford University students display in their common room - is easily equal or greater than the outrage generated on the left.

I've called you out on your selective highlighting of generalisations before. But why do you feel to point out when generalisations are made about older people yet constantly allow the exact same type of sweeping generalisation about younger people to pass by unchallenged? 

When have I made a sweeping generalisation about younger people? And I've also said that I know a lot of older people who moan and whinge.

[LondonBristolian]

Just now, AshtonGreat said:

When have I made a sweeping generalisation about younger people? And I've also said that I know a lot of older people who moan and whinge.

I'm not saying you make them. I'm saying lots of posters on here make sweeping generalisations about young people, which you never ever out call, yet seem to feel the need to call out sweeping generalisations about older people.

If you genuinely oppose sweeping generalisations, call everyone out every time they make them. If you don't oppose them, don't selectively call them out just because you dislike that particular generalisations. Someone who complains about sweeping generalisations on Mondays and Thursdays but doesn't on Tuesdays and Wednesdays very clearly doesn't really care about sweeping generalisations at all. 

[RUSSEL85]

[The Hustler]

Should never have happened in the first place…

[Wiltshire robin]

Think we are gonna be the only country doing this at the euros with Scotland now refusing to do it 

[Big C]

40 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Think we are gonna be the only country doing this at the euros with Scotland now refusing to do it 

Don't think we will be

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'm not saying you make them. I'm saying lots of posters on here make sweeping generalisations about young people, which you never ever out call, yet seem to feel the need to call out sweeping generalisations about older people.

If you genuinely oppose sweeping generalisations, call everyone out every time they make them. If you don't oppose them, don't selectively call them out just because you dislike that particular generalisations. Someone who complains about sweeping generalisations on Mondays and Thursdays but doesn't on Tuesdays and Wednesdays very clearly doesn't really care about sweeping generalisations at all. 

There are a lot of sweeping generalisations there!

[exAtyeoMax]

7 hours ago, shepton red said:

It’s comical how people roll out that BLM is a Marxist organisation.  How many people on this forum, or across the football family, understand Marxist theology?? I certainly don’t, however, I do know that the UK press roll out this label for many left of centre political ideals.  

Can we please agree that the historical injustices against people from the black community are real and that all people should have an equal opportunity in life to achieve what they can to the best of their ability.

In football this means that black people should have a representation across the senior management and administration of our game that is reflective of society and perhaps as a reflection of the numbers of black players in the English game; 25%. 

BLM the organisation was founded by a woman who is a trained Marxist. I'm not an expert on it at all but I do take an interest in what is happening in the US with regards to Critical Race Theory and issues with culture and race.  There seems to be many black people who oppose BLM the organisation, and also the Marxist ideology that proposes they are somehow oppressed (The Oppressed V The Oppressor (white people) as they quite rightly don't want to be seen as victims or in need of saving by white people. The situation is quite complicated and nuanced but Critical Race Theory and other parts of Critical Theory regarding feminism, post colonial theory, trans theory are being taught in universities in the UK (talking about whiteness, white privilege, etc). Therefore, that is why lots of youngsters would have been exposed to it.

I recently graduated from University Arts London, and it was quite prevalent, especially the resentment towards white men (the oppressive patriarchy), due to the teaching of CRT and CT (identity politics). I wasn't actually aware of the Marxist connection (because I didn't study those subjects) until an eminent professor pointed it out to me at the end of year degree show. She also said she would be fired if the university faculty found out that she had said that… Many states in the US are trying to get it banned from being taught in schools.

I watch quite a lot of black You Tubers and political commentators who comment on these issues, and because they don't agree with CRT and BLM (the organisation) they are often racially abused by those who do.

[pillred]

2 hours ago, tts_city said:

Waaahhh waaaahhhh waaaaahhhhhh and round she goes, ffs mods move this thread.

Why would they, it's provoked heated debate and a lot of interesting opinions. I suggest you don't bother looking at it, I usually find that helps.

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Oh very very dear. You are aware of course of horse shoe theory. 

Someone whose written about being called a fascist, because of his ideals including race tropes and the rest as well as lots of attacks at 'Liberal Wokedom' is no left winger. 

If they walk like a duck, talk like a duck and act like a duck. Probability is high that they are a duck.

Least this thread is massively exposing those who've been radicalised into that way of thinking.

 

More extremist nonsense. Yes I am aware of horseshoe theory. Its suspect. Yes your post is an example of your radicalism. Yes you can be left wing and have concerns about identity politics. Mr Embrey does not talk like a duck. This is just another example of your maligning. In no sentient world is Paul Embrey a Fascist. 

