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Another VAR Vs TMO thread


1960maaan

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Sorry if this is rehashing old ground.

Just watching the highlights of the Bath game, the difference in how the TV Ref & on field Ref handle to use of footage is massive. 

Bath score a try, but the TMO flags up a possible infringement.
Word with the Ref, clear and concise. Possible problem with Bath No.21 blocking a player without the ball.
Ref replies, asks question, then they go straight to the problem.
Ref watches, makes a decision to disallow the Try. 
But because they were playing an advantage it goes back to a Penalty for Bath

This was a potentially confusing moment if the Ref hadn't been clear and the crowd now knows what's going on, easy.

Footballs version.
Something happens.
Game stops for 5 minutes.
Maybe a Ref looks, more often someone who isn't the Ref makes a decision.
Ref mimes a TV screen and points.
No one knows what's going on.

All it would take, even if they don't want the footage to be shown, is for the Ref to have to give his explanation of the decision. The Laws/rules may be flawed, but simple communication would make things a lot better. 

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You nail the problem, football doesn’t want its refs mics live as they know a good chunk the opinions of the officials are off and don’t want it broadcast.

but you also pick after a try is scored (game stopped) in rugby vs in play during football so very different scenarios. 

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9 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

You nail the problem, football doesn’t want its refs mics live as they know a good chunk the opinions of the officials are off and don’t want it broadcast.

but you also pick after a try is scored (game stopped) in rugby vs in play during football so very different scenarios. 

It's going to be more that the language used towards officials is disgusting and they don't want it broadcast.

Once football players treat referees with the same respect that rugby players do, we can mic up the refs.

No-one would criticise the ref if on his mic he said "from my perspective the player was tripped and therefore it's a penalty" and the VAR ref says, "we've looked at it from 3 angles and there was no contact it's a dive"

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Just now, grifty said:

It's going to be more that the language used towards officials is disgusting and they don't want it broadcast.

Once football players treat referees with the same respect that rugby players do, we can mic up the refs.

Well yeah that as well but I think the FA are too embarrassed by the possibility of referees calling wrong decisions on such a big stage, why else do referees not have to answer for poor decisions later on apart from PGMOL who do everything possible to cover for them

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1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Well yeah that as well but I think the FA are too embarrassed by the possibility of referees calling wrong decisions on such a big stage, why else do referees not have to answer for poor decisions later on apart from PGMOL who do everything possible to cover for them

I think if the ref explains why he made a decision from his point of view, no-one would really care. I don't think anyone believes the refs are bent, but I bet they know as they are making a decision "I'm gonna get crucified on social media for this". They won't make incorrect calls on purpose. They can genuinely only go on what they see.

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1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

Sorry if this is rehashing old ground.

Just watching the highlights of the Bath game, the difference in how the TV Ref & on field Ref handle to use of footage is massive. n.

All it would take, even if they don't want the footage to be shown, is for the Ref to have to give his explanation of the decision. The Laws/rules may be flawed, but simple communication would make things a lot better. 

There are several rules/laws in rugby that could be applied to football and this is yet another example.

10mins in the bin for a yellow, only the captain can speak to the referee, 10 yards advance at the discretion on the team captain offered by the referee for a player speaking out of turn, but it won’t happen. FIFA are too stuck in their ways.

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2 hours ago, Robbored said:

There are several rules/laws in rugby that could be applied to football and this is yet another example.

10mins in the bin for a yellow, only the captain can speak to the referee, 10 yards advance at the discretion on the team captain offered by the referee for a player speaking out of turn, but it won’t happen. FIFA are too stuck in their ways.

The move the ball 10 yard rule for dissent has always made me laugh in that it was tried and then people moaned "yeah but, no but, what if that means the ball is right on the edge of the penalty area and a player can't get it up and over the wall?" and claim that it's a disadvantage. As you say ALL you have to do is re-write the rule to say you can move the ball a MAXIMUM OF 10 YARDS ANYWHERE IN ANY DIRECTION YOU LIKE to give yourself the optimum chance of executing the free kick.

