Adam Nagy

[the1stknowle]

1 hour ago, Marco the red said:

A valid point, I suppose the argument is Palmer, Paterson dare I say it Martyn Woolford had moments of being absolute rolls Royce.....consistency is what is key.

I think nice moments or good games like Palmer and Pato had are one thing. But in those few games, I thought what TB did was something really special. Just bossed a midfield single-handedly. Then he got sick and hasnt been the same since but hes had moments. 

If our entire squad somehow maxed out their potential, I think Tyreeq would be the best player we have by a mile. Like you say, it's reaching those levels again and then dong it consistently. Here's hoping. But definitely a project worth persisting with.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Fair do’s.

I thought Nagy had deserted his position to rush at the German around the edge of the 6 yard box - along with a couple of his colleagues - and left space behind him which he should have been covering that the Germans then exploited.

As I’ve reached an age where I often have difficulty remembering which year I’m in and this getting towards forensic analysis of yesterday’s events, I’m happy to take your version of events. 

I really haven’t looked at the goal analytically, but with most goals conceded, bar an individual “howler”, it’s normally a mix of players making “errors” often because of poor comms, poor intent, or good play / movement from the opposition.

Re Nagy, he can be drawn too easily out of position, usually because he allows himself to be sucked to the ball.  I’ve no idea what happened last night (others have done the analysis), but he has “form” for it.  He needs to improve in this area, perhaps by being more selfish / communicating better.  The bits I watched last night I thought he appeared to be directing / instructing / communicating more than in a City shirt.  Is that normal for him in a Magyar shirt?  If so, how can we get him to do that for us?

[Supersonic Robin]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

At the moment I see his performances being reactive, that is, when the team plays well he invariably does.  When it plays poorly, he invariably plays poorly too.  It is rare to come away from a game (imho) and say “god, we were shite today, but Nagy was great and he tried to drag everyone up to his level”.  In fact I’m not sure I’ve ever said that.

This para is a great point and one of the main things for me.

I've seen City players who look notably better than those around them, even when the team plays poorly.  Nagy isn't one of them. Webster consistently looked a level above (though admittedly played for a decent City side). Brownhill and Abraham are a couple of strong examples of good players in bad City teams. Even Kalas, for much of this season, played well when the team was poor.

By no means is Nagy a bad player, but I really don't see sufficient evidence to say that he's "clearly a different class to our other players" or similar. Feels a bit like we're letting 3 good games at the Euros and a few good games per season outweigh 2 years of very average performances for us. 

Hopefully he brings his international form back to AG and Pearson will get the most out of him, but IMO he's yet to really impress in a City shirt

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

This para is a great point and one of the main things for me.

I've seen City players who look notably better than those around them, even when the team plays poorly.  Nagy isn't one of them. Webster consistently looked a level above (though admittedly played for a decent City side). Brownhill and Abraham are a couple of strong examples of good players in bad City teams. Even Kalas, for much of this season, played well when the team was poor.

By no means is Nagy a bad player, but I really don't see sufficient evidence to say that he's "clearly a different class to our other players" or similar. Feels a bit like we're letting 3 good games at the Euros and a few good games per season outweigh 2 years of very average performances for us. 

Hopefully he brings his international form back to AG and Pearson will get the most out of him, but IMO he's yet to really impress in a City shirt

It’s why I call him “Nag-puss” because he reminds me of the mice in Bagpuss - when bagpuss is asleep so are the mice in the mouse-organ, when he’s awake, so are the mice.

Depending on your age, the above might make no sense to you.

[glynriley]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s why I call him “Nag-puss” because he reminds me of the mice in Bagpuss - when bagpuss is asleep so are the mice in the mouse-organ, when he’s awake, so are the mice.

Depending on your age, the above might make no sense to you.

But Emily loved him.

[TonyTonyTony]

3 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

antagonise

....is what you do, to everyone that dares to have a different opinion to yourself. You belittle, talk down and act like the big know all.

 

As for playing Nagy as an AM - yeah i think that demonstrates your tactical acumen

[Harry]

2 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Now your post is on to deliberately selective misquotes and demands

How very quaint. 

Ive also previously extolled the benefits of Nagy as more forward for us a number of times, because that tidying up work is pivotal in allowing quick attacking and also high press and turn over. towards the end of the first pandemic season he played well in exactly that role. 

However, why let that get in the way of your posts incessant need to moan, belittle or just flat out insult , whether that's at players, performances, posters or managers because they dont follow 'your' script. 

