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1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I don’t know whether you have ever been to Berlin, but it is one of the most laidback, bohemian European towns I can think of - it’s almost as if the word originated there.
Far right and neo-naziism are not terms I would associate with Berlin.

Having said that, you may be surprised that the lovely town of Dresden is also pretty laid back - despite its unfortunate political leanings.

I have indeed.  5 times and counting. Hence why I felt it important to point it out that it’s not a place where nazism or any far right behaviour would be tolerated. 

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16 hours ago, GodEmperor Palpatine said:

This is a laughable post, made even more dumb by your last sentence.

You do know the lyrics to 'Flower of Scotland' right? The Scots still sing that one, even as recently as last week.

(I quite like the tune to Flower of Scotland for the record)

I’m glad I was able to provide a laugh yesterday, probably overshadowed by the Denmark Wales game, but there you go 😂

Seriously, I’ve got no problem at all with patriotism and patriotic songs that celebrate a country’s achievements and what it means to be English, Scottish, whatever. My preference is that they are not always about wars and battles, but that’s just me.

But there’s a distinction: the Scots sing Flower of Scotland anywhere, anytime, to anyone, and it’s about being Scottish.  Whereas we dress up caricatures in the Sun, or sing 10 GB, only when we play Germany. It’s about having a dig at the Germans. I don’t see that as patriotic.

My post was a response to someone asking why when they hear England fans singing in a pub the songs always seem so cringeworthy when Scots and Welsh fans songs seem so positive. I was just suggesting that the reason might be that the songs the Welsh and Scots sing are usually ones that focus on Scotland or Wales whereas ours seem to focus on Germany (or Ireland). And even worse, Germany 80 years ago. 

If people want to sing them, fine. I just agree with that description of cringeworthy. And don’t think they are in the slightest patriotic. 

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11 minutes ago, lenred said:

I have indeed.  5 times and counting. Hence why I felt it important to point it out that it’s not a place where nazism or any far right behaviour would be tolerated. 

You may already have done so, but if you haven’t yet, next time you are there take a short trip to the nearby town of Potsdam - just a short train trip.

A wonderful little town, the highlight being the Sanssouci Palace, but a very nice place to spend a day.

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20 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I’m glad I was able to provide a laugh yesterday, probably overshadowed by the Denmark Wales game, but there you go 😂

Seriously, I’ve got no problem at all with patriotism and patriotic songs that celebrate a country’s achievements and what it means to be English, Scottish, whatever. My preference is that they are not always about wars and battles, but that’s just me.

But there’s a distinction: the Scots sing Flower of Scotland anywhere, anytime, to anyone, and it’s about being Scottish.  Whereas we dress up caricatures in the Sun, or sing 10 GB, only when we play Germany. It’s about having a dig at the Germans. I don’t see that as patriotic.

My post was a response to someone asking why when they hear England fans singing in a pub the songs always seem so cringeworthy when Scots and Welsh fans songs seem so positive. I was just suggesting that the reason might be that the songs the Welsh and Scots sing are usually ones that focus on Scotland or Wales whereas ours seem to focus on Germany (or Ireland). And even worse, Germany 80 years ago. 

If people want to sing them, fine. I just agree with that description of cringeworthy. And don’t think they are in the slightest patriotic. 

You may be aware of the German paper Bild. It recently carried a headline title. From German its translates to ITS PHWOARR, and the article features a large chested model. The topic is Germany v England. 

Cringeworthy is a perception, yours. Nationalistic songs at football are a feature of Countries across Europe. Do you really think the Albanians, Croats, Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Spanish, Turks don't have the odd dodgy song!

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7 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

You may already have done so, but if you haven’t yet, next time you are there take a short trip to the nearby town of Potsdam - just a short train trip.

A wonderful little town, the highlight being the Sanssouci Palace, but a very nice place to spend a day.

Yep planned to go there last year but time didn’t allow in the end as I was showing a friend around a lot of sights I’d already seen. If you’re interested in the GDR and it’s history I’d highly recommend the Stasi museum (take a guided tour if you can) and then reading Stasiland by Anna Funder. Potsdam and Dresden feature a lot as well as Berlin and it’s an incredible read.  The Deutschland ‘83, ‘86 and ‘89 series were all filmed there in part also. A great watch again if that period of history interests you - available still on All4 I think. 

