10 German bombers

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 

Oh, and Bristol had at least twice as many pubs - comparatively very good times afaic.

 

Aye, but they were serving shite beer.

 

[mozo]

22 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

That's just your interpretation in both cases, not altogether surprising after your OTT outrage earlier in the thread.

So can I assume then that you think that a whole load of fans singing silly children's songs and thinking they've just put the Germans in their place is a positive thing?

[Med/MadHatter]

Spent many years working and living in Germany, loved going to football over there, magnificent fans, great people, nobody mentioned the war, (apart from one ex U Boat sailor!), they educate their schoolchildren on the horrors of war and as a nation they look forward to a new world, I hate all this Dambusters and all the other shit we seem to revel in when it comes to playing against the "Die mannshaft", quite frankly it's bloody embarrassing 

[Nogbad the Bad]

Just now, Red-Robbo said:

 

Aye, but they were serving shite beer.

 

That's true Robbo, except the White Horse, W-O-T where I discovered Draught Bass straight from the barrel. Beautiful stuff.

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 minutes ago, mozo said:

So can I assume then that you think that a whole load of fans singing silly children's songs and thinking they've just put the Germans in their place is a positive thing?

I don't think that's the intention.

[lenred]

15 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Again, read what I wrote - or don’t deliberately misquote it.

I did not say ‘backward’, I said  ‘backward looking’ . Two entirely different things.

And, in a discussion that’s basically about singing songs that endlessly hark back to WW2, I think my point is made.

Loves misquoting and twisting arguments to suit their own agenda. Wouldn’t bother engaging with them. 

[Red-Robbo]

20 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Large swathes of England support at away games are C2's and D Bristol City's are. Its these groups that have had their behaviours targeted. Wembley is a world away. England fans since 2017 v Germany have been banned for singing that song. Its a drip drip approach. Wembley's ticketing, stewarding, the environment does not encourage large scale vociferous fan participation. A Football culture is dying out at Wembley. 

  

 

Large swathes AREN'T.

For a start, it's quite expensive to follow England abroad and many in the (rather outdated in sociological terms) groups you mention cannot afford to attend such games.  My partner's sister is a regular at most England games, home and away: She's Jewish, middle-class. She doesn't fit into the rather outdated boxes you want to file people into.

What has killed atmosphere in Wembley off is not people thinking singing 10 German Bombers is naff, but the price of tickets and the numbers there on corporate jollies.  You have the place packed with people more interested in a work piss-up than the game.  Even before Covid, half the seats were empty for 15 minutes after half-time. 

By the way, can you explain who "banned" the song and how this so-called prohibition is enforced? As some fans are still singing it, it doesn't seem to be "banned" very effectively.

[Jim Davey]

18 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

There will always be problems and I haven't said everything was perfect in the 70's!

Vietnam had nothing to do with the quality of life in this country.

While the IRA bombs were horrible, I'm pretty sure the casualties in England were not as bad as they have been from similar atrocities this century.

Maggie Thatcher - no mention of mortuaries overflowing and rubbish piled high in the streets under Callaghan then?

As a youngster I thoroughly enjoyed time at home during the power cuts - then there was City 5 Millwall 2. Leeds 0 City 1 on midweek afternoons. Have you forgotten City getting promoted in '76 too? Fantastic memories.

Oh, and Bristol had at least twice as many pubs - comparatively very good times afaic.

1976 probably the best summer ever to be a city fan with all that lovely weather.

[Nogbad the Bad]

4 minutes ago, Jim Davey said:

1976 probably the best summer ever to be a city fan with all that lovely weather.

Yep, promotion, off to the Council House to celebrate with the team, then nothing on my mind (apart from girls) except waiting for the fixture list to come out.

Then off to Highbury to watch Cheese stun Arsenal and the football world by notching a superb winner.

Huge shame about the following Tuesday, but truly great times.

 

[swanker]

1 hour ago, Big C said:

Yeah, they were great days 3 day weeks, power cuts, Vietnam, IRA Bombings, and Maggie Thatcher.

And the summers were hotter and went on much longer!

