Football then and now- Nice debate

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wz6t

Dunno if anyone has heard it, about half hour in. Kieran Maguire vs Keith Gillespie, when was football better? 1981 v 2021.

Might need BBC IPlayer but definitely worth a listen.

[onlyotib]

I havnt listened to it and I was born after 1981 but I can probably guarantee you it was better in the 80s. The money wasn’t around to flash about. More old school tackles. Better atmosphere inside stadiums and more local players. Iv probably missed out on so much more

[GrahamC]

14 minutes ago, onlyotib said:

I havnt listened to it and I was born after 1981 but I can probably guarantee you it was better in the 80s. The money wasn’t around to flash about. More old school tackles. Better atmosphere inside stadiums and more local players. Iv probably missed out on so much more

It was just different.

Stadiums were ramshackle & dangerous, overt racism was common & trust me, by the mid 80s football was just dying on its arse. Crowds were down a lot.

However the cost to watch was proportionately much lower, the wages players received were too & the connection between a fan & player was far stronger.

Completely different game, really. 

[spudski]

It's pretty boring to watch these days as entertainment. Ok if you are into tactics and discipline.

Nearly every team plays the same way. It's rigid and so structured. It's getting more like chess every season.

Lines of players moving in unison. It's so static.

Imo...it doesn't make for good entertainment. It doesn't make you want to get out of your seat.

[Robbored]

28 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's pretty boring to watch these days as entertainment. Ok if you are into tactics and discipline.

Nearly every team plays the same way. It's rigid and so structured. It's getting more like chess every season.

Lines of players moving in unison. It's so static.

Imo...it doesn't make for good entertainment. It doesn't make you want to get out of your seat.

That depends on how attack minded a manager is and why I fondly remember the Danny Wilson era. Such great on the front foot attacking football with likes of Tinnion and Murray with Peacock or Thorpe heading the scoring charts. I was out of my seat every time Murray got the ball.

Its right that football these days is less exciting. Managers are afraid to get beaten and flair players like CoD are stifled and the team set up with a defensive mindset. It’s a real shame but sadly that’s the way it is.

Southgate is afraid to lose and watching England is just like looking at the grass grow. I really hope he unleashes Grealish tonight - the one England player who’d put the fear into the Jocks but somehow I doubt he’ll get to start.

[cidered abroad]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That depends on how attack minded a manager is and why I fondly remember the Danny Wilson era. Such great on the front foot attacking football with likes of Tinnion and Murray with Peacock or Thorpe heading the scoring charts. I was out of my seat every time Murray got the ball.

Its right that football these days is less exciting. Managers are afraid to get beaten and flair players like CoD are stifled and the team set up with a defensive mindset. It’s a real shame but sadly that’s the way it is.

Southgate is afraid to lose and watching England is just like looking at the grass grow. I really hope he unleashes Grealish tonight - the one England player who’d put the fear into the Jocks but somehow I doubt he’ll get to start.

At least now it is highly unlikely that City would field a collection of players with none who would pass a police alcohol test!

[Tinmans Love Child]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That depends on how attack minded a manager is and why I fondly remember the Danny Wilson era. Such great on the front foot attacking football with likes of Tinnion and Murray with Peacock or Thorpe heading the scoring charts. I was out of my seat every time Murray got the ball.

Its right that football these days is less exciting. Managers are afraid to get beaten and flair players like CoD are stifled and the team set up with a defensive mindset. It’s a real shame but sadly that’s the way it is.

Southgate is afraid to lose and watching England is just like looking at the grass grow. I really hope he unleashes Grealish tonight - the one England player who’d put the fear into the Jocks but somehow I doubt he’ll get to start.

I think the fear of losing outweighs the benefits of winning these days, possibly due to the financial stakes at play which are put onto the manager and therefore players.  This results in a style of play which  is more sterile.  The Kevin Keegan, Danny Wilson styles of gung ho attitudes are long gone I think, as managers don’t have the luxury anymore

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

In a Euro match earlier this week a corner was taken by a team chasing a goal and within three touches the ball was back with the team’s keeper.  That’s today’s top level football.  Possession has become an obsession even when it makes little or no sense.  Twenty touches back to the keeper, followed by a long punt downfield from the keeper.  Where’s the sense in that?  

The skill levels may have improved remarkably but entertainment?  Give me the 80s every day…

 

[BigTone]

38 minutes ago, Robbored said:

 I was out of my seat every time Murray got the ball.

 

You must have been tired after the warm up

[054123]

The elephant in the room regarding atmosphere is that it was far better when their was genuine needle in and around the grounds.

Im not condoning any kind of illegal activity but be honest with yourselves, the heightened sense of emotion you used to get at football was something else.

[Robbored]

Just now, 054123 said:

The elephant on the room regarding atmosphere is that it was far better when their was genuine needle in and around the grounds.

