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Laurel Hubbard


Silvio Dante
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This thread has gone off in a total bollocks tangent.

To suggest the victim can claim a hate crime and that’s an open and shut case is nonsense. Without evidence it’s word against word I.e the same rules as any other offence. Do you see anyone going down for GBH on the basis the victim said “He broke my jaw”, without evidence? Total Horseshit

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On 23/06/2021 at 13:15, Silvio Dante said:

The only other point I have on that is this.

Pre-pubescent males and females I’d guess are less likely to transition (apologies if I’ve got that wrong) - it might be lack of parental understanding, medical staff not being happy they’re mentally old enough to make the decision or even the person themselves not being sure that’s what they want at that stage - all sorts going on with everyone at that age and nobody can really say they were sure who they were in every respect at age 11.

So, it wouldn’t then be excluding just post pubescent TG women - but in practice I’d imagine excluding all TG women. I think your suggestion has a lot of logic in it, but we probably have to call it what it is - which is practical total exclusion (noted from selected strength based sports only).


 

Some children are given puberty blockers, and encouraged to transition. There is a massive debate about it in US and certain countries where their parents may not want their children to be gay (I read the other day that this includes countries like Iran because of their views on homosexuality). I'm not sure what the situation is in UK but some individuals have been 'cancelled' because of their concerns regarding the safe guarding of children.

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Puberty blockers given to kids?

An absolute disgrace.

Wouldn’t trust my kids to cook meal, let alone trust them to make a life altering decision.

I question the morals of any person encouraging this sort of thing.

If a child feels like they are in the wrong body. Wait until they are an adult.

Edited by Riaz
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19 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Some children are given puberty blockers, and encouraged to transition. There is a massive debate about it in US and certain countries where their parents may not want their children to be gay (I read the other day that this includes counters like Iran because of their views on homosexuality). I'm not sure what the situation is in UK but some individuals have been 'cancelled' because of their concerns regarding the safe guarding of children.

 

This is the situation in the UK. A Court of Appeal case is being held to determine the legality of offering puberty blocking drugs to under-17s. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57573428

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12 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

You've never really talked to a trans person in any great length have you? 

Ask any trans person what puberty was like when they know they're not their gender of birth

Transmen and periods and transwomen and irreversible voice break are just two facets of literally facing your greatest fears and your body trapping you in a certain way, forever. 

Imagine going through that literally on your own, with no help because you're written off as being 'just a kid' and being stuck with permenant problems that you will have to face every single day from then on until the day you die. 

Puberty blockers give choice and currently that's all there is, medically to prevent that. 

 

Bell vs Tavi if not over turned or further ruled on affects Gillick Comptency. Which would have massive affects for all youth services across the uk. Imagine say a teenager who needed a morning after pill or just contraception in general, as they are both hormonal tablets and need parental or guardian permission to have it. Same with any drug addiction or homelessness problems amongst other things

Your kids have then just their own body autonomy.  Progress it is not and creates massive problems where there's previously been none. 

Fun stuff all in and certainly food for thought. 

I’ve had a read of this thread and it’s been very interesting reading. I appreciate it’s obviously very emotive for you, but I really think you should try and stop the ad hominem attacks when you reply. It’ll strengthen your argument so much more.

With this point - puberty blocking treatment being compared to a morning after pill.. Doesn’t that trivialise it to a ridiculous level? Very weak comparison I think. 

At what age do you think children should be able to receive puberty blockers? 

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1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Good morning. 

To answer your post. Gillick Competency is not a 'weak argument' Its a process which determines whether a child is competent enough to make their own decisions regarding treatment. 

That includes access to services and hormonal treatments such as the pill, the morning after pill and puberty blockers as well as being able to consent to treatment such as substance misuse treatment etc. 

Puberty blockers until the original Bell vs Tavistock ruling came literally under this remit, and what has been challenged is this. 

Puberty Blockers are not hormone replacement therapy and generally the drugs used for this are not for intended purpose, IE the drugs maybe for something like endemetrosis treatment for example. 