[swanker]

24 minutes ago, Med/MadHatter said:

Spent many years working and living in Germany, loved going to football over there, magnificent fans, great people, nobody mentioned the war, 

Don’t expect they do mention it, seeing that their nation was responsible for the greatest conflict in the history of mankind where millions of innocent men woman and children were slaughtered!

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, swanker said:

Don’t expect they do mention it, seeing that their nation was responsible for the greatest conflict in the history of mankind where millions of innocent men woman and children were slaughtered!

 

The number of present day Germans who are in any way involved in that must number in the low hundreds out of 80 million.

People can't adopt a position where they say "I'm not responsible for the Slave Trade that Britons carried out in the past" and also say "Present day Germans are responsible for the atrocities Germans carried on in the past".

In both cases, no shame attaches to those not actually involved.

[Cowshed]

33 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Large swathes AREN'T.

For a start, it's quite expensive to follow England abroad and many in the (rather outdated in sociological terms) groups you mention cannot afford to attend such games.  My partner's sister is a regular at most England games, home and away: JShe's Jewish, middle-class. She doesn't fit into the rather outdated boxes you want to file people into.

What has killed atmosphere in Wembley off is not people thinking singing 10 German Bombers is naff, but the price of tickets and the numbers there on corporate jollies.  You have the place packed with people more interested in a work piss-up than the game.  even before Covid, half the seats were empty for 15 minutes after half-time. 

By the way, can you explain who "banned" the song and how this so-called prohibition is enforced? As some fans are still singing it, it doesn't seem to be "banned" very effectively.

Large swathes are. Following England away is not that expensive and sometimes can be ludicrously cheap, I paid £1.50 prior to taxes being added for a flight to Amsterdam to see England, which is why for decades using Bristol City as an example a large section of support come from the less affluent South Bristol. This is repeated across club after club for England's fans. Cheap and cheerful budget flights opened up the wold trips to Estonia, Poland, Slovakia even Albania via Athens was -£250 return you will get the vision and all this cheap beer, cheap everything becomes easily accessible. Travel is cheaper v the eighties and nineties for the less affluent England fans, the supply and demand of tickets is more difficult. 

What has killed atmosphere at Wembley is a restructuring of support and culture. Its been going on for years. If tickets are redirected away from particular groups their loud behaviour diminishes. Its gentrification. And here authority want to gentrify songs.   

Your last question in 2017 at the Irish pub in Berlin Zoologischer fans were videoed singing that song, it also happened in the stadium, fans are thus identified and banned via revoking England memberships. Its occurred at other games.

[swanker]

4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

The number of present day Germans who are in any way involved in that must number in the low hundreds out of 80 million.

People can't adopt a position where they say "I'm not responsible for the Slave Trade that Britons carried out in the past" and also say "Present day Germans are responsible for the atrocities Germans carried on in the past".

In both cases, no shame attaches to those not actually involved.

I wasn’t talking about the slave trade I was talking about modern history. I don’t know a single person who’s family were involved in the slave trade. 
The German people who don’t like to mention the war are most probably the children and grandchildren of the people who voted Hitler into power. 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

 

Your last question in 2017 at the Irish pub in Berlin Zoologischer fans were videoed singing that song, it also happened in the stadium, fans are thus identified and banned via revoking England memberships. Its occurred at other games.

 

 

 

So how come you hear it all the time still? Including among the limited number of fans allowed to attend Wembley for Euro matches.

I suggest there might be other naughties  committed by the group in Berlin you mention that got them banned.

Can you point to anywhere where it has been written that your membership of the England Supporters Travel Club will be revoked if you sing 10 German Bombers?

 

(BTW you might be able to get budget flights and budget hotels much of the year, but try finding them during major tournaments or big football matches: My sister-in-law and her husband spend thousands every year following England)

 

[Redinthehead]

Just now, swanker said:

I wasn’t talking about the slave trade I was talking about modern history. I don’t know a single person who’s family were involved in the slave trade. 
The German people who don’t like to mention the war are most probably the children and grandchildren of the people who voted Hitler into power. 