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14 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

The song was actually written during World War 2. Schoolchildren used to sing it

Ha, wonderful.

So all the incredibly animated outrage shown by some on this thread about a silly, harmless - even childish - song being 'disrespectful to grandparents who would hate it' etc is shown to be truly ridiculous.

No, they sang it themselves, and with gusto!

People who rush to condemn on a false premise simply have no idea what they are talking about, apparently just determined to take false offence on behalf of others.

The Germans (not exactly noted for their sense of humour) find it amusing too, so, silly song though it may be, really what is the problem?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Ha, wonderful.

So all the incredibly animated outrage shown by some on this thread about a silly, harmless - even childish - song being 'disrespectful to grandparents who would hate it' etc is shown to be truly ridiculous.

No, they sang it themselves, and with gusto!

People who rush to condemn on a false premise simply have no idea what they are talking about, apparently just determined to take false offence on behalf of others.

The Germans (not exactly noted for their sense of humour) find it amusing too, so, silly song though it may be, really what is the problem?

 

 

I’m not sure this is the slam dunk you think it is. They sang it during the war, not at a football match.

I don’t think people singing it should be banned but I don’t think they’re the brightest. I also imagine a section of them would have been booing the knee in order to ‘keep politics out of football’ which just highlights the moral mess around all of this.

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19 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You may be aware of the German paper Bild. It recently carried a headline title. From German its translates to ITS PHWOARR, and the article features a large chested model. The topic is Germany v England. 

Cringeworthy is a perception, yours. Nationalistic songs at football are a feature of Countries across Europe. Do you really think the Albanians, Croats, Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Spanish, Turks don't have the odd dodgy song!

 

It's wanky whoever does it. 

However, the majority of us on this forum are English, hence why we are discussing its wankiness in relation to England supporters cheapening the experience of a war that ended 76 years ago, by singing songs from the war as some sort of "bants". 

If you think harking on about WW2 during football matches is fine, great. I am one that finds it - and the behaviour of quite a lot of England fans - cringe-making. One of the many things that makes non-football fans think all football fans are morons.

As I'm not an Albanian or a Croat, or speak the lingo, I don't hold that many opinions about their fans providing they don't harass black players.

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1 hour ago, mozo said:

It's not for you, why?

I'd rather personally not chant about something regarding World War 2, as it was horrific for both sides and many good German people were killed, and that was something that happened a long time ago now that my generation had nothing to do with. Time to move on basically.

However, I don't think those who do chant it should be banned from Football matches, just strikes me as another case of shaming those who haven't moved on with the super PC society we now have. 

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17 hours ago, Jim Davey said:

definatley better country to  grow up in in the 1970s ,compared to now 

Yeah, they were great days 3 day weeks, power cuts, Vietnam, IRA Bombings, and Maggie Thatcher.

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36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You may be aware of the German paper Bild. It recently carried a headline title. From German its translates to ITS PHWOARR, and the article features a large chested model. The topic is Germany v England. 

Cringeworthy is a perception, yours. Nationalistic songs at football are a feature of Countries across Europe. Do you really think the Albanians, Croats, Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Spanish, Turks don't have the odd dodgy song!

Of course. I’m not suggesting for a moment that other countries don’t have their own versions of the Sun or that other countries don’t have songs that are about their dislike of others rather than pride in themselves. Of course not. But the thread and the post I was responding to were about England fans and their song.

Yes, I acknowledged it was my perception. It’s a perception others have (see above) and I said I agree with it.

For what it’s worth, I have a similar view around songs at City games. Far rather hear the ones that are about City and about our players, rather than the ones that are about how much we hate the opponents. Not always - some can be clever and funny, but the endless ‘xxx is a s#### I want to go home’ does get rather tedious sometimes!

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21 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

I’m not sure this is the slam dunk you think it is. They sang it during the war, not at a football match.