LJ frequently referred to the lack of atmosphere at AG but obviously didn’t link the lack of attractive football as the most obvious reason…………..

['Orns]

3 minutes ago, 054123 said:

The elephant on the room regarding atmosphere is that it was far better when their was genuine needle in and around the grounds.

Im not condoning any kind of illegal activity but be honest with yourselves, the heightened sense of emotion you used to get at football was something else.

@GrahamC makes some valid points around racism back in the day, and thankfully that is something that we never want back in the grounds (or anywhere else), but the above is so true. Needle, grudge, flat out hatred - call it what you will, but my God, it made the atmosphere

I miss those days

Give me early to mid 80s football any day of the week

[spudski]

46 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That depends on how attack minded a manager is and why I fondly remember the Danny Wilson era. Such great on the front foot attacking football with likes of Tinnion and Murray with Peacock or Thorpe heading the scoring charts. I was out of my seat every time Murray got the ball.

Its right that football these days is less exciting. Managers are afraid to get beaten and flair players like CoD are stifled and the team set up with a defensive mindset. It’s a real shame but sadly that’s the way it is.

Southgate is afraid to lose and watching England is just like looking at the grass grow. I really hope he unleashes Grealish tonight - the one England player who’d put the fear into the Jocks but somehow I doubt he’ll get to start.

The closer you get to perfection, the less entertaining it is. Imperfections and mistakes make sport more entertaining for the viewer.

I may have said this before, even though it was a touch before my formative years, imo the late 60s and 70s were the pinnacle of entertainment in sport in general.

The level of technology, physical fitness, coaching, equipment etc seemed to reach a level across the board, that gave a level of quality that was pleasing on the eye...physically and mentally. After that, it crossed into a level of better quality all round, and continued, and each year it became less entertaining as the ' perfection' levels increased, and mistakes became less.

Hope that makes sense.

There is probably some mathmatic equation that finds the balance between perfection and imperfection that shows the ultimate level of entertainment.

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

Very noticeable to me that both the football on offer, and being at AG itself, is much less exciting these days, but I accept it's probably fair to say that just about every aspect of life becomes less exhilarating as we get older.

When I was younger, anticipating going to Ashton Gate in the week, and the atmosphere of actually being there on the day, was exciting in itself; as you get older the football on offer has to make up for the lessening of excitement which decades of repetition are bound to cause - unfortunately excitement on the pitch has very much moved in the opposite direction.

Peak excitement in life generally has to be teens and early to mid 20's, so it's not surprising that was the case for me with City and Ashton Gate.

I could never have imagined that the boisterous teenager I was in the East End would one day be sat down at AG - unthinkable in itself - barely making a sound for 90 minutes, and struggling to keep an interest on what was happening on the pitch because there was so little to excite and the crowd so quiet.

That's what it has all often come down to in recent seasons though, and I now attend because I feel a compunction to do so - my support for City cemented by a lifetime habit and great memories. How often do I actually enjoy it? - not often!!

Oh well, roll on yet another new season  - come on Nige, let's see some exciting football that gets the fans animated, out of our seats occasionally, and reinvigorates our passion for BCFC!

[cityloyal473]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

The closer you get to perfection, the less entertaining it is. Imperfections and mistakes make sport more entertaining for the viewer.

I may have said this before, even though it was a touch before my formative years, imo the late 60s and 70s were the pinnacle of entertainment in sport in general.

The level of technology, physical fitness, coaching, equipment etc seemed to reach a level across the board, that gave a level of quality that was pleasing on the eye...physically and mentally. After that, it crossed into a level of better quality all round, and continued, and each year it became less entertaining as the ' perfection' levels increased, and mistakes became less.

Hope that makes sense.

There is probably some mathmatic equation that finds the balance between perfection and imperfection that shows the ultimate level of entertainment.

 

The chase for perfection in football is succinctly encapsulated by VAR.  Perfection and entertainment in football are not complementary bedfellows. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

6 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

The chase for perfection in football is succinctly encapsulated by VAR.  Perfection and entertainment in football are not complementary bedfellows. 

Agreed, it’s a shame that those marginal offsides are now a thing of the past, every fan could accept a decision against them when it’s a very close call as you know it’s a split second decision and sometimes you get them sometimes you don’t (the old “it evens itself out” mantra), I don’t think football fans want 100% correct decisions at the expense of stopping the game for 5 mins for somebody to watch video replays!

It comes back to my earlier post on the financial pressures, managers want VAR because a dodgy call by the ref could cost them their job, so they’ve pushed for it for years to get them off the hook, but it’s a double edged sword

[cidered abroad]

43 minutes ago, Robbored said:

LJ frequently referred to the lack of atmosphere at AG but obviously didn’t link the lack of attractive football as the most obvious reason…………..