Thus by barring this we as society have potentially barred kids treatment for a number of things including those mentioned because of the hyperbole. 

Puberty blockers delay the onset of puberty giving space for people to help make a decision whilst under treatment and with a diagnosis about what they want to do, before going through irreversible changes with puberty

The good law project have already challenged original parts of the ruling and won, so that parents of kids can give consent without the need to apply for high court judges to decide.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2BI2I9

This appeal will look at the rest of the judgment. 

There's a decent explainer here which looks at gillick and how that applies in this case https://wordpress.aber.ac.uk/law-and-criminology/2020/12/01/bell-v-tavistock-a-quick-explainer/

Ok that's great - but to answer what I actually asked, at what age do you think children should be able to receive puberty blockers? 

I think that the morning after pill being compared to life altering treatment is trivialising it to a huge extent. I agree that they probably shouldn't be part of the same ruling as it's clearly a very different comparison. 

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

PS also perfectly calm, cheers and no ad hominem attacks. I've been pretty clear with explainers, law, links and other such things.  I dont really have to because some of the responses here could could be considered transphobic IE keep badgering and pestering the trans person in the thread to justify their's and other existences. Some of the responses in here have been vile. 

Anyway have a great rest of your day. 

 

You do come across as quite hostile and emotionally invested. I can understand that though as it's clearly a huge issue for you. I think though that if you come out swinging from the outset, I know you'll deny you did this but your posts are filled with little barbs and attacks, you're bound to get more hostile responses.

In context - this thread is filled with people who will be (at a guess) mostly straight males who probably don't understand the issues the trans community face at a personal level. I know I don't.

Lots of them will be fathers also who will not like the idea of, at face value, puberty blockers being given to people (they'll imagine their own children) who they will feel aren't emotionally mature enough to make informed choices. 

That is why you will feel the responses in this thread are ignorant or insensitive, but you have to try and empathise. 

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12 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

In short, as detailed, continually harrassing a trans person as has been done numerous times, is transphobic.

As already detailed the stuff in this thread affects my real life on a daily basis, and the onus is not on me to provide empathy for aggression or comments that are offensive and vile. 

Regarding Father's etc, the whole point of gillick is that they have literally no say in the matter and responsibility for body autonomy is to the child should they be competent to understand and make decisions for themselves. 

It's pretty straightforward. I get you may not like it but there's no grey areas here. 

If I find it ill post an explainer from a load of science types who have a way better understanding of it than me :)

I'll be first to admit I know very little about this and hence ducked out of the conversation early on. I can understand why people find the thought of a child making such life changing decisions hard to comprehend but I guess some people do just know they are in the wrong body, or know what they want. I've suffered with body dysmorphia (and still do occasionally) and probably undiagnosed bullemia or some sort of eating disorder, so although different I can slightly begin to imagine how it feels. I do believe you would come across better if you could take the emotion out of the post before you respond. It's clearly a subject that's very close to you, but then it comes across as agressive and defensive and leads to conflict. I don't think anyone has harrased you on here and I certainly haven't seen anything transphobic.

It's sad that I've seen a lot of people criticising Laurel though, I still refer back to one of the early posts that it's important to "attack" the rules if you disagree rather than the person. Laurel hasn't done anything wrong as far as I can see, it doesn't appear that she woke up one day and decided she'd be more competitive in weightlifting if she was female like some people seem to suggest and trivialise the idea of trans-athletes.

I still believe the rules need looking at and there's much more to the debate around trans-athletes competing in the existing male/female categories. Particularly when it comes to combat sports as well

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26 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

In short, as detailed, continually harrassing a trans person as has been done numerous times, is transphobic.

How have you been harassed in this thread? I’m not being flippant, but I’ve read this thread and I can’t see any examples. Can you point it out? 

26 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

As already detailed the stuff in this thread affects my real life on a daily basis, and the onus is not on me to provide empathy for aggression or comments that are offensive and vile. 
 

What’s been said that’s ‘offensive and vile’? Again, not trying to be flippant. 

26 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Regarding Father's etc, the whole point of gillick is that they have literally no say in the matter and responsibility for body autonomy is to the child should they be competent to understand and make decisions for themselves. 