I don’t think people singing it should be banned but I don’t think they’re the brightest. 

I think it's funny how some seem to think most football fans (apart for themselves of course) are idiots.

Have you never sung a silly song at a football match?

The Germans are apparently not put out by a silly children's song, so why might you be?

 

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4 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I'd rather personally not chant about something regarding World War 2, as it was horrific for both sides and many good German people were killed, and that was something that happened a long time ago now that my generation had nothing to do with. Time to move on basically.

However, I don't think those who do chant it should be banned from Football matches, just strikes me as another case of shaming those who haven't moved on with the super PC society we now have. 

Yeah we completely agree on your 1st paragraph. It sounds like you yourself are PC. It's just about being thoughtful and respectful, isn't it.

I'm also not bothered about it being banned. 

An aside, I was OTT writing that only morons sing it. I meant that it is a moronic chant to sing, which is different. We all act like morons sometimes!

 

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38 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

People who rush to condemn on a false premise simply have no idea what they are talking about, apparently just determined to take false offence on behalf of others.

You're going to be at the England game singing it then and then subsequently banned I assume?

No? So are you... taking offence on behalf of others too here?

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27 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

It's wanky whoever does it. 

However, the majority of us on this forum are English, hence why we are discussing its wankiness in relation to England supporters cheapening the experience of a war that ended 76 years ago, by singing songs from the war as some sort of "bants". 

If you think harking on about WW2 during football matches is fine, great. I am one that finds it - and the behaviour of quite a lot of England fans - cringe-making. One of the many things that makes non-football fans think all football fans are morons.

As I'm not an Albanian or a Croat, or speak the lingo, I don't hold that many opinions about their fans providing they don't harass black players.

The poster has been mentioning nationalism and patriotism in his posts. Right across Europe fans sing patriotic and nationalistic songs. The Scots do. The Welsh do. The Norther Irish do. All three have their own cultural characteristics. 

Football is a culture within itself. Moronic? It has like many cultures its own behaviours others do not understand. Ultimately that is what this is about. Football has been trying to purge a culture. There is a unpleasant snobbery present.

Ten German bombs is a song sung by England fans. These England fans come from a clear demographic group. The song is absurd. Its a joke. There is no malevolence to it. Yet authority want fans banned for singing something absurd. That is wrong.

8 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Of course. I’m not suggesting for a moment that other countries don’t have their own versions of the Sun or that other countries don’t have songs that are about their dislike of others rather than pride in themselves. Of course not. But the thread and the post I was responding to were about England fans and their song.

Yes, I acknowledged it was my perception. It’s a perception others have (see above) and I said I agree with it.

For what it’s worth, I have a similar view around songs at City games. Far rather hear the ones that are about City and about our players, rather than the ones that are about how much we hate the opponents. Not always - some can be clever and funny, but the endless ‘xxx is a s#### I want to go home’ does get rather tedious sometimes!

And would you want fans banned for being different to you .. That is what it is here. Banning for? Being different to what authority wants in its stadiums.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

The poster has been mentioning nationalism and patriotism in his posts. Right across Europe fans sing patriotic and nationalistic songs. The Scots do. The Welsh do. The Norther Irish do. All three have their own cultural characteristics. 

Football is a culture within itself. Moronic? It has like many cultures its own behaviours others do not understand. Ultimately that is what this is about. Football has been trying to purge a culture. There is a unpleasant snobbery present.

Ten German bombs is a song sung by England fans. These England fans come from a clear demographic group. The song is absurd. Its a joke. There is no malevolence to it. Yet authority want fans banned for singing something absurd. That is wrong.

And would you want fans banned for being different to you .. That is what it is here. Banning for? Being different to what authority wants in its stadiums.

 

 

Not sure why you’re asking me about banning fans. I’ve never mentioned that. If you read my post that you responded to you’ll see that I said “if people want to sing them, fine”. 

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4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The poster has been mentioning nationalism and patriotism in his posts. Right across Europe fans sing patriotic and nationalistic songs. The Scots do. The Welsh do. The Norther Irish do. All three have their own cultural characteristics. 