 

 

 

[LucasIsHere]

I'm no expert on what taking a knee originally meant or means now, but surely the message has been diluted at this point, especially with all the racist abuse still seen on twitter despite taking the knee.

[shepton red]

33 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

BLM the organisation was founded by a woman who is a trained Marxist. I'm not an expert on it at all but I do take an interest in what is happening in the US with regards to Critical Race Theory and issues with culture and race.  There seems to be many black people who oppose BLM the organisation, and also the Marxist ideology that proposes they are somehow oppressed (The Oppressed V The Oppressor (white people) as they quite rightly don't want to be seen as victims or in need of saving by white people. The situation is quite complicated and nuanced but Critical Race Theory and other parts of Critical Theory regarding feminism, post colonial theory, trans theory are being taught in universities in the UK (talking about whiteness, white privilege, etc). Therefore, that is why lots of youngsters would have been exposed to it.

I recently graduated from University Arts London, and it was quite prevalent, especially the resentment towards white men (the oppressive patriarchy), due to the teaching of CRT and CT (identity politics). I wasn't actually aware of the Marxist connection (because I didn't study those subjects) until an eminent professor pointed it out to me at the end of year degree show. She also said she would be fired if the university faculty found out that she had said that… Many states in the US are trying to get it banned from being taught in schools.

I watch quite a lot of black You Tubers and political commentators who comment on these issues, and because they don't agree with CRT and BLM (the organisation) they are often racially abused by those who do.

Patently you know more about the roots of the BLM movement and it’s core leadership. But i stand by the fact that people label people of Marxists without understanding what that means; obviously not you.
 

However, that is only an element of my post. I am a fervent believer in meritocracy and being able to achieve all you can in life because of your ability and effort, and that is why I believe the hat taking the knee is a good thing. It highlights the additional struggle that black peoples have to undergo in order to achieve parity.

Football should be more representational in regards to persons of colour at the seniority echelons.

if players taking the knee helps level the playing fields for all people, of all cultures and creeds, then that is for the greater good, and I would applaud anyone who takes that stance.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Perhaps, your post could expose the very far right stuff some more. 

 

 

What very far right stuff? 

[havanatopia]

4 hours ago, RedRock said:

How many more do you want?
 

Certainly could add Cameron, May and Boris to that list.  Thankfully, Straw only made Home Secretary but he did enough damage in that role. 

Well, evidence suggests you probably have to go back to before the Napoleonic wars to find a squeaky clean PM or US President.

[AshtonGreat]

12 hours ago, RedRock said:

How many more do you want?
 

Certainly could add Cameron, May and Boris to that list.  Thankfully, Straw only made Home Secretary but he did enough damage in that role. 

That's just a Straw man argument

[MarcusX]

14 hours ago, TheReds said:

WTF, is this where we are at? You just cannot simply accept the view that the booing wasn't by racists, and as a club they must have 2 sets of fans who take it turns getting tickets through their loyalty scheme or whatever it was to get tickets at those 2 games? Were they marked as racists and non racists on the Millwall ticketing system?  It must have just been really unlucky to give all the "racists" tickets who turned up one week and booed the taking the knee, and they then let all the "anti racists" the week after to applaud a different anti-racist message. Yeah, that sounds perfectly reasonable. 

 

 

The simple question is do you know, as fact, why any particular Millwall fan decided to boo? Did that same fan attend the next game and specifically not boo because he was happy that the protest had changed? No one is claiming that everyone who boo'ed is racist, but your side of the argument are so quick to tell us they know exactly why people boo'd when quite frankly, you don't.

What you're also failing to recall is that although players linked arms and held a banner, QPR players and the referee took the knee afterwards. So why didn't they boo that if they so adamently disaprove of the knee? 

There was also the message to the fans "The eyes of the world are on this football club tonight - your club - and they want us to fail"

Also note this report from the night "Football fans applauded the anti-racist display, and there have been no reports of dissent – though any boos would have been drowned out by loud music which was being blasted by the venue."

I think they just realised they had to be on their best behaviour after the embarrasment of the previous game.

[Trueredsupporter]

More from the far right with John Barnes saying he wouldnt take the knee, saying he doesnt think Gareth Southgate understands how complex racism is, states the England team is being used, asks what practical action has been created and points out the big issue of knife crime is being ignored.

[Baba Yaga]

Just now, Trueredsupporter said:

More from the far right with John Barnes saying he wouldnt take the knee, saying he doesnt think Gareth Southgate understands how complex racism is, states the England team is being used, asks what practical action has been created and points out the big issue of knife crime is being ignored.

Even if I don't agree with him I always listen, clearly a person who thinks for himself which makes him stand out like anything amongst famous people. Sure I will be hearing his rap a few times in the coming weeks too. 

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, Trueredsupporter said:

More from the far right with John Barnes saying he wouldnt take the knee, saying he doesnt think Gareth Southgate understands how complex racism is, states the England team is being used, asks what practical action has been created and points out the big issue of knife crime is being ignored.

Good for John, he’s been quite vocal about it for a while I think. As has been pointed out so so so many times no one has a problem with those people who don’t want to take the knee or who question it’s validity in a grown up manner as I’m sure John is. Not sure why that doesn’t go in? 
Meanwhile today’s England footballers (whose opinions are just as valid as John’s) have decided that they do wish to continue with taking the knee for now and as such do not deserve to be boo’d for doing so. Easy isn’t it! 

[Trueredsupporter]

Yes well said John. Same being said in these threads by the sane. Being opposed to this knee doesnt make you racist or all the other things being chucked around like far right. Just like John you can think differently to the right on crew and you can think the knee should be changed for any number of reasons.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

The simple question is do you know, as fact, why any particular Millwall fan decided to boo?

It is common sense to understand what particular issues are, however in the case of Millwall supporters fans released a statement explaining why they were going to proceed as they did - Its out there somewhere on line. 

 

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

 Did that same fan attend the next game and specifically not boo because he was happy that the protest had changed? No one is claiming that everyone who boo'ed is racist, but your side of the argument are so quick to tell us they know exactly why people boo'd when quite frankly, you don't.

.

People are claiming consistently that the booing of the knee is racist, its supports racists and in threads of supporting ethnic nationalism and the far right. 

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

What you're also failing to recall is that although players linked arms and held a banner, QPR players and the referee took the knee afterwards. So why didn't they boo that if they so adamently disaprove of the knee? 

There was also the message to the fans "The eyes of the world are on this football club tonight - your club - and they want us to fail"

Also note this report from the night "Football fans applauded the anti-racist display, and there have been no reports of dissent – though any boos would have been drowned out by loud music which was being blasted by the venue."

I think they just realised they had to be on their best behaviour after the embarrasment of the previous game.

You may be interested in the views of the Millwall supporters club.

Anyone who believes it was a racist act, should read the views of those who booed and see they were doing it in reaction to the war memorials and statues of Churchill defaced by the BLM organisation and the extreme political views they hold, and for which ‘taking the knee’ is associated with. These same fans have never booed the Kick it Out campaigns on our pitch or the huge work of the Millwall Community Trust and its many anti-racism campaigns.

The word never is featured there.

The supporters club also acted as advocates by proactively seeking out supporters views.

As the official supporters’ club which represents all Millwall fans, our statement may to some have been delayed, but we have been determined to listen to as many different views as possible before commenting.

That is creating an evidence base. The Millwall supporters club by acting as advocates and using the history of fan behaviour know exactly why many fans acted as they have. 

 

[mozo]

I actually think England will be subjected to a lot of booing when they take the knee, particularly from opposing fans, and in a way it could actually improve the team spirit with a 'in the trenches' spirit. 

The knee could be a significant factor in our success.

The scenes if Rashford scores the winner in the final and celebrates by...

 

[supercidered]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is common sense to understand what particular issues are, however in the case of Millwall supporters fans released a statement explaining why they were going to proceed as they did - Its out thre somewhere on line. 

 

People are claiming consistently that the booing of the knee is racist, its supports racists and in threads of supporting ethnic nationalism and the far right. 

You may be interested in the views of the Millwall supporters club.

Anyone who believes it was a racist act, should read the views of those who booed and see they were doing it in reaction to the war memorials and statues of Churchill defaced by the BLM organisation and the extreme political views they hold, and for which ‘taking the knee’ is associated with. These same fans have never booed the Kick it Out campaigns on our pitch or the huge work of the Millwall Community Trust and its many anti-racism campaigns.

The word never is feature there.

The supporters club also acted as advocates by proactively seeking out supporters views.

As the official supporters’ club which represents all Millwall fans, our statement may to some have been delayed, but we have been determined to listen to as many different views as possible before commenting.

That is creating an evidence base. The supporters club by acting as advocates and using the history of fan behaviour know exactly why many fans acted as they have. 

 

I have to say that the views of the Millwall Supporters Club pretty much sums it up for me. Good for them!

 

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

It is common sense to understand what particular issues are, however in the case of Millwall supporters fans released a statement explaining why they were going to proceed as they did - Its out there somewhere on line. 

 

People are claiming consistently that the booing of the knee is racist, its supports racists and in threads of supporting ethnic nationalism and the far right. 

You may be interested in the views of the Millwall supporters club.

Anyone who believes it was a racist act, should read the views of those who booed and see they were doing it in reaction to the war memorials and statues of Churchill defaced by the BLM organisation and the extreme political views they hold, and for which ‘taking the knee’ is associated with. These same fans have never booed the Kick it Out campaigns on our pitch or the huge work of the Millwall Community Trust and its many anti-racism campaigns.

The word never is featured there.

The supporters club also acted as advocates by proactively seeking out supporters views.

As the official supporters’ club which represents all Millwall fans, our statement may to some have been delayed, but we have been determined to listen to as many different views as possible before commenting.

That is creating an evidence base. The Millwall supporters club by acting as advocates and using the history of fan behaviour know exactly why many fans acted as they have. 

 

Whilst I think parts of Millwall responded well to what happened, do you really expect any questioned fan to come out and say "I boo'd because I'm racist" or if they did, for it to be published by the supporters club? Of course not.

I cant find any statement that Millwall released before boo'ing but I'm not saying that doesn't exist.

I've never said everyone who boo's is racist, because its quite conceivable they aren't, but there is this attempt to find a reason to justify the actions. The players taking the knee had nothing to do with someone defacing a war memorial though.

[RedRock]

2 hours ago, Trueredsupporter said:

More from the far right with John Barnes saying he wouldnt take the knee, saying he doesnt think Gareth Southgate understands how complex racism is, states the England team is being used, asks what practical action has been created and points out the big issue of knife crime is being ignored.

Precisely. The voice of reason. 

Well said John, spoken from a man that, sadly, suffered beyond brutal racism. 

What is it with people that they either can’t, or refuse, to understand what he and many others have said?
 

I’ve no doubt for some it’s political point-scoring, others though who are either in the intellectual or compassion elite I’m at a loss with. 

 

Gets my vote for the man that should be heading up the FA equality/discrimination team, indeed, worthy of being in Government imo. 
 

[And Its Smith]

11 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Precisely. The voice of reason. 

Well said John, spoken from a man that, sadly, suffered beyond brutal racism. 

What is it with people that they either can’t, or refuse, to understand what he and many others have said?
 

I’ve no doubt for some it’s political point-scoring, others though who are either in the intellectual or compassion elite I’m at a loss with. 

 

Gets my vote for the man that should be heading up the FA equality/discrimination team, indeed, worthy of being in Government imo. 
 

You say he’s the voice of reason purely because you agree with him.  There are a fair few black players who don’t want anyone to take the knee but there are more that do want it.  What is it with people who either can’t, or refuse to understand, that England players taking the knee is separate to BLM, as they have explained?

[Capman]

10 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Precisely. The voice of reason. 

Well said John, spoken from a man that, sadly, suffered beyond brutal racism. 

What is it with people that they either can’t, or refuse, to understand what he and many others have said?
 

I’ve no doubt for some it’s political point-scoring, others though who are either in the intellectual or compassion elite I’m at a loss with. 

 

Gets my vote for the man that should be heading up the FA equality/discrimination team, indeed, worthy of being in Government imo. 
 

I understand perfectly well what he has said. I am just not sure I agree with him.  It seems to me that the problem is those who listen to the views they like and then insist anyone who does not agree is somehow wrong. Particularly when they choose to go on about compassion elite as if anyone who disagrees with them has a political agenda.

[Strictly Obi]

31 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Whilst I think parts of Millwall responded well to what happened, do you really expect any questioned fan to come out and say "I boo'd because I'm racist" or if they did, for it to be published by the supporters club? Of course not.

I cant find any statement that Millwall released before boo'ing but I'm not saying that doesn't exist.

I've never said everyone who boo's is racist, because its quite conceivable they aren't, but there is this attempt to find a reason to justify the actions. The players taking the knee had nothing to do with someone defacing a war memorial though.

I agree, it's laughable those that try to somehow say that fans are booing because someone defaced a war memorial, what utter tripe. Maybe a small minority, but most are booing because they don't agree with the BLM Protest. Players are just showing solidarity and highlighting the fact that much more needs to be done to tackle racism around the world. Every political wing has its extremists, but the vast majority are just ordinary people trying to draw attention to the plight and injustice many black people around the world feel. 

[lenred]

1 minute ago, Strictly Obi said:

I agree, it's laughable those that try to somehow say that fans are booing because someone defaced a war memorial, what utter tripe. Maybe a small minority, but most are booing because they don't agree with the BLM Protest. Players are just showing solidarity and highlighting the fact that much more needs to be done to tackle racism around the world. Every political wing has its extremists, but the vast majority are just ordinary people trying to draw attention to the plight and injustice many black people around the world feel. 

Indeed.  Wasn’t much comeback on Chelsea supporters as a group from the ‘football lads’ about this defacement was there. It’s just another bullshit excuse…..