Another one I would introduce is if you get a free kick and a player on your team tries to get the offending player booked or sent off the free kick gets moved back FIFTY yards or back to the six yard box, whichever is closer. It will never get introduced obviously. In fact if I was refereeing the player wanting to see a card waved around would get his wish..............to an extent.

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It's all very simple. We scrap VAR and get rid of 4th Officials, their silly little board and technical areas and, allow the referee and linesman take charge of the game. The linesman flags immediately when a player is offside to remove any debate on 1st,2nd or 27th phases and any shenanigans from the manager and his coaching staff gets reported for a minimum £10k fine. 

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7 hours ago, Robbored said:

There are several rules/laws in rugby that could be applied to football and this is yet another example.

10mins in the bin for a yellow, only the captain can speak to the referee, 10 yards advance at the discretion on the team captain offered by the referee for a player speaking out of turn, but it won’t happen. FIFA are too stuck in their ways.

The 10 minute sin bins are being used NOW, and have been implemented for the last 2-3 years, this as far up as the Western League. The 10 yard advancement was trialed about ten years ago. 
 

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5 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

It's all very simple. We scrap VAR and get rid of 4th Officials, their silly little board and technical areas and, allow the referee and linesman take charge of the game. The linesman flags immediately when a player is offside to remove any debate on 1st,2nd or 27th phases and any shenanigans from the manager and his coaching staff gets reported for a minimum £10k fine. 

Getting rid of the 4th officials would create carnage in the pro game, we now have situations where up to ten substitutions happen in most games. Who do you suggest controls all of this. 

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1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

The 10 minute sin bins are being used NOW, and have been implemented for the last 2-3 years, this as far up as the Western League. The 10 yard advancement was trialed about ten years ago. 
 

Yeah, I remember but FIFA claimed that too many countries don’t play rugby and therefore didn’t understand it. If it was implemented again then 10yards in any direction should apply.

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1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

Getting rid of the 4th officials would create carnage in the pro game, we now have situations where up to ten substitutions happen in most games. Who do you suggest controls all of this. 

The referee and linesmen, it's their job. A player can't enter the field of play without the match referees consent. 

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22 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

The referee and linesmen, it's their job. A player can't enter the field of play without the match referees consent. 

Its not their job, it’s the fourth officials job.

It’s too much for the three officials at the pro level, You actually expect a Lino to also make possibly 10 substitutions in ( say) a 20 minute period!! 
You will be looking at 15 minutes added time every game!.
 

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41 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Yeah, I remember but FIFA claimed that too many countries don’t play rugby and therefore didn’t understand it. If it was implemented again then 10yards in any direction should apply.

It won’t happen at the pro level, far to much controversy will ensue. 

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2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Its not their job, it’s the fourth officials job.

It’s too much for the three officials at the pro level, You actually expect a Lino to also make possibly 10 substitutions in ( say) a 20 minute period!! 
You will be looking at 15 minutes added time every game!.
 

It was always their job before the advent of the ludicrous 4th official. They handled 3 substitutes fine and so a few more shouldn't be a problem. All that's needed is for the ref to make note of changes and wave them on after the linesman has checked the boots. We don't need idiot 4th officials taking an age to struggle with the technology of  putting numbers up on an electronic board. Both sets of fans should know who their players are. 

Similarly let's get rid of stupid technical areas designed to keep opposing managers and coaching staff apart. They are grown men FFS who should be able to keep themselves in check. Brian Clough, Matt Busby, Malcolm Allison etc didn't need technical areas and they were much more passionate about the game than some of today's managerial robots. 

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16 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

Its not their job, it’s the fourth officials job.

It’s too much for the three officials at the pro level, You actually expect a Lino to also make possibly 10 substitutions in ( say) a 20 minute period!! 
You will be looking at 15 minutes added time every game!.
 

What do you think happens below the pro game? Certainly not 15 minutes added time.

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10 hours ago, MarcusX said:

What do you think happens below the pro game? Certainly not 15 minutes added time.

I know what happens below the pro game, the managers shout to the ref, who calls his linesman to make the substitutions, no board ( or very rarely) no faffing about with clapping crowds, walking off slowly etc etc. Everything is fairly civil. 