Football is a culture within itself. Moronic? It has like many cultures its own behaviours others do not understand. Ultimately that is what this is about. Football has been trying to purge a culture. There is a unpleasant snobbery present.

Ten German bombs is a song sung by England fans. These England fans come from a clear demographic group. The song is absurd. Its a joke. There is no malevolence to it. Yet authority want fans banned for singing something absurd. That is wrong.

This is very poor logic.

If the authorities wanted to ban a demographic group from England games there would be much better ways of doing it than a randomly picking on a tiny amount over this one song. You're making a mental leap between "fans banned for singing a song" and "fans belonging to a demographic group being banned". The majority of fans may belong to that group, but that doesn't mean those two statements follow.

Do you apply this same thought process whenever anything is banned from football? When we banned racist chanting was that wrong because it's trying to purge a culture? What about people getting drunk and fighting in the stands?

Personally I don't think people should be banned for singing it for the record, but not for the reasons in your post.

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12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I think it's funny how some seem to think most football fans (apart for themselves of course) are idiots.

Have you never sung a silly song at a football match?

The Germans are apparently not put out by a silly children's song, so why might you be?

 

Grown ups singing a silly children's song is embarrassing.

A whole load of them doing it and thinking they've just put the Germans in their place is beyond embarrassing. 

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27 minutes ago, Big C said:

Yeah, they were great days 3 day weeks, power cuts, Vietnam, IRA Bombings, and Maggie Thatcher.

and of course there isnt any terrorist bombings, wars and crap politicians going on at the moment.

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1 minute ago, mozo said:

Grown ups singing a silly children's song is embarrassing.

A whole load of them doing it and thinking they've just put the Germans in their place is beyond embarrassing. 

That's just your interpretation in both cases, not altogether surprising after your OTT outrage earlier in the thread.

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15 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I think it's funny how some seem to think most football fans (apart for themselves of course) are idiots.

Have you never sung a silly song at a football match?

The Germans are apparently not put out by a silly children's song, so why might you be?

 

I don’t think that most football fans sing it so therefore I’m not sure what relevance that has.

I’m not bothered what Germans think of it. I just think it’s odd to go to a football match and sing a song about a 75 year old war. 

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10 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The poster has been mentioning nationalism and patriotism in his posts. Right across Europe fans sing patriotic and nationalistic songs. 

 

 

Maybe they’re different things though. It was De Gaulle who said ‘patriotism is when love of your own people comes first, nationalism is when hate for people other than your own comes first’

(I looked up his quotes to check that one and whatever else he may have done he came up with some great quotes! “Since a politician never believes what he says, he is surprised when others believe him”!)

 

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4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The poster has been mentioning nationalism and patriotism in his posts. Right across Europe fans sing patriotic and nationalistic songs. The Scots do. The Welsh do. The Norther Irish do. All three have their own cultural characteristics. 

Football is a culture within itself. Moronic? It has like many cultures its own behaviours others do not understand. Ultimately that is what this is about. Football has been trying to purge a culture. There is a unpleasant snobbery present.

Ten German bombs is a song sung by England fans. These England fans come from a clear demographic group. The song is absurd. Its a joke. There is no malevolence to it. Yet authority want fans banned for singing something absurd. That is wrong.

 

 

 

First par. No one is disputing that. I agreed with you.

Second par. It isn't me - a football fan - calling football fans morons. The erudite discussions on here about all manner of subjects disproves that. However, fans that sing songs about WW2 "at" Czech fans (fans from a country that was actually Allied in WW2) aren't exactly helping the perception of football fans as dim.  It has nothing to do with snobbery. Some fans are their worst enemy and have dragged football's name through the mud in all kinds of ways.

I'm not suggesting this song is in that category and I don't agree with banning it (not that it actually has been banned, that is just some suggestion), but I think this discussion shows that quite a few English people think singing the song is stupid and should die out. I never heard it at England games in the 70s and early 80s. Quite why it became a "thing" in the last 30 years is somewhat of a mystery.