Jesus Christ. Grow up.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, swanker said:

I wasn’t talking about the slave trade I was talking about modern history. I don’t know a single person who’s family were involved in the slave trade. 
The German people who don’t like to mention the war are most probably the children and grandchildren of the people who voted Hitler into power. 

 

Some of us may be people whose ancestors were involved in the Slave Trade - or colonial atrocities committed by the British.

It doesn't matter. The sins of the father are not those of the son or grandson or great-great-great grandson.

 

[lenred]

7 minutes ago, swanker said:

I wasn’t talking about the slave trade I was talking about modern history. I don’t know a single person who’s family were involved in the slave trade. 
The German people who don’t like to mention the war are most probably the children and grandchildren of the people who voted Hitler into power. 

And 99.9999% of them are not in any way proud of the actions of some of their forefathers and mothers. But it was 80 years ago. What relevance does it have to today though. ? None whatsoever.  It wasn’t them that carried out the terrors. 
For the record the Germans do a damned good job of trying to ensure that the ills of the past do not rise again. The horrors of their countrymen’s actions in the 30’s and 40’s are not hidden away but actively taught and openly discussed in an adult manner. Unlike many of the atrocities of our countrymen in the past.  

[swanker]

5 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Some of us may be people whose ancestors were involved in the Slave Trade - or colonial atrocities committed by the British.

It doesn't matter. The sins of the father are not those of the son or grandson or great-great-great grandson.

 

I’m not blaming anyone for things that happened before they were born. Just saying that as a nation, there forefathers were responsible for a lot of suffering around Europe. 
I expect that’s why they don’t mention it. 

[swanker]

12 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

Jesus Christ. Grow up.

Grow up to what?

[Jim Davey]

17 minutes ago, Redinthehead said:

Jesus Christ. Grow up.

wtf

[2015]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Yeah we completely agree on your 1st paragraph. It sounds like you yourself are PC. It's just about being thoughtful and respectful, isn't it.

I'm also not bothered about it being banned. 

An aside, I was OTT writing that only morons sing it. I meant that it is a moronic chant to sing, which is different. We all act like morons sometimes!

 

I am PC with regards to respecting the dead from tragic wars. Though I believe Political correctness has gone way too far and is killing the joy out of life

[JamesBCFC]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

There will always be problems and I haven't said everything was perfect in the 70's!

Vietnam had nothing to do with the quality of life in this country.

While the IRA bombs were horrible, I'm pretty sure the casualties in England were not as bad as they have been from similar atrocities this century.

Maggie Thatcher - no mention of mortuaries overflowing and rubbish piled high in the streets under Callaghan then?

As a youngster I thoroughly enjoyed time at home during the power cuts - then there was City 5 Millwall 2. Leeds 0 City 1 on midweek afternoons. Have you forgotten City getting promoted in '76 too? Fantastic memories.

Oh, and Bristol had at least twice as many pubs - comparatively very good times afaic.

You literally only view it as good because you were young and nostalgia.

Time to take the rose tints off.

[Cowshed]

6 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

So how come you hear it all the time still? Including among the limited number of fans allowed to attend Wembley for Euro matches.

I suggest there might be other naughties  committed by the group in Berlin you mention that got them banned.

Can you point to anywhere where it has been written that your membership of the England Supporters Travel Club will be revoked if you sing 10 German Bombers?

 

(BTW you might be able to get budget flights and budget hotels much of the year, but try finding them during major tournaments or big football matches: My sister-in-law and her husband spend thousands every year following England)

 

The singing of a song has got people banned. Why do we still hear it? People sing. Drink. Show emotions. England fans started singing that song loudly again v the Czechs. And now the authorities are going back to a intermittent focus on what they view as their anti social. 

The England travel club and Wembley is a private club and a private premises. No I will not point. As well you know private clubs enforce their own rules for all sorts and losing a membership does not have to be linked to anything criminal. There were once no restrictions on tickets .. want 150 v Brazil in the nineties no problem Sir. Tickets for away games do not meet demand frequently. Ticketless England fans .. They can be numerous to what feel like armies at tournaments. The really good boys going on the nicest FA approved get the favourable treatment .. Its the way of the world. 