Can you tell me that Pep, Klop and the like are going to sort out the light board for substitutions 5 times,  not waste time when it all happens etc. No fourth official would just create havoc, and double figure injury time would become the norm Imo. 
The pro game is a different beast than the likes of the Western League. 
Can you imagine the scenario, Jose’s team are one up with five minutes to go, he lifts the board up with no 8 on it, but actually he wants no 9 off, no fourth official, chaos ensues, minutes go by, Don’t for one second think this sort of thing wouldn’t be done!

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23 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

It was always their job before the advent of the ludicrous 4th official. They handled 3 substitutes fine and so a few more shouldn't be a problem. All that's needed is for the ref to make note of changes and wave them on after the linesman has checked the boots. We don't need idiot 4th officials taking an age to struggle with the technology of  putting numbers up on an electronic board. Both sets of fans should know who their players are. 

Similarly let's get rid of stupid technical areas designed to keep opposing managers and coaching staff apart. They are grown men FFS who should be able to keep themselves in check. Brian Clough, Matt Busby, Malcolm Allison etc didn't need technical areas and they were much more passionate about the game than some of today's managerial robots. 

The game has moved on, ( I’m sad to say) it’s now full of cheats who will do ‘anything’ to gain even the tiniest advantage. The fourth official is now as much a part of the game that 5 or more substitutions are, sponsored shirts are, keepers not being able to pick up pass backs, tv technology, time added on boards, the ball not having to leave the area from goal kicks, opposition players not able to join in a wall etc etc. 
you do also realise that the fourth official is actually the substitute referee? Or are expecting Jimmy Hill to be called from the crowd again when an official gets injured!! 
Yes, it used to be their job, but it’s a different game in 2021, and they aren’t going anywhere now, just like everything else that has changed. 

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8 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I know what happens below the pro game, the managers shout to the ref, who calls his linesman to make the substitutions, no board ( or very rarely) no faffing about with clapping crowds, walking off slowly etc etc. Everything is fairly civil. 

Can you tell me that Pep, Klop and the like are going to sort out the light board for substitutions 5 times,  not waste time when it all happens etc. No fourth official would just create havoc, and double figure injury time would become the norm Imo. 
The pro game is a different beast than the likes of the Western League. 
Can you imagine the scenario, Jose’s team are one up with five minutes to go, he lifts the board up with no 8 on it, but actually he wants no 9 off, no fourth official, chaos ensues, minutes go by, Don’t for one second think this sort of thing wouldn’t be done!

I wasn't talking Western League, even at Conference level there isn't a fourth official is there? You think those teams don't do everything in their power to win as well? Shithousery definitely occurs even down to Sunday league level yet I've never seen what you described.

Obviously Klopp and Pep won't hold the board up it'd be one of the coaches/assistants on the bench. Not saying it should happen, I just think you're being over the top that there would be 15 minutes added time - plus you can only make subs on 3 occasions not 5 and it's likely that will return to normal next season won't it?

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Back to the main point.

In rugby the referees have learned to be clear in what they say or do because they are miked up.  

I see no reason in football for the mikes not to be turned on when VAR is involved. The key difference to now needs to be that referees are then in control of the process. There needs to be an onfield decision if a goal is scored:-

 

"On field decision is goal, but can you check in the build up if there is a foul by Man city's 8 on the liverpool player"

The referee then watches it back with the VAR person (who is visible to tv viewers) and the referee then talks through the final decision with the VAR. That is the explanation to all and sundry of the decision. 

Do this and what will then happen is an ongoing learning process on both sides. Players, managers, pundits will have to change from permanent moaning to being smarter with rules and on the other side referees will be able to learn from their own and other's mistakes. 

 

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25 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Back to the main point.

In rugby the referees have learned to be clear in what they say or do because they are miked up.  

I see no reason in football for the mikes not to be turned on when VAR is involved. The key difference to now needs to be that referees are then in control of the process. There needs to be an onfield decision if a goal is scored:-

 

"On field decision is goal, but can you check in the build up if there is a foul by Man city's 8 on the liverpool player"

The referee then watches it back with the VAR person (who is visible to tv viewers) and the referee then talks through the final decision with the VAR. That is the explanation to all and sundry of the decision. 