It's like the one kid crying in the kitchen at parties all over again. 

Enjoy the rest of your day 

Good Lord. You have one very strange posting style. Even @Sixtyseconds poetry makes more sense than you.

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Fair do’s.

I thought Nagy had deserted his position to rush at the German around the edge of the 6 yard box - along with a couple of his colleagues - and left space behind him which he should have been covering that the Germans then exploited.

As I’ve reached an age where I often have difficulty remembering which year I’m in and this getting towards forensic analysis of yesterday’s events, I’m happy to take your version of events. 

Know what you mean RR.

I only know for certain what year it is because I keep seeing 'Euro 2020' come up on the telly! 

[Garland-sweden]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I really haven’t looked at the goal analytically, but with most goals conceded, bar an individual “howler”, it’s normally a mix of players making “errors” often because of poor comms, poor intent, or good play / movement from the opposition.

Re Nagy, he can be drawn too easily out of position, usually because he allows himself to be sucked to the ball.  I’ve no idea what happened last night (others have done the analysis), but he has “form” for it.  He needs to improve in this area, perhaps by being more selfish / communicating better.  The bits I watched last night I thought he appeared to be directing / instructing / communicating more than in a City shirt.  Is that normal for him in a Magyar shirt?  If so, how can we get him to do that for us?

If NP believes in him and give him a role in our midfield Im sure his confidence grow and he will play well. He played against frenchmen and germans and did it well. Sure he can do the same in our leauge.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Harry said:

100% it is yes. 
I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s certainly ‘easier’ to play a restrictive defensive midfield role in a team that is built to be very very tight and compact. 
Hungary have played with a very very defensive mindset, 5 at the back, 3 in midfield, all very well drilled and working incredibly hard to limit space for the opponent. But the space limitation is only in their own third of the pitch. They don’t press high. They essentially have 8 players defending the box. In such a system, the central DM is required to just hold their position and play within the width of the 18 yard box. 
For sure, it’s not easy. But in a championship team like ourselves, I don’t think we’d be happy adopting such a tactic, and the DM would be required to do a lot more ‘with the ball’ than has been expected of the Hungarian midfield. 

It's easier for sure- can be easier to set up to stifle than create in tactical terms, though Hungary will as I said later mix it up vs different opposition.

I digress, pretty defensive but they did get forward when possible- not seen the France game but they seemed to be getting braver vs Portugal and as well as the two goals, thought they had some good breaks vs Germany which led to nothing. Wasn't park the bus from what I saw, counterattacking perhaps moreso?

I think Nagy technically can play more positively too- still think a CM 3 of e.g. him and Williams at the base, with James central in front would be worth considering. Williams can get forward too, Nagy can move forward but of those 3 James might be most likely to get some goals from midfield? I'd also be interested to see Nagy in Brentford's 3 e.g. Back to us, that 3 with Bakinson and Massengo in whatever order- I suspect Massengo ahead of Bakinson- as first reserve. NP seems to rate Massengo quite highly.

Alternatively, you could have Massengo-Williams at the base and James in front- with Nagy first reserve and Bakinson also competing- I definitely think there is a role for Nagy here though.

That base with one in front is probably my preferred set up, can shift into a 3 or a triangle, something technically sound yet compact relatively easily with those midfielders- Palmer eg not so much.

[Better Red]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

100% it is yes. 
I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s certainly ‘easier’ to play a restrictive defensive midfield role in a team that is built to be very very tight and compact. 
Hungary have played with a very very defensive mindset, 5 at the back, 3 in midfield, all very well drilled and working incredibly hard to limit space for the opponent. But the space limitation is only in their own third of the pitch. They don’t press high. They essentially have 8 players defending the box. In such a system, the central DM is required to just hold their position and play within the width of the 18 yard box. 
For sure, it’s not easy. But in a championship team like ourselves, I don’t think we’d be happy adopting such a tactic, and the DM would be required to do a lot more ‘with the ball’ than has been expected of the Hungarian midfield. 

And that’s why his has no impact on games. 
 

Completely agree in that shape it’s a much easier role to play sit deep behind a team that sits deep.

In our team we can do that and don’t have the luxury of a player who is just there to break up play.

We have to have players who can contribute more offensive as well.

Morrell does exactly the same for Wales.

Neither City or Luton fancy either of them enough to start in the team.

The reason - they don’t impact the game enough. 
 

 

[Harry]

51 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Re your last point. 

It's not just me that thinks he should and could be more advanced. 