BTW perhaps with respect maybe they are just not up to speed or if it costs thousands .. It costs that if you have it to spend. If you don't you will be sat on the lap top the moment easy jet announce their flights. You may even have that one person with the disposable and time to mass book every cheap flight he can find across days .. City fans have one for England trips. If your cash is limited you will become industrious and inventive and flexible. Fly coach, sleep on benches, beaches and then a train. A way is found .. And if that way is not for you it will cost thousands.

 

[Redinthehead]

22 minutes ago, swanker said:

Grow up to what?

To someone not holding the current generation responsible for the actions of previous generations. This is the whole crux of the problem with the silly song.

It’s a weird way of trying to mock opposition fans for something that has nothing to do with them or football. To use the war in this fashion is in my eyes pretty disrespectful and to feel the need to sing is, to be polite, odd.

Your first post highlighted this (in my opinion) very childish opinion of relating all current Germans to the Nazi party, hence me telling you to grow up. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

You literally only view it as good because you were young and nostalgia.

Time to take the rose tints off.

Are you OK James?

Am I correct in saying you weren't even born for decades after the 70's? If so very strange of you to butt in here thinking you know better young fellow.

Ffs, just enjoy your youth, if that's possible these days.

[Red-Robbo]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The singing of a song has got people banned. Why do we still hear it? People sing. Drink. Show emotions. England fans started singing that song loudly again v the Czechs. And now the authorities are going back to a intermittent focus on what they view as their anti social. 

The England travel club and Wembley is a private club and a private premises. No I will not point. As well you know private clubs enforce their own rules for all sorts and losing a membership does not have to be linked to anything criminal. There were once no restrictions on tickets .. want 150 v Brazil in the nineties no problem Sir. Tickets for away games do not meet demand frequently. Ticketless England fans .. They can be numerous to what feel like armies at tournaments. The really good boys going on the nicest FA approved get the favourable treatment .. Its the way of the world. 

BTW perhaps with respect maybe they are just not up to speed or if it costs thousands .. It costs that if you have it to spend. If you don't you will be sat on the lap top the moment easy jet announce their flights. You may even have that one person with the disposable and time to mass book every cheap flight he can find across days .. City fans have one for England trips. If your cash is limited you will become industrious and inventive and flexible. Fly coach, sleep on benches, beaches and then a train. A way is found .. And if that way is not for you it will cost thousands.

 

So that's a lot of words, but the long and short of it is you can't find any evidence of this ban being written anywhere in black & white and you expect us to take your word that some fans have been banned just for singing it and not for other misdemeanours.

Colour me sceptical, bruv.

With regards to your last par, my missus's sister and her husband are in their late 50s. They aren't going to sleep on park benches or beaches.  The fact that you think it's easy for people in low-wage jobs to attend international football matches tells me that you aren't quite as in tune with the C2s and Ds as you make out you are. 

 

[swanker]

52 minutes ago, lenred said:

It’s a good job they do openly discuss what happened. It’s interesting to see what effect nationalism has on people. Even after the war the German people claimed they didn’t know what was going on at the time? Sachsenhausen concentration camp was in Berlin! The Germans must have thought it was some kind of Butlins holiday camp when they saw all those families going in there.

 

[big dosser]

3 hours ago, Wealwayseatcheese said:

Just watched some of a video on YouTube of this song being sung on concourse at Wembley the other night against the Czechs. Totally embarrassing and cringeworthy. Sung by bellsniffs strutting around like peacocks clad in stone island , like homecoming heroes from battle. Video posted by a Chelsea fan.  
 

Sung by bellsniffs strutting around like peacocks clad in stone island

or 

not sung by boring politics stiffs who shop at peacocks because they cant afford stone island

[mozo]

13 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I am PC with regards to respecting the dead from tragic wars. Though I believe Political correctness has gone way too far and is killing the joy out of life

Well don't worry I'm not wading into the PC debate here!

I respect the fact that you wouldn't sing the chant and I think that's the grown up and patriotic response.

Of course people can be childish and thoughtless if they want and they shouldn't be surprised if people cringe at their 'banter'.