It's pretty straightforward. I get you may not like it but there's no grey areas here

If I find it ill post an explainer from a load of science types who have a way better understanding of it than me :)

Ah. You’re doing that thing you’ve continually accused myself and many others of - telling us how we feel! 

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1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

As already detailed the stuff in this thread affects my real life on a daily basis, and the onus is not on me to provide empathy for aggression or comments that are offensive and vile. 

How many people knew you were Trans at the beginning of this thread? A handful i suspect. Its not the first time you have mentioned the challenges in your daily life, but that doesn't give you the justification to go into rage mode to strangers on the internet. Had people known you were Trans i doubt that would have changed many of the responses in this thread, but you may have got more empathy. However with the attitude you display that's unlikely.

I've read through this thread again from the start and the only person throwing insults about is you. 

Nobody has been aggressive, other than you. You called me a Bigot for expressing an opinion you disagreed with. You basically judged me as being prejudiced, which is not true at all.

I really couldn't care less whether you are Trans or anything else. I do have empathy for the difficulties you face in life, but you wont get people onside by trashing them or their opinions in such an arrogant and rude way.

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21 hours ago, Riaz said:

Puberty blockers given to kids?

An absolute disgrace.

Wouldn’t trust my kids to cook meal, let alone trust them to make a life altering decision.

I question the morals of any person encouraging this sort of thing.

If a child feels like they are in the wrong body. Wait until they are an adult.

It's child abuse and totally disgusting. 

Bit like Sweden forcing boys to play with Girls toys in Nursery and Girls to play with Boys toys. Pretty awful.

Leave our kids alone, let them decide when they are adults and can make a rational decision. 

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1 minute ago, 2015 said:

Bit like Sweden forcing boys to play with Girls toys in Nursery and Girls to play with Boys toys. Pretty awful.

Any evidence of that?

From what I gather, in Swedish nurseries they have all the usual toys and just let the kids play with whatever they want.

How's that an "awful" thing?

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46 minutes ago, 2015 said:

It's child abuse and totally disgusting. 

Bit like Sweden forcing boys to play with Girls toys in Nursery and Girls to play with Boys toys. Pretty awful.

Leave our kids alone, let them decide when they are adults and can make a rational decision. 

Forcing?! 😂

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3 hours ago, 2015 said:

It's child abuse and totally disgusting. 

Bit like Sweden forcing boys to play with Girls toys in Nursery and Girls to play with Boys toys. Pretty awful.

Leave our kids alone, let them decide when they are adults and can make a rational decision. 

To be fair, kids will play with what they want and can’t be forced.

One of my daughters, has always gone for what we would call “boys” toys. And she likes football etc.

Like all my kids, she will have the freedom to be the person she is… 

But giving a child puberty blockers or any other ####, i agree, it’s disgusting.

I know many girls who were Tom-Boys growing up but most grow out of it. 

So it would be ridiculous, to do such drastic life changing things to a child, when you can’t trust a child choose what they want for tea!

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On 24/06/2021 at 17:07, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

You've never really talked to a trans person in any great length have you? 

Ask any trans person what puberty was like when they know they're not their gender of birth

Transmen and periods and transwomen and irreversible voice break are just two facets of literally facing your greatest fears and your body trapping you in a certain way, forever. 

Imagine going through that literally on your own, with no help because you're written off as being 'just a kid' and being stuck with permenant problems that you will have to face every single day from then on until the day you die. 

Puberty blockers give choice and currently that's all there is, medically to prevent that. 

 

Bell vs Tavi if not over turned or further ruled on affects Gillick Comptency. Which would have massive affects for all youth services across the uk. Imagine say a teenager who needed a morning after pill or just contraception in general, as they are both hormonal tablets and need parental or guardian permission to have it. Same with any drug addiction or homelessness problems amongst other things

Your kids have then just their own body autonomy.  Progress it is not and creates massive problems where there's previously been none. 

Fun stuff all in and certainly food for thought. 

I get that trans people have an extremely difficult childhood. I’m not going to minimise that.