Do this and what will then happen is an ongoing learning process on both sides. Players, managers, pundits will have to change from permanent moaning to being smarter with rules and on the other side referees will be able to learn from their own and other's mistakes. 

 

I understand the worry that, in the past the showing of an incident could incite the crowd. Crowds are different now. I just think it would be easy to turn the Mic on to explain once the decision has been made. If there has been an infringement missed by the Ref, do like Rugby TMO, tell the Ref so he can look.  My problem is you have one Ref on the pitch, he may see something one way. You then have someone watching a screen that may see the same incident completely differently, that could make a massive difference in a game.
If the fans are informed, there is more chance they will accept the decision. At the moment the wait must seem endless, you can then get the Ref looking, more waiting and the only thing you get is a final outcome, not explanation. 

The thing about players being picked up swearing isn't an issue if the Mic only goes "live" when the Ref is happy with the decision.
The 4th official , apart from sub Ref, has to take control of the ever increasing Management teams as well as subs. If you have back ups for a Ref, may as well use him.
 

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6 hours ago, The Bard said:

Back to the main point.

In rugby the referees have learned to be clear in what they say or do because they are miked up.  

I see no reason in football for the mikes not to be turned on when VAR is involved. The key difference to now needs to be that referees are then in control of the process. There needs to be an onfield decision if a goal is scored:-

 

"On field decision is goal, but can you check in the build up if there is a foul by Man city's 8 on the liverpool player"

The referee then watches it back with the VAR person (who is visible to tv viewers) and the referee then talks through the final decision with the VAR. That is the explanation to all and sundry of the decision. 

Do this and what will then happen is an ongoing learning process on both sides. Players, managers, pundits will have to change from permanent moaning to being smarter with rules and on the other side referees will be able to learn from their own and other's mistakes. 

 

100% agree. It's really not rocket science. Football is making hard work of an easy concept.

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14 hours ago, MarcusX said:

I wasn't talking Western League, even at Conference level there isn't a fourth official is there? You think those teams don't do everything in their power to win as well? Shithousery definitely occurs even down to Sunday league level yet I've never seen what you described.

Obviously Klopp and Pep won't hold the board up it'd be one of the coaches/assistants on the bench. Not saying it should happen, I just think you're being over the top that there would be 15 minutes added time - plus you can only make subs on 3 occasions not 5 and it's likely that will return to normal next season won't it?

Yes there are 4th officials at conference level, I have someone very close to me who actually does the job at times in that league!
He has told me numerous times how it’s the worst job of all, he would much rather be out in the middle.

The shit that goes on for 90 minutes between dugouts, and just general behaviour, beggars belief he has told me.

Every tiny little challenge, offside, foul etc is challenged to the extreme by both dugouts for the whole game.

 

 

 

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On 15/06/2021 at 15:39, OddBallJim said:

100% agree. It's really not rocket science. Football is making hard work of an easy concept.

Totally agree. Every other sport, rugby, cricket, tennis makes a far better job of it than football.

 

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15 hours ago, Redtucks said:

Totally agree. Every other sport, rugby, cricket, tennis makes a far better job of it than football.

 

For me it's about accountability - you hear the decisions being called by the officials in those sports. I may not agree with them, but at least I have heard the rationale behind the decision, the thought process and dialogue between the TMO and on field referee and how they came to their conclusion. Also having the incident on the big screen at a live match is much better than the poxy little screen the referee uses in football.

Honestly VAR could definitely work, it's just being orchestrated so poorly. 

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On 16/06/2021 at 20:37, Redtucks said:

But that was for dissent, not for getting away from the ball, as it should have been. Wasn't it???

 

If memory serves me correctly, it was for dissent, kicking the ball away, plus things like not retreating the 10 yards and walking off with the ball etc. 

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VAR in this tournament seems to be used totally differently to what we are used to in the Premiership.

Much less intrusive and quicker interpretation.

If that is how it should be done, then it's not so bad.

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