As demonstrated here:-

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2016/07/05/scout-report-adam-nagy-hungarys-talented-young-midfielder/

He also started as a winger. 

https://breakingthelines.com/opinion/hungarian-controller-adam-nagy/

So, in a 4231 which seems to be the preferred formation. 

You've quite easily got

James/Williams 

Massengo/Nagy/Weimann

With two protecting and then Nagy providing links, pressing and then coming back for high press counters, interceptions and distribution. 

All three will run can create space and cause havoc can defend and create. 

It's a great engine, but I'm sure that people will always find fault with that, or get the hump, because whatever. Excites me though so yay. 

 

The two links you provide are wannabe student journalists, written 4 and 6 years ago. Anyone can have an opinion. Doesn’t make it right. 
So you, and 2 student journos think he can play further forward yet you disregard the link I posted at the top of Page 6, which contains Adam Nagy HIMSELF says he’s a Number 6. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

The two links you provide are wannabe student journalists, written 4 and 6 years ago. Anyone can have an opinion. Doesn’t make it right. 
So you, and 2 student journos think he can play further forward yet you disregard the link I posted at the top of Page 6, which contains Adam Nagy HIMSELF says he’s a Number 6. 

Second one has a bit more credibility IMO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I digress, some useful technical stats from his tournament- and remember the teams he was up against are a higher level than the Championship, albeit he was also in his preferred shape.

3 game average.

Passing

• Accurate per game- 29.7 (82%).
• Accurate own half- 22 (88.0%)
• Accurate opposition half- 7.7 (70.0).

Definitely a bias towards playing deeper but the setup and opposition should also be considered- his passing seems technically good enough to me. 70% or 7/11 accurate in opposition half vs those 3 opponents is perfectly respectable, albeit not spectacular.

He has good defensive stats, we know that.

Happy enough with dribbles- dribbles can be a sign of positive intent albeit one of his was round some Portugal players deep in his own half IIRC.

1.3 successful per game, ie 67%, probably attempted 2 per game.

He was also dribbled past 1.3 per game, or 67%- so the reverse.

Still don't think our setup that we've generally seen will gain the optimum.

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Second one has a bit more credibility IMO.

Not as much as the horses mouth 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Spot on that breaking the lines article.

His movement helps create space for low vertical passes from the defence to the forwards. It happened a couple of times in the first half of last nights game.

I agree with what it says about Nagy's intelligence. I think there is a lot of good things that probably goes unnoticed.

I think in a 4 at the back system he is probably best in the double pivot of a 4231.

It’s interesting that for the best part of 18 months Hungary have played a 352 variant.

For City, I think much will depend on who plays in midfield with him.  

If it goes unnoticed, how do you know it’s good?

Im really pleased he’s had a good tournament.  Get a couple of weeks off, enjoy his new baby, and come back with the bit between his teeth and see what happens.  But wouldn’t surprise me if we see a fairly similar Nagy to what we’ve seen for a season and a half.

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Marco the red said:

I think having the likes of Williams and James will help.

Let’s hope so…which is really what I was implying in sentence 2.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think he will be sold anyway. As people say on here, when its a rumour from abroad it seems to be more reliable

What rumour from abroad?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I thought there was a rumour of Empoli interest from some Italian twitter journalist

Depends where it comes from. L’Equipe is pretty reliable.

[bcfc01]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

Not as much as the horses mouth 

You ask any player what his favourite position is, and then see where he is selected to play.

Players aren't always the best judge of their most effective position on the pitch.

Not saying that Nagy is or isn't correct, just a general observation.

 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, bcfc01 said:

You ask any player what his favourite position is, and then see where he is selected to play.

Players aren't always the best judge of their most effective position on the pitch.

Not saying that Nagy is or isn't correct, just a general observation.

 

But he’ll have much more of an idea than a random Italian student blogger wannabe journo.
Not quite sure why that particular link has been posted about 25 times since Nagy joined and the kid writing it has no more football credentials than you or I yet seems to be held up as some sort of gospel. 

In fact, if we really wanna break down the credentials of the author of that particular article, he wrote it as an 18 year old kid from Milan, from his student halls at Warwickshire university, not from the privileged position of watching Nagy live for the 16/17 season at Bologna, which isn’t even his team. 
I’d guess he likely watched a couple of games on Bein Sports, whereas I’ve had the rather more extensive experience of watching him for 60+ games (half of them in person). 
Not sure why this article is some kind of gospel to some?? Strikes me as a little odd, that some people need the back-up of a totally random novice nobody to affirm their opinion.  