It seems to me you're attempting to turn any criticism of it into a class-based thing, which is nonsense. "England fans come from a clear demographic". A perusal of people arrested at England matches will show you're wrong: some are public school educated; some have been City traders.

Your class-based analysis of football songs is also quite ironic in that you seem to dismiss other sorts of class-based analysis as "lefty": something I'd never call you, having read your opinions on here.

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13 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Not sure why you’re asking me about banning fans. I’ve never mentioned that. If you read my post that you responded to you’ll see that I said “if people want to sing them, fine”. 

Yes I read your posts v post. You called English nationalism backward. Its a similar view to the one authority have of a section of England fans. Slowly that culture is being erased. 

8 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

This is very poor logic.

If the authorities wanted to ban a demographic group from England games there would be much better ways of doing it than a randomly picking on a tiny amount over this one song. Y

Its not a tiny amount. England away v Wembley is a world of difference. There has been an incredible shift at Wembley in twenty years. You do not have to just ban to homogenise a support. 

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3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Yes I read your posts v post. You called English nationalism backward. Its a similar view to the one authority have of a section of England fans. Slowly that culture is being erased. 

Its not a tiny amount. England away v Wembley is a world of difference. There has been an incredible shift at Wembley in twenty years. You do not have to just ban to homogenise a support. 

Again, read what I wrote - or don’t deliberately misquote it.

I did not say ‘backward’, I said  ‘backward looking’ . Two entirely different things.

And, in a discussion that’s basically about singing songs that endlessly hark back to WW2, I think my point is made.

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32 minutes ago, Big C said:

Yeah, they were great days 3 day weeks, power cuts, Vietnam, IRA Bombings, and Maggie Thatcher.

There will always be problems and I haven't said everything was perfect in the 70's!

Vietnam had nothing to do with the quality of life in this country.

While the IRA bombs were horrible, I'm pretty sure the casualties in England were not as bad as they have been from similar atrocities this century.

Maggie Thatcher - no mention of mortuaries overflowing and rubbish piled high in the streets under Callaghan then?

As a youngster I thoroughly enjoyed time at home during the power cuts - then there was City 5 Millwall 2. Leeds 0 City 1 on midweek afternoons. Have you forgotten City getting promoted in '76 too? Fantastic memories.

Oh, and Bristol had at least twice as many pubs - comparatively very good times afaic.

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1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

First par. No one is disputing that. I agreed with you.

Second par. It isn't me - a football fan - calling football fans morons. The erudite discussions on here about all manner of subjects disproves that. However, fans that sing songs about WW2 "at" Czech fans (fans from a country that was actually Allied in WW2) aren't exactly helping the perception of football fans as dim.  It has nothing to do with snobbery. Some fans are their worst enemy and have dragged football's name through the mud in all kinds of ways.

I'm not suggesting this song is in that category and I don't agree with banning it (not that it actually has been banned, that is just some suggestion), but I think this discussion shows that quite a few English people think singing the song is stupid and should die out. I never heard it at England games in the 70s and early 80s. Quite why it became a "thing" in the last 30 years is somewhat of a mystery.

It seems to me you're attempting to turn any criticism of it into a class-based thing, which is nonsense. "England fans come from a clear demographic". A perusal of people arrested at England matches will show you're wrong: some are public school educated; some have been City traders.

Your class-based analysis of football songs is also quite ironic in that you seem to dismiss other sorts of class-based analysis as "lefty": something I'd never call you, having read your opinions on here.

You equate violence there with something else. Songs evolve the great escape appeared in 96/97? So did ten German bombers. Just songs. Both are eccentric, absurd, silly or your negative dim. The no departed 365 England fans forum featured new songs and there were no mysteries. 

I vote labour .. Patriotic and proud of my community and Country bit like many England fans. You showed your self up there .. Know where your going. 

Large swathes of England support at away games are C2's and D Bristol City's are. Its these groups that have had their behaviours targeted. Wembley is a world away. England fans since 2017 v Germany have been banned for singing that song. Its a drip drip approach. Wembley's ticketing, stewarding, the environment does not encourage large scale vociferous fan participation. A Football culture is dying out at Wembley. 

  

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