That's because he was brain dead, unless he conceived the idea!

[Sweeneys Penalties]

I think life itself is less exciting tbh. I may be 58 now but even watching Question Time in the 80's when I rolled home from the Old Crown was a hot debate where passionate argument was the norm and not the exception with politicians just reading off their own scripts and not veering in any other direction.

The Miners Strike was a hot passionate affair (we'll never see the likes of that again, for better or worse).

I drove a Chevette (shove it) which was about as predictable as watching City be 2-0 up with 5 minutes left and praying you'd hang on for a draw. Now I drive a Golf, and it's predictably reliable. 

I could turn up at the likes of Aldershot, Oxford or Reading... and there was an edge which simply doesnt exist any more. I remember turning up at Huddersfield one evening recently(ish) when I was working in Sheffield. I got to the ground and asked for a meat and potato pie and I was also given a plate and a fork.....unheard of in the 80's. 

We didnt really have the "where there's blame there's a claim" culture - though you could see it arrive from the USA

Somehow I get the impression that we were more individually free then than the teenagers/early 20's group are now

 

[pongo88]

It depends upon how you define the football. Is it just what happens on the pitch or the whole match day experience? If it’s just what happens on the pitch then I believe there is no difference in the football enjoyment factor over the years. The style of play has changed in each decade, but the enjoyment has remained the same. If City are on a winning run it’s great. If City are on a losing run it’s terrible. 
 

On the other hand, if it’s the whole match day experience, then today is light years ahead of the 60s, 70s, 80s. Stadiums and facilities were total rubbish. Racism, as mentioned by @GrahamC was rife and so was the violence by hooligans masquerading as supporters. It was downright dangerous to go to some matches as, if you weren’t careful, you could end up in hospital. A lot of teams had their own hooligan group who only went to a match for the punch up. Today’s occasional violent clashes in the park after a match are just handbags at ten paces 

[Robbored]

40 minutes ago, spudski said:

The closer you get to perfection, the less entertaining it is. Imperfections and mistakes make sport more entertaining for the viewer.

I may have said this before, even though it was a touch before my formative years, imo the late 60s and 70s were the pinnacle of entertainment in sport in general.

The level of technology, physical fitness, coaching, equipment etc seemed to reach a level across the board, that gave a level of quality that was pleasing on the eye...physically and mentally. After that, it crossed into a level of better quality all round, and continued, and each year it became less entertaining as the ' perfection' levels increased, and mistakes became less.

Hope that makes sense.

There is probably some mathmatic equation that finds the balance between perfection and imperfection that shows the ultimate level of entertainment.

 

That’s impossible in any sport involving a ball! An unpredictable bounce, a poor touch or error from any player, a gust of wind……..

Btw Spudski, you always make sense.

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That’s impossible in any sport involving a ball! An unpredictable bounce, a poor touch or error from any player, a gust of wind……..

Btw Spudski, you always make sense.

When you consider the pitches being practically like billiard tables, the ball light, the kit and boots light, the tactical awareness, the physical conditioning, nutrition, rest, coaching skills etc, etc, etc...and both teams of similar circumstances, the perfections negate the errors and imperfections. Both teams cancel both out. It then becomes bland.

When you have a team with lesser all round, pitted against a team better all round ..you notice the entertainment often goes up as there are more errors. It's the errors and imperfections that make it more enjoyable to watch it seems.

Look at the technology in equipment and level of fitness and skill needed to use such equipment in F1, Golf, Tennis, ball sports in general during the 60s and 70s. Both coming together to make a happy marriage, that was entertaining. 

Cheers for the compliment

[OneCity]

The football was sluggish compared to today's pace, but more cavalier at the same time. Back then it was more art, less science. You also have to consider the pitches. They were generally awful. Nothing like today's bowling greens. I once read a match report that described the Ashton Gate turf as 'like the inside lid of a pot of glue'.

I suppose the biggest difference for me was simply matchday experience - especially the cost! I could get in the ground, buy a programme, buy a burger, and return home on the bus and still have change left over from a fiver.

Entering the ground was simply dropping a few coins in a tray at the turnstile. Now its like trudging down the line to Checkpoint Charlie, being felt up by stewards and glowered at.

The seated crowds of today seem flat and sterile compared to the terraces of old. The old east end was a sea of excitement from the moment you walked in. It was dark, smokey, and loud. You'd have to squeeze your way through the crowd and just hope you did eventually find your mates somewhere. And even if you didn't, which sometimes happened, you weren't 'confined' to a place like your compulsory seat number  today, and sitting behind the same annoying twot week in week out. You could watch the action from wherever the hell you wanted to.

The less said about the east end 'toilets' the better I suppose. I guess that's the only thing I don't really miss.

That, and the less savoury aspects, being certainly the racism and potential crowd trouble, which did sort of hang in the air particularly away from home.