[Davefevs]

Think some people see a critique / analysis of a player they rate as some form of dent to their pride.  Some people go so “all-in” on a City player, that if the player doesn’t hit the heights they thought, they have to over-compensate in their defence of them, even when some posters aren’t even being that critical.

The best City player can play poorly, the poorest player can have a one-off stormer.  The ability to see that and evaluate a changing trend or not is the key.  It’s why scouts watch players many, many times, to reach a consensus.

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think some people see a critique / analysis of a player they rate as some form of dent to their pride.  Some people go so “all-in” on a City player, that if the player doesn’t hit the heights they thought, they have to over-compensate in their defence of them, even when some posters aren’t even being that critical.

The best City player can play poorly, the poorest player can have a one-off stormer.  The ability to see that and evaluate a changing trend or not is the key.  It’s why scouts watch players many, many times, to reach a consensus.

Fair comment. People tend to like or dislike a player and disregard evidence that doesn't support their view.

Whether analysing Nagy or any other player at our level though you are going to find they are good at some things and not so good at others.

Nagy is getting the attention in this case but you could analyse all of our players and end up concluding we need to get rid of the lot! Probably not wise to expect perfection.

So the question is do we reject a player because he is not good at everything or do we use him in a way that maximises his strengths?

Fortunately that is NP's decision not mine!

[bcfc01]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

But he’ll have much more of an idea than a random Italian student blogger wannabe journo.
Not quite sure why that particular link has been posted about 25 times since Nagy joined and the kid writing it has no more football credentials than you or I yet seems to be held up as some sort of gospel. 

In fact, if we really wanna break down the credentials of the author of that particular article, he wrote it as an 18 year old kid from Milan, from his student halls at Warwickshire university, not from the privileged position of watching Nagy live for the 16/17 season at Bologna, which isn’t even his team. 
I’d guess he likely watched a couple of games on Bein Sports, whereas I’ve had the rather more extensive experience of watching him for 60+ games (half of them in person). 
Not sure why this article is some kind of gospel to some?? Strikes me as a little odd, that some people need the back-up of a totally random novice nobody to affirm their opinion.  

As I said, it was a general observation on footballers sometimes expressing their preferred position rather than the position they are actually better at playing. With Nagy, the difference in his game between Hungary and City is stark, but the different environment, different players, different playing patterns, and different levels has to be taken into account.

But, for me, he is equally adept at DM as he is playing in a more forward role.

 

 

 

[KegCity]

23 hours ago, RedRock said:

I agree. Thought he was magnificent.

But …. looking at Germany’s second. Did he lose his position due to his eagerness to close down the opponents on the far side of his area ….. leaving the German in space on the side Nagy was supposed to be shielding? 
 

Ultra critical may be…but if you were a professional coach maybe you wouldn’t be happy with that. 

He definitely did, and I wouldn't be happy as a coach, but it was one mistake in 90 minutes against Germany. I'll take the other 89 minutes as a good sign for Nagy next season.

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, chinapig said:

Fair comment. People tend to like or dislike a player and disregard evidence that doesn't support their view.

Whether analysing Nagy or any other player at our level though you are going to find they are good at some things and not so good at others.

Nagy is getting the attention in this case but you could analyse all of our players and end up concluding we need to get rid of the lot! Probably not wise to expect perfection.

So the question is do we reject a player because he is not good at everything or do we use him in a way that maximises his strengths?

Fortunately that is NP's decision not mine!

Absolutely.

Re penultimate para, indeed, should be a) coach them to improve their deficiencies and / or b) play them in a role to suit their strengths / hide their weaknesses.  If you can’t do either / both of those, move them on.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, KegCity said:

He definitely did, and I wouldn't be happy as a coach, but it was one mistake in 90 minutes against Germany. I'll take the other 89 minutes as a good sign for Nagy next season.

It was indeed and I don’t think anyone who watched the game (even Harry) is saying it detracted from a good performance, it’s just an observation.  The issue for Nagy when playing in a City shirt is the regularity he does similar, he’s quite ill-disciplined in “chasing the ball”, losing team structure, runners etc.  If he can maintain discipline v Germany, he ought to be able to do it against Coventry, where I was actually quite embarrassed how easily he got sucked to the ball and got picked off….it was time after time.  He got hauled off at h-t….and rightly so.

He strikes me as an intelligent chap, he should be learning and improving.  Maybe he has?