But I’m a dad of 4 and i can tell you, you can’t take anything a child says seriously, not a younger child especially. 
 

Children come out with all sorts of stuff. And many girls for example, are Tom boys growing up and grow out of it.


I’m not comfortable, which such drastic measures on the say so of a child. It’s a massive decision too big for a child 

Edited by Riaz
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On 21/06/2021 at 14:52, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

So perhaps leave your privilege, bigotry and outrage for something to actually get worked up over, or instead, ya know carry on trying to demonise trans people, specifically transwomen during Pride month 

It’s there in black and white @RalphMilnesLeftFoot.

Dont want to apologise - that’s fine. However your character is plain for all to see.

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Simples.

If we are going down the full equality route, then do it. 

Just have divisions based on weight not gender. 

 

Still not sure I ‘get’ the equal pension age mind, given women on average live 4.5 years older then men, but still. Maybe one day equality will evolve whereby men are given an equal opportunity over longevity of life, which has to be one of the most fundamental rights, shirley? 

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21 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

So, you're on the selective misquote side of things now  with some baiting and insults as well. Thanks 

I stand by my original post in context post on page 1   and not your selective out of context purposeful misquote, designed to  mislead. 

It’s there in black and white. You denying calling me a bigot when I have literally requoted you, makes you look ridiculous. Selective misquote my arse - you have been called out and you are not decent enough to admit it. Pathetic.

I suspect it’s not your Gender that brings conflict to you life if that is how you normally behave to other people. 

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33 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Interesting what the coach said about trans women competing in women’s rugby. I guess they’ll carry on until a woman is killed. 

A very interesting discussion. 
 

 

I think World Rugby's rulings make little sense when they've said this:

Transmen are permitted to participate in men’s contact rugby. 
https://www.world.rugby/news/591776/world-rugby-approves-updated-transgender-participation-guidelines

If the reasoning is that a transwoman would be more powerful and could "kill" somebody, then the risk of a death would be even greater for a transman competing in men's rugby. 

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41 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

I think World Rugby's rulings make little sense when they've said this:

Transmen are permitted to participate in men’s contact rugby. 
https://www.world.rugby/news/591776/world-rugby-approves-updated-transgender-participation-guidelines

If the reasoning is that a transwoman would be more powerful and could "kill" somebody, then the risk of a death would be even greater for a transman competing in men's rugby. 

Yes, makes no sense whatsoever. 

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4 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Antagonising and pestering a trans person in a thread about trans people continually is not the greatest look, especially when I've clearly explained the position and also mentioned previously what has been said. 

Please dont reply to me again. It'd be much appreciated. 

I think I get to decide whether I reply or not.

Congrats for playing the victim card (again).  Let’s me be crystal clear to you - I’m calling you out for being rude, arrogant and also lying. Nothing whatsoever to do with your gender but that doesn’t suit your agenda does it? 

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However this is portrayed at root:

Somebody who has been born a man has taken the women's weightlifting slot in the NZ Olympic team.

And as a consequence:

Somebody who has been born a woman has missed out on the woman's weightlifting slot in the NZ Olympic team.

I would say that that isn't a fair outcome.

 

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17 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I think I get to decide whether I reply or not.

Congrats for playing the victim card (again).  Let’s me be crystal clear to you - I’m calling you out for being rude, arrogant and also lying. Nothing whatsoever to do with your gender but that doesn’t suit your agenda does it? 

Exactly. No one has any issue with anything other than how RMLF chooses to reply. Always rude, confrontational and negative.

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3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Exactly. No one has any issue with anything other than how RMLF chooses to reply. Always rude, confrontational and negative.

Indeed. Even more incredible the denial of calling me a bigot. Once again - as a reminder :

On 21/06/2021 at 14:52, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

So perhaps leave your privilege, bigotry and outrage for something to actually get worked up over, or instead, ya know carry on trying to demonise trans people, specifically transwomen during Pride month 

In response i get the usual im being mean to Trans people - no - im highlighting the fact you are acting like an arse.

A classic case of this, methinks

 

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