Euro 2021/21

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m yet to see a detailed report which proves that having a national anthem which you can sing with vigour increases your chance of winning a sporting fixture. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a good anthem as much as anyone, but it bears zero relation to the result on the pitch. 

There have been reports. 

Singing a song, but believing in the values and shared identity behind the song can stimulate the body's production of performance and enhancing hormones. Belief can trigger the fight response v flight and freeze. Belief engages the intellectual mind v the primitive.

Yes the effect can marginally affect sporting success.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

33 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Well - ive witnessed the Welsh team huddles etc and compared to England. In my opinion its no contest. I never said passion alone makes you win - of course there are other factors (duh) but i reckon our lot could learn a bit of a lesson from the Welsh.

Dunno whether you have ever been to the rugby in Cardiff when Wales are playing....that'll tell you everything about what passion can do to inspire a team

Yes and they shut up Town to traffic and even buses, to give the supporters of both countries plenty of space to show their passion and believe me they do. I drove for Cardiff Bus for 15 years, before I retired and buses were terminated just short of the Centre and passengers had to walk to another side of town to continue their journeys. There where not may complaints about it when Wales were playing. but when all the Wembley games were played at there, that was different. Very patriotic the Welsh!

[TonyTonyTony]

39 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’m yet to see a detailed report which proves that having a national anthem which you can sing with vigour increases your chance of winning a sporting fixture. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a good anthem as much as anyone, but it bears zero relation to the result on the pitch. 

I know i mentioned the national anthem, but i wasnt drawing that exact link. A bit of passion in general, and like i said - go to watch the rugby in Cardiff to understand passion. Wembley by contrast is boring as ****

[2015]

23 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I know i mentioned the national anthem, but i wasnt drawing that exact link. A bit of passion in general, and like i said - go to watch the rugby in Cardiff to understand passion. Wembley by contrast is boring as ****

Said this many times before, but if you play England home matches at Elland Road, Villa Park, The Den, Stamford Bridge, St James' Park and you would see passionate Englishmen.

Wembley is full of corporates.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I’m yet to see a detailed report which proves that having a national anthem which you can sing with vigour increases your chance of winning a sporting fixture. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a good anthem as much as anyone, but it bears zero relation to the result on the pitch. 

As proven by the Brazilian national anthem.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

2 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I would have said logistics is the logical answer, so teams no where they may have to travel to and fans getting tickets etc but given the shape of the 3rd place format you could be playing on one of 3-4 days in various locations and that wont be finalised until a few days before. 

Agreed, that's the logical explanation and makes sense. It is a bit of a shame it has to be like that, means teams will try and manage games to get optimum results based on future fixtures. 

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

Passion is overhyped, passion alone does not win you anything, they have good players (Bale, Ramsey, James, Allen, Rodon) and a well structured team set up. They know what their game plan is going into each game, which England seem a little confused by based on the first 2 matches.

Sometimes think it's easier going into games as underdogs, your game plan is to simply just stop the opposition and when you get a chance counter as quick as possible, which Wales have the perfect players to do that with. 

England are tasked with breaking down stubborn opponents, and the weight of expectation of England is far greater than Wales which applies massive pressure on the players. Wales players can play with a bit more freedom and less pressure to perform.

I'm all for beating England with a stick after Friday and especially Southgate, but this 'passion' thing is a load of over used rubbish, they're an underestimated side and we're a side which does not cope well under pressure. England may well do better when they are the underdogs and have little expectation like we had before 2018.

 

1 hour ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I disagree.

Dean Holden was a passion merchant, didn't work too well with him. I get what you're saying of course. I don't think GSTQ is a very good anthem really. It's far too short and actually quite dull. I think Jerusalem or I Vow to Thee, My Country would be better anthems.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed, that's the logical explanation and makes sense. It is a bit of a shame it has to be like that, means teams will try and manage games to get optimum results based on future fixtures. 

 

Dean Holden was a passion merchant, didn't work too well with him. I get what you're saying of course. I don't think GSTQ is a very good anthem really. It's far too short and actually quite dull. I think Jerusalem or I Vow to Thee, My Country would be better anthems.

I reckon I’m the only person in the country who finds Jerusalem really really boring 

[2015]

Just now, Rob k said:

I reckon I’m the only person in the country who finds Jerusalem really really boring 

Land of hope and glory would be decent i think for Football... All the hope and no glory

[bcfcredandwhite]

I can see Croatia beating Scotland and England losing to Kalas’s boys and going out. 

[2015]

2 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I can see Croatia beating Scotland and England losing to Kalas’s boys and going out. 

England are more than likely to go through based on the 3rd place ranking even if they lose. Switzerland have 4 points and a -1 GD already. We won't lose by more than 2 goals 

[Super]

5 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I can see Croatia beating Scotland and England losing to Kalas’s boys and going out. 

Hopefully Kalas plays as well as he did last time against England.

[North London Red]

11 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I can see Croatia beating Scotland and England losing to Kalas’s boys and going out. 

Wouldn’t England go through in second place in that scenario, finishing ahead of Croatia by virtue of their head to head record (which, as far as I can see from UEFA’s guidance, is the first determinant to separate two teams who finish level on points)?

I think England can only finish third if Scotland and the Czechs win, and there’s a big enough swing in goal difference. Even then, they might still get through as one of the four best third place teams. 

Not impossible by any means that England will go out, but probably unlikely. 

[Harry]

54 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I know i mentioned the national anthem, but i wasnt drawing that exact link. A bit of passion in general, and like i said - go to watch the rugby in Cardiff to understand passion. Wembley by contrast is boring as ****

Ah, so 2 completely different things then. 
If you’re saying a home crowd atmosphere can influence players and results, then I’d agree. 
If you are simply saying that the passion shown when singing a National Anthem had any impact, then it’s nonsense. 
If the Welsh rugby passion is so revered, how come, this century, England have won 7 six nations vs Wales 6. Oh and also Wales have more wooden spoons?? 
The Italians sing very passionately too. They’ve not won any! 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

There have been reports. 

Singing a song, but believing in the values and shared identity behind the song can stimulate the body's production of performance and enhancing hormones. Belief can trigger the fight response v flight and freeze. Belief engages the intellectual mind v the primitive.

Yes the effect can marginally affect sporting success.

Did those studies also report on any players becoming ‘overly exuberant’ and picking up an early yellow card?? 

[TonyTonyTony]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

If the Welsh rugby passion is so revered, how come, this century, England have won 7 six nations vs Wales 6. 

Not bad for a country with 5% of the population of England. Passionate boyo's......

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Not bad for a country with 5% of the population of England. Passionate boyo's......

Ok. So why have the USA never won a rugby World Cup? They’ve got 1000% more rugby clubs than Wales and over 400% more than New Zealand?? 

[Gazred]

Anthem or not, if you can't get pumped up and full of passion playing for your country, at home and in a major tournament then there is something wrong with you.

I just don't think England's footballers cope very well with the expectation and pressure they are under. I've seen countless flat performances from them in tournaments over the years. We always piss qualification and often play some decent stuff on the way. Along come the important games and then you'll likely get a v Iceland or v Scotland type display.

[Cowshed]

24 minutes ago, Harry said:

Did those studies also report on any players becoming ‘overly exuberant’ and picking up an early yellow card?? 

Perhaps but it is a fact that many things rouse emotions e.g. anthems, battle cry's, chants, hymns, songs, speeches .. And frequently stirring positive emotions to aid  performances are the point of their existence. 

 

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, 2015 said:

Passion is overhyped, passion alone does not win you anything, they have good players (Bale, Ramsey, James, Allen, Rodon) and a well structured team set up. They know what their game plan is going into each game, which England seem a little confused by based on the first 2 matches.

Sometimes think it's easier going into games as underdogs, your game plan is to simply just stop the opposition and when you get a chance counter as quick as possible, which Wales have the perfect players to do that with. 

England are tasked with breaking down stubborn opponents, and the weight of expectation of England is far greater than Wales which applies massive pressure on the players. Wales players can play with a bit more freedom and less pressure to perform.

I'm all for beating England with a stick after Friday and especially Southgate, but this 'passion' thing is a load of over used rubbish, they're an underestimated side and we're a side which does not cope well under pressure. England may well do better when they are the underdogs and have little expectation like we had before 2018.

Maybe passion isn't the right word, but hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard is an old quote and it's still relevant. Why do underdogs get results? Because they know they have to work their nuts off as a team to get a result. It might not be "passion" but it's proper hard work and determination. That said, it can depend on tactics. If your tactic is high press and energy then it will look more "passionate" or determined. Working hard can just be getting your banks for 4 in behind the ball and keeping your shape, which may look less "energised". I dont think our tactics make us look like we are that energetic or "passionate", these players are capable of playing at higher tempos they are clearly being instructed not to.

2 hours ago, Harry said:

I’m yet to see a detailed report which proves that having a national anthem which you can sing with vigour increases your chance of winning a sporting fixture. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a good anthem as much as anyone, but it bears zero relation to the result on the pitch. 

There are definitely links between the effects of music on performance, not only listening during but what you listen to immediately before.

I think you're right though, the anthem is not our problem

[MarcusX]

4 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Anthem or not, if you can't get pumped up and full of passion playing for your country, at home and in a major tournament then there is something wrong with you.

I just don't think England's footballers cope very well with the expectation and pressure they are under. I've seen countless flat performances from them in tournaments over the years. We always piss qualification and often play some decent stuff on the way. Along come the important games and then you'll likely get a v Iceland or v Scotland type display.

I agree and sadly that is Southgate's biggest failing IMO because that is the one thing he said he understands and he promised to resolve. He said that the fear factor is our biggest issue and he wanted to remove the fear of playing for your country.

The press and media don't help matters mind.

[TonyTonyTony]

14 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ok. So why have the USA never won a rugby World Cup? They’ve got 1000% more rugby clubs than Wales and over 400% more than New Zealand?? 

Going off on a bit of a tangent there Harry. The answer is the US professional rugby is crap. Coaching is nowhere near top level, all because its a minority sport. They also lack the passion of the Welsh, and you also brought up New Zealand. The only thing to match Bread of Heaven in Cardiff is the NZ Haka - probably the epitome of a bit of theatre to arouse passion. Good example - cheers

[2015]

Spain drew their first 2 games, apparentely their players just aren't as passionate as Sweden or Slovakia that's why they're above them in the Group.

It's tactics and allowing 3 teams from Groups to go through is very much benefitting the weaker Nations

What we're seeing in this Tournament is Defence vs Attack in most matches where the outright favourites have the majority of the ball and the underdogs just sit in and work hard. It's making it tough for the better sides (Spain drawn twice, France drew with Hungary, England drew with Scotland).
I don't think people realise how tough it is to break down a side who just sit in for the majority of the game and give you no attacking space, it puts teams under massive pressure infront of goal.

As long as you get out of the Group it's all that matters really then games will eventually open up when teams have got to win games.

[Harry]

11 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Going off on a bit of a tangent there Harry. The answer is the US professional rugby is crap. Coaching is nowhere near top level, all because its a minority sport. They also lack the passion of the Welsh, and you also brought up New Zealand. The only thing to match Bread of Heaven in Cardiff is the NZ Haka - probably the epitome of a bit of theatre to arouse passion. Good example - cheers

The tangent was you suggesting Wales had performed well given their population size. When in actual fact rugby is a minority sport in England, but a majority one in Wales. 
End of the day, just because they have a National anthem that lends itself to a more ‘rousing’ output, doesn’t mean that gives them any edge once the first whistle goes. 

[Harry]

29 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Perhaps but it is a fact that many things rouse emotions e.g. anthems, battle cry's, chants, hymns, songs, speeches .. And frequently stirring positive emotions to aid  performances are the point of their existence. 

 

Battle cry. Ok. Give me 2 guys, in a boxing bout, both attempt to aid their performance by listening to the same song. Both are from the same country, same city, went to the same school, and are trained by the same coach, heck let’s even say they are twins. 
The one that is the better boxer will win.  Nothing to do the fact he listened to Shabba Ranks or something beforehand. 
 

In fact I think almost the opposite of a battle cry is likely better. Music to aid relaxation is probably better than music to stir emotion. 

[The Bard]

1 hour ago, 2015 said:

England are more than likely to go through based on the 3rd place ranking even if they lose. Switzerland have 4 points and a -1 GD already. We won't lose by more than 2 goals 

There's about a 0.1% chance of England being knocked out. Would take a mauling by the Czechs plus about 7 results to go an exact way.

[TonyTonyTony]

14 minutes ago, Harry said:

Battle cry. Ok. Give me 2 guys, in a boxing bout, both attempt to aid their performance by listening to the same song. Both are from the same country, same city, went to the same school, and are trained by the same coach, heck let’s even say they are twins. 
The one that is the better boxer will win.  Nothing to do the fact he listened to Shabba Ranks or something beforehand. 

Of course the better boxer will win. Jesus. Have you never heard of pump up songs to be played in the changing room. Why do people listen to music when working out or running? Motivation. Its a 1%'er, or a 0.1%'er as i believe the phrase is now. 

 

[Kashmir]

18 minutes ago, Harry said:

The tangent was you suggesting Wales had performed well given their population size. When in actual fact rugby is a minority sport in England, but a majority one in Wales. 
End of the day, just because they have a National anthem that lends itself to a more ‘rousing’ output, doesn’t mean that gives them any edge once the first whistle goes. 

Of course Wales record is impressive considering the population size compared to England.

England’s registered rugby union players far outweighs that of Wales or most other countries. Hardly a minority sport.

[Cowshed]

29 minutes ago, Harry said:

Battle cry. Ok. Give me 2 guys, in a boxing bout, both attempt to aid their performance by listening to the same song. Both are from the same country, same city, went to the same school, and are trained by the same coach, heck let’s even say they are twins. 
The one that is the better boxer will win.  Nothing to do the fact he listened to Shabba Ranks or something beforehand. 
 

In fact I think almost the opposite of a battle cry is likely better. Music to aid relaxation is probably better than music to stir emotion. 

That is a silly hypothetical. Lets say they are not twins. Lets say the competitors have roughly equal abilities but one takes a little more time and concentrates on creating behaviours and strategies that are more likely to create flow states. A competitor there is more likely to win. 

Your in fact is an opinion. If the communication (relaxing music) is used inappropriately relaxation degrades performance significantly. Humans are wired that way. 

A short rousing piece of music, a anthem etc can help to increase motivation, spark the motor cortex more efficiently  .. Can not the 100% will in every individual, but this sports science is backed up by empirical evidence. 

[2015]

Wales are simply better than England at Rugby some years, has nothing to do with passion or pride.

Wales are not better at Football than England, but it helps playing with no expectation or pressure and having good players themselves. Scotland are also not better than England simply because they drew on Friday. The expectations of both Scotland and Wales is vastly lower than England's, and for good reason - Smaller Nations, smaller talent pool, less access to funds and they don't have the players, bar 1 or 2 in both Nations.

Wales, Scotland, Sweden, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic go out there with little pressure on the result against better sides and are tactically astute and work hard. That doesn't make any of these Nations more passionate about their Country than anyone else, it's just what they have to do to compete, by making things difficult for their opponents.

Passion was a thing of the 1990s, but Football has moved on to a much more technical level since then

 

[MarcusX]

37 minutes ago, Harry said:

Battle cry. Ok. Give me 2 guys, in a boxing bout, both attempt to aid their performance by listening to the same song. Both are from the same country, same city, went to the same school, and are trained by the same coach, heck let’s even say they are twins. 
The one that is the better boxer will win.  Nothing to do the fact he listened to Shabba Ranks or something beforehand. 
 

In fact I think almost the opposite of a battle cry is likely better. Music to aid relaxation is probably better than music to stir emotion. 

Interestingly, the study I read that I was going to link in my previous reply but couldn't find again (read it last week whilst researching for a blog post about music and running) found exactly this. Before exercise calming music was found to be more effective and during exercise the higher tempo stuff was better