[KegCity]

22 hours ago, Davefevs said:

In your opinion.  When I see him being the catalyst for improving the team or the midfield’s performance I will reflect my opinion accordingly.  At the moment I see his performances being reactive, that is, when the team plays well he invariably does.  When it plays poorly, he invariably plays poorly too.  It is rare to come away from a game (imho) and say “god, we were shite today, but Nagy was great and he tried to drag everyone up to his level”.  In fact I’m not sure I’ve ever said that.

How does that correlation work for Joe Morrell, because some posters (not you per se), say his performance don’t count?  I’m being facetious, but many OTIB posters make up their mind and then don’t change it based on evidence, whether that is positive or negative.

 

Yep, in my opinion. I'd put Massengo up there as well for raw ability but Nagy was the best midfielder of last season for me. He has the qualities of COD and other players in that he runs all over the place but he can also actually play football. Can talk about Williams and ifs and buts, just from the games I've seen him play Nagy has always looked a good player in his defending and passing vision. If he can sort his positional discipline out there doesn't seem to be an obvious flaw in his game.

Can you twist that comment round and say when Nagy doesn't play well, the team doesn't play well? I wouldn't say that I've ever seen him drag the team to his level, I've certainly seen him be the best of a bad bunch. He's certainly not perfect but with the right players around him and in a more confident side I think he'd be a top championship player (as seen for Hungary where he's stepped up).

Joe Morrell I can't comment on, with the greatest of respect to him I just don't really care. No longer our player and can't get into Luton's side whereas Nagy is our player and actually plays. 

[KegCity]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

It was indeed and I don’t think anyone who watched the game (even Harry) is saying it detracted from a good performance, it’s just an observation.  The issue for Nagy when playing in a City shirt is the regularity he does similar, he’s quite ill-disciplined in “chasing the ball”, losing team structure, runners etc.  If he can maintain discipline v Germany, he ought to be able to do it against Coventry, where I was actually quite embarrassed how easily he got sucked to the ball and got picked off….it was time after time.  He got hauled off at h-t….and rightly so.

He strikes me as an intelligent chap, he should be learning and improving.  Maybe he has?

It certainly happens and I'm not trying to say that's not something that needs work, I'm just choosing to focus on the good performances under Pearson and Johnson rather than the poor ones under Holden. I would imagine it's a coaching and tactics issue as much as it is about player discipline, I would imagine coaching and tactics were better under Pearson and Holden.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Yep, in my opinion. I'd put Massengo up there as well for raw ability but Nagy was the best midfielder of last season for me. He has the qualities of COD and other players in that he runs all over the place but he can also actually play football. Can talk about Williams and ifs and buts, just from the games I've seen him play Nagy has always looked a good player in his defending and passing vision. If he can sort his positional discipline out there doesn't seem to be an obvious flaw in his game.

Can you twist that comment round and say when Nagy doesn't play well, the team doesn't play well? I wouldn't say that I've ever seen him drag the team to his level, I've certainly seen him be the best of a bad bunch. He's certainly not perfect but with the right players around him and in a more confident side I think he'd be a top championship player (as seen for Hungary where he's stepped up).

Joe Morrell I can't comment on, with the greatest of respect to him I just don't really care. No longer our player and can't get into Luton's side whereas Nagy is our player and actually plays. 

All fair comments / opinion.  For me, the Nagy of say Cardiff (a) tailed off massively as the season progressed…but so did a lot of players.  I just saw him not make passing options like he used to, a key part of his armoury….that frustrated the hell out of me, because it made our FBs go channel every time….where we had a useless lump up top who couldn’t muster an ounce of effort.  So it had a major impact on our play.  Same with Lansbury, neither doing the hard yards to support whilst team mates in possession.

As I keep saying, I think he’s a decent player.  I’m happy for him to be part of our squad and fight / earn his place like everyone else.

If I went through every squad member I could give a +/- for each of them, even the ones I really rate, e.g.

Bentley - great shot stopper / doesn’t command area, let’s ball come too deep into area before kicking

Dasilva - great touch, uses body well defensively / doesn’t pick a target for crosses, just hits an area

Vyner - athletic, comfortable on the ball, relatively quick / not commanding, hits diags too early (can be more composed)

etc

2 minutes ago, KegCity said:

It certainly happens and I'm not trying to say that's not something that needs work, I'm just choosing to focus on the good performances under Pearson and Johnson rather than the poor ones under Holden. I would imagine it's a coaching and tactics issue as much as it is about player discipline, I would imagine coaching and tactics were better under Pearson and Holden.

Let